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Posted: 12/5/2020 12:17:01 AM EDT
I went to the Kansas City MO gun show last weekend, and one dealer had Vietnam 20 round magazines for sale. I dug through about fifty of them to locate four circle 1 magazines. By pure coincidence, each of them is a different variety. I got a right side up circle 1 (the most common variety), an upside down circle 1 (the next most common variety), and an empty circle, circle 1 mag (the least common variety). Lastly, I got a white sticker circle 1 mag, which is the most rare variety. I have been looking for one of these for years. Nobody knows for sure why circle one magazines originally had a white circular sticker on each side, but I think it was for ease of identifying a commercial, non-military magazine. Very few magazines still have these original white stickers on them, for obvious reasons. I know that I would have peeled them off of my mags if I purchased an early SP1 back in the day. Even if you did not remove them, gun cleaning solvents and oil would have caused them to disintegrate. You can tell for sure that it is a circle 1 magazine by the grey .223 floorplate AND by the early large/wide magazine stop.       
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Nobody knows ( < really??? I know many retro knuckleheads here that know exactly what they are.) for sure why circle one magazines originally had a white circular sticker on each side, but I think it was for ease of identifying a commercial, non-military magazine. Very few magazines still have these original white stickers on them, for obvious reasons. Read line 8 from this original 1964 SP1 tag. Attached File Attached File The white stickers are found not just on circle 1 mags, but on all mags that left the factory with the 5 rd block. No idea when or IF they stopped doing it. Unfired, in box, with cellophane bag (up top), anti rust tube down the barrel, Nov 11, 1964 manufacture with all accessories + a few added, NOS made in US Realist/Colt scope purchased at the same time, never mounted, sling never mounted, note the 2 mags, both with 5 rd blocks in them Attached File |
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Quoted: Nobody knows ( < really??? I know many retro knuckleheads here that know exactly what they are.) for sure why circle one magazines originally had a white circular sticker on each side, but I think it was for ease of identifying a commercial, non-military magazine. Very few magazines still have these original white stickers on them, for obvious reasons. KNOW is a big word, unless it is documented somewhere. As I said, ease of identifying commercial/non-military mags (which WERE (usually) blocked to five rounds) |
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And lets discuss that word KNOW... How do you KNOW > I got a right side up circle 1 (the most common variety), an upside down circle 1 (the next most common variety), and an empty circle, circle 1 mag (the least common variety). Lastly, I got a white sticker circle 1 mag, which is the most rare variety. I have been looking for one of these for years. Nobody knows for sure why circle one magazines originally had a white You really need to choose your words carefully, ie: what I have observed as being most common, next most common, etc. Newbies coming in may take your personal opinion as bible truth. Bold statements like you make here and in your auctions are misleading and or vague. |
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Rant over. I would like to end on a positive note. I would like to offer this member to member friendly suggestion to all. It would do us all a huge + if we all take a minute, push the keyboard away, grab the mouse and click on posts and threads by members like aeyoung, AmericanSheepDog, Olgunner, PrivateSnafu, boywonder777,and others (sorry I'm not listing other very well educated members). There are several. Check out archives for members who have left like Tgus ,scottryan, and others shown on RBR. Read and take mental notes on how they "present" new finds and information. Above mentioned all do an awesome job and leave threads open for more study and discussions. Tom, a while back I posted I'm cured of RBRD, you wrote and asked why. I never answered. I'll try to keep this brief. I NEVER liked the AR15/M16 platform, ever. I'm proficient with them, never liked them. I've got wood and steel in my blood since my Dad gave me a Kar98k back in about 1974 that he sent home from Bremen Germany (US 29th infantry combat medic). I belong to a very anal meticulous living history group and my Buddy Nick (a long ago member here) twisted my arm to do Nam displays. At the time I realized the history taught in school to my 3 children "breezed" over the Korean war and the Vietnam war, lucky if those kids got a full hour on each. I was 13 in 73 when Nam started winding down, but I knew neighborhood guys who served. Most came back, a couple didn't. A few that came back were severely wounded. I agreed with Nick that paying tribute to these heroes was way overdue. Rifles are my gig at the displays, came here