[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Appleseed Shoots (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 8/2/2007 3:38:26 PM EDT
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All the info's available at this link, including schedule. www.appleseedinfo.org |
| I recently did an appleseed over 4th of july weekend. I cannot stress how much this program helped my shooting ability. The first day, I only qualified at 100m (on a 25m scaled down target). By the last day, I had scored a personal high of 212 on the AQT, and was consistently getting hits out to 400m on the 25m scaled target. With my ak74 (not the best choice by any means for a long range weapon) I was consistently hitting 5 out of 5 at 300yards real distance. We had a 9 year old there with a dedicated 22lr ar15. At the start of day one, he was lucky to get all of his shots actually on the paper at 25m. By the last day, he shot a 195 on the AQT (sharpshooter score, almost expert!) and was getting consistent hits at 300m. The appleseed standard, is to have all the shooters at the event qualified out to 300m. Pretty impressive considering about 40% of the shooters on day one will not qualify at any range, 40% might qualify at 100m, and hardly anyone (who hasnt had real training) will qualify past 200m. If you havent had a chance to do one of these shoots, you should really look into it. Its a great way to learn to shoot better and learn some interesting revolutionary war history. |
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I just missed you. I was there Saturday through Thursday for the RBC and left for home Thursday afternoon. Folks seem to have some trouble understanding that the basics, the principles of firing a good shot can be taught/learned at 25 meters. The difference comes when you push the range out to several hundred yards and the combination of elevation changes (to compensate for increaseing ranges) and reading the wind and compensating for that become a necessary part of the "game". On Tuesday I worked with an 11 and 13 year old who had been shooting .22's for the first couple of days. We worked on the basics at 25 meters with the .22's, then switched over to their centerfires to insure we cured any FBJs that showed up with the louder noise and greater recoil. When their groups shrank back down they went to the full distance range with their dad and fired at 100, 200, 300 and 400 yds. to learn their "come ups". That evening they went back to the full distance range and shot the pop ups with their dad and the other adults. The 13 year old was shooting an SKS with a tech sight rear sight. He was able to work over the 200 and 300 yd. pop ups pretty easily (the center 200 and 300 yd. pop ups were set up to be shoulder and head shots while the outside pop ups were full torso targets). The 11 year old ran the pop ups from 200 all the way out through the 400 yd. pop ups with his mini 14. When a program of instruction shows results like that, you know the stuff works. Niether of these boys were absolute newbies to shooting, but the steady improvement they showed from start to finish confirmed the value of the program. for 3 days at 25 meters spend