to study/learn. Built what I built, sold what I sold. Saved a few for the displays. I saved what many here considered to be one of the nicer 601 replicas. Hate it. The look, the feel, the green, the duckbill.. Hate it all. BUT an important piece of history for displays. Made a lot of good friends here, several no longer post and are greatly missed. We have been blessed by aeyoung freely willing and able to share with us some very very unique pieces, blessed by AmericanSheepDog freely willing to share his hours of study of known examples and documents.. These 2 members and a very few others are the only reason I stick my nose in here to learn from them, they've taken us to a new level of truth and hopefully I run into some of the "ole Guard". I have absolutely no desire to build, can't rememeber the last time I shot the ones I've built, do keep my eyes open for less common parts to acquire only to pass them off to anyone struggling to do a true, historically correct replica. I ONLY keep what I have so I can display and pay tribute to those who served during those uneasy times in the 60s. Sold off almost all spare parts with the exception of 1 set each of replacement parts for the 601 and 602 and maybe a few other small items. I've returned to my roots of wood and steel with an emphasis on sniper rifles. I know you've been in the collector field for a long time, especially German hence your auction name Kkrad. I'd be willing to bet over the years you've seen posts on all forums where false info is posted and suddenly becomes internet "bible" and arguments arise. Prolly annoys the hell out of you. I've seen arguments over very common parts because "someone said someone told him" a part was rare when indeed it isn't. Perfect example. Several years ago, a bunch M16/AR15 ejection port doors popped up for sale as "rare, prototype" originals. No pad on the outside, and very different detent setup inside. Sellers were trying to get big money for them. I believe it was member Quiet (Rob Arnold), and Dawg180 (Sven) who both personally knew Jerry Drasen (Nesard/Sendra) informed us all that Jerry made them as he was not abe to acquire real GI port doors. To close, I am asking/requesting that everyone, when posting, choose words carefully and leave wiggle room as new info is always "just around the corner" so that future students of history will learn the real deal info. Let's all continue to make this forum the best, most correct, most informative forum possible. BTW Tom, regarding the NN or N marked aluminum followers, you asked what my none N marked ones were marked and I replied not marked. I have to correct that info. I was at my Sister's house going thru stuff I have stored there and came across a box of mags I forgot I had. Must have kept them after PrivateSnafu posted about follower casting marks. I have one each with a number 1,2,4, & 5. Maybe other members will chime in with other found markings. Stay safe in these difficult times, and everyone,, Happy Holidays! |
| OK, to satisfy “he that is all knowing and never wrong”, I will say that of the 1000+ circle 1 magazines that I have PERSONALLY HANDLED (I currently own over 150 of them) the right side up 1 variety is the most common (about 65% of the mags THAT I HAVE HANDLED), the upside down 1 variety is the second most common variety (about 30% of the mags THAT I HAVE HANDLED), and the circle without a 1 is the least common (about 5% of the mags THAT I HAVE HANDLED). The white dot (on both sides) circle 1 magazine is the most rare of the mags THAT I HAVE HANDLED. MANY fellow collectors have agreed with my assessment, so, until I learn otherwise, I will believe these figures. |
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Wow, never claimed this> he that is all knowing and never wrong. I claim to be a student of military history. Only asked that words be chosen carefully. As to the rest of your reply, you really like capitalizing as if you are the know all, end all. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. |
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Quoted: Wow, never claimed this> he that is all knowing and never wrong. I claim to be a student of military history. Only asked that words be chosen carefully. As to the rest of your reply, you really like capitalizing as if you are the know all, end all. Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Rob, I was NOT talking about YOU, I was talking about the ONLY entity that is all knowing and never wrong, and he is my witness. I do not know what the rules on this forum are about religion, so I left it at that, and changed my wording to just personal experience. |
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*Enters room cause I have two old colt mags, one that my dad brought home from nam, complete with a couple '67 headstamped rounds still in it* *sees the commotion* *checks to see if GD* *is confused* Uh...I'm just going to uh...yeah.....deep breaths guys..... So, both of my mags are Colt. My dad's has that green patina on it. The other came with my '83 SP1 I picked up recently from a friend, it is more Silver. I'll go look for any other markings on them, take some pics and maybe post them for you to look at. |
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Quoted: *Enters room cause I have two old colt mags, one that my dad brought home from nam, complete with a couple '67 headstamped rounds still in it* *sees the commotion* *checks to see if GD* *is confused* Uh...I'm just going to uh...yeah.....deep breaths guys..... So, both of my mags are Colt. My dad's has that green patina on it. The other came with my '83 SP1 I picked up recently from a friend, it is more Silver. I'll go look for any other markings on them, take some pics and maybe post them for you to look at. LOL, you are not wrong. |
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Quoted: *Enters room cause I have two old colt mags, one that my dad brought home from nam, complete with a couple '67 headstamped rounds still in it* *sees the commotion* *checks to see if GD* *is confused* Uh...I'm just going to uh...yeah.....deep breaths guys..... So, both of my mags are Colt. My dad's has that green patina on it. The other came with my '83 SP1 I picked up recently from a friend, it is more Silver. I'll go look for any other markings on them, take some pics and maybe post them for you to look at. I sincerely apologize ARinKCMO. There have been several private discussions by ole guard members who are a bit concerned with the way info is posted, not just me, and I felt the want to "let it out". Retroland has always been an incredible resource, and a great group of guys. A family of sorts. Even families bicker at times...  Thanks for posting, would love to see pics of the mags you mentioned to include the floor plate markings.. |
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So neither mag has any kind of marking on it, nor sticker residue. Well, both on the front have an icon that kind of look like an I and a U in Block Lettering stacked on each other. I actually took the SP1 and both mags to the range this past wednesday, and loaded both to 20 rounds, so no blocks in them. I also find it odd/interesting that the actual 60's GI mag has .223 on the baseplate, while the 80's civilian mag has 5.56mm on it. Is that correct? My dad's not a Gun Guy, so he wouldn't have swapped out parts. This literally was in his sock drawer in a small bag with some vietnamese coins till I got my first AR 20+ years ago. He gave it to me while saying "I think this should work in your new M16?" (For reference I'm rather new to the Retro AR world. I wanted to build one of the Brownell's for my dad, as a sort of Tribute gun. A friend is having some financial things going on and he's liquidating some of his collection, knew I wanted this kind of setup so gave me a very good price on the SP1. I just need to swap the birdcage out for a 3 prong and my 'tribute' rifle will be complete.) |
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Quoted: I sincerely apologize ARinKCMO. There have been several private discussions by ole guard members who are a bit concerned with the way info is posted, not just me, and I felt the want to "let it out". Retroland has always been an incredible resource, and a great group of guys. A family of sorts. Even families bicker at times... Thanks for posting, would love to see pics of the mags you mentioned to include the floor plate markings.. No problem, I've been around Arf for a while! I'll get some pics here shortly. Might make a seperate thread cause I've wanted to show of the SP1 for a bit now as well. |
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Quoted: Rant over. I would like to end on a positive note. I would like to offer this member to member friendly suggestion to all. It would do us all a huge + if we all take a minute, push the keyboard away, grab the mouse and click on posts and threads by members like aeyoung, AmericanSheepDog, Olgunner, PrivateSnafu, boywonder777,and others (sorry I'm not listing other very well educated members). There are several. Check out archives for members who have left like Tgus ,scottryan, and others shown on RBR. Read and take mental notes on how they "present" new finds and information. Above mentioned all do an awesome job and leave threads open for more study and discussions. Tom, a while back I posted I'm cured of RBRD, you wrote and asked why. I never answered. I'll try to keep this brief. I NEVER liked the AR15/M16 platform, ever. I'm proficient with them, never liked them. I've got wood and steel in my blood since my Dad gave me a Kar98k back in about 1974 that he sent home from Bremen Germany (US 29th infantry combat medic). I belong to a very anal meticulous living history group and my Buddy Nick (a long ago member here) twisted my arm to do Nam displays. At the time I realized the history taught in school to my 3 children "breezed" over the Korean war and the Vietnam war, lucky if those kids got a full hour on each. I was 13 in 73 when Nam started winding down, but I knew neighborhood guys who served. Most came back, a couple didn't. A few that came back were severely wounded. I agreed with Nick that paying tribute to these heroes was way overdue. Rifles are my gig at the displays, came here to study/learn. Built what I built, sold what I sold. Saved a few for the displays. I saved what many here considered to be one of the nicer 601 replicas. Hate it. The look, the feel, the green, the duckbill.. Hate it all. BUT an important piece of history for displays. Made a lot of good friends here, several no longer post and are greatly missed. We have been blessed by aeyoung freely willing and able to share with us some very very unique pieces, blessed by AmericanSheepDog freely willing to share his hours of study of known examples and documents.. These 2 members and a very few others are the only reason I stick my nose in here to learn from them, they've taken us to a new level of truth and hopefully I run into some of the "ole Guard". I have absolutely no desire to build, can't rememeber the last time I shot the ones I've built, do keep my eyes open for less common parts to acquire only to pass them off to anyone struggling to do a true, historically correct replica. I ONLY keep what I have so I can display and pay tribute to those who served during those uneasy times in the 60s. Sold off almost all spare parts with the exception of 1 set each of replacement parts for the 601 and 602 and maybe a few other small items. I've returned to my roots of wood and steel with an emphasis on sniper rifles. I know you've been in the collector field for a long time, especially German hence your auction name Kkrad. I'd be willing to bet over the years you've seen posts on all forums where false info is posted and suddenly becomes internet "bible" and arguments arise. Prolly annoys the hell out of you. I've seen arguments over very common parts because "someone said someone told him" a part was rare when indeed it isn't. Perfect example. Several years ago, a bunch M16/AR15 ejection port doors popped up for sale as "rare, prototype" originals. No pad on the outside, and very different detent setup inside. Sellers were trying to get big money for them. I believe it was member Quiet (Rob Arnold), and Dawg180 (Sven) who both personally knew Jerry Drasen (Nesard/Sendra) informed us all that Jerry made them as he was not abe to acquire real GI port doors. To close, I am asking/requesting that everyone, when posting, choose words carefully and leave wiggle room as new info is always "just around the corner" so that future students of history will learn the real deal info. Let's all continue to make this forum the best, most correct, most informative forum possible. BTW Tom, regarding the NN or N marked aluminum followers, you asked what my none N marked ones were marked and I replied not marked. I have to correct that info. I was at my Sister's house going thru stuff I have stored there and came across a box of mags I forgot I had. Must have kept them after PrivateSnafu posted about follower casting marks. I have one each with a number 1,2,4, & 5. Maybe other members will chime in with other found markings. Stay safe in these difficult times, and everyone,, Happy Holidays! I cannot say I’ve ever known a Fudd in my life who has so much hate and disgust for the fantastic plastic rifle. I too like wood rifles like you do but I love the ar15/m16 platform. I know the AR is not for everyone but the amount of hate spewing out into the screen is insane for an inanimate object. Just a wild guess, you probably wouldn’t care if an assault weapons ban passed because it’s not a wood gun. |
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Quoted: So neither mag has any kind of marking on it, nor sticker residue. Well, both on the front have an icon that kind of look like an I and a U in Block Lettering stacked on each other. I actually took the SP1 and both mags to the range this past wednesday, and loaded both to 20 rounds, so no blocks in them. I also find it odd/interesting that the actual 60's GI mag has .223 on the baseplate, while the 80's civilian mag has 5.56mm on it. Is that correct? My dad's not a Gun Guy, so he wouldn't have swapped out parts. This literally was in his sock drawer in a small bag with some vietnamese coins till I got my first AR 20+ years ago. He gave it to me while saying "I think this should work in your new M16?" (For reference I'm rather new to the Retro AR world. I wanted to build one of the Brownell's for my dad, as a sort of Tribute gun. A friend is having some financial things going on and he's liquidating some of his collection, knew I wanted this kind of setup so gave me a very good price on the SP1. I just need to swap the birdcage out for a 3 prong and my 'tribute' rifle will be complete.) The U I,, depends on what direction you look at it. Can look like a U and I -- it's been stated in the past it could stand for Universal Industries,,, or a CH Colt ( I think Hartford, maybe Harvey??) I forget. .223 marked floorplates were early to mid 60s, 5.56 are later 60s and up. I forget the cutoff date. As for colors, this info is pertinent to any anodized part: Attached File |
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Quoted: I cannot say I’ve ever known a Fudd in my life who has so much hate and disgust for the fantastic plastic rifle. I too like wood rifles like you do but I love the ar15/m16 platform. I know the AR is not for everyone but the amount of hate spewing out into the screen is insane for an inanimate object. Just a wild guess, you probably wouldn’t care if an assault weapons ban passed because it’s not a wood gun. A very wrong guess. I live in one of the toughest ban states, did my part to fight against every law passed going back to the original 1994 AWB. And to boot. Federally there was a "sunset" as it was referred to on the 94 AWB.. The sunset never happened here and it got worse.. I'm a huge 2A fan, not just for my personal favorites. Back then, when helping my LGS at shows, it was crazy hard to convince hunters and old timers that if it passed, one day their semi .22 squirrel gun, or the semi shotty they use for hunting would go on the chopping block.. Sure enough it happened. As I mentioned above I was at my Sisters going thru stuff recently. I have to store many items out of state. And OK,, yes I did state "I hate it",,, maybe too strong and I'm not any kind of "hater", so I'll change it to, there is nothing I like about them except the significant military historical importance of the platform. Hope that clears thing a bit. |
| I need to go back through my mag stash and see what styles of “circle 1” I have. I know I have several. I have to chuckle and cringe a bit about the white sticker mags. When I first started getting into retro rifles about 10 years ago I got a couple mags and a pile of 60s dated ammo from someone that had an SP1 in the 60s and had long since sold it off. Both mags were like new and “had” white stickers on them at the time... those got cleaned off almost immediately when I got them home. Oh well. |
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Quoted: Here's some quick pics of the my mags. As mentioned the green on is my dad's, the silver is the SP1s (I should mention my dad was USMC and was in country 66-67.) https://i1.lensdump.com/i/0KUAZk.jpg https://i1.lensdump.com/i/0KU2Ue.jpg https://i.lensdump.com/i/0KUWmx.jpg https://i.lensdump.com/i/0KUiuH.jpg Great read here> https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Universal_20_Round_Magazines__and_Coltandapos_s_/123-662858/#i6691667 |
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Quoted: A very wrong guess. I live in one of the toughest ban states, did my part to fight against every law passed going back to the original 1994 AWB. And to boot. Federally there was a "sunset" as it was referred to on the 94 AWB.. The sunset never happened here and it got worse.. I'm a huge 2A fan, not just for my personal favorites. Back then, when helping my LGS at shows, it was crazy hard to convince hunters and old timers that if it passed, one day their semi .22 squirrel gun, or the semi shotty they use for hunting would go on the chopping block.. Sure enough it happened. As I mentioned above I was at my Sisters going thru stuff recently. I have to store many items out of state. And OK,, yes I did state "I hate it",,, maybe too strong and I'm not any kind of "hater", so I'll change it to, there is nothing I like about them except the significant military historical importance of the platform. Hope that clears thing a bit. Quoted: Quoted: I cannot say I’ve ever known a Fudd in my life who has so much hate and disgust for the fantastic plastic rifle. I too like wood rifles like you do but I love the ar15/m16 platform. I know the AR is not for everyone but the amount of hate spewing out into the screen is insane for an inanimate object. Just a wild guess, you probably wouldn’t care if an assault weapons ban passed because it’s not a wood gun. A very wrong guess. I live in one of the toughest ban states, did my part to fight against every law passed going back to the original 1994 AWB. And to boot. Federally there was a "sunset" as it was referred to on the 94 AWB.. The sunset never happened here and it got worse.. I'm a huge 2A fan, not just for my personal favorites. Back then, when helping my LGS at shows, it was crazy hard to convince hunters and old timers that if it passed, one day their semi .22 squirrel gun, or the semi shotty they use for hunting would go on the chopping block.. Sure enough it happened. As I mentioned above I was at my Sisters going thru stuff recently. I have to store many items out of state. And OK,, yes I did state "I hate it",,, maybe too strong and I'm not any kind of "hater", so I'll change it to, there is nothing I like about them except the significant military historical importance of the platform. Hope that clears thing a bit. Cleared it up 100%. Makes perfect sense now. You are right about convincing hunters and old timers about other semi auto’s. The gun grabbers won’t stop. I could be wrong but I read somewhere once that Hillary tried to get hunting scopes over 4x banned in the late 90’s saying that no one needed a sniper rifle as she was referring to hunting rifles with 3-9x or greater magnification scopes. Sorry to hijack the post. OP, those mags are a good find. |
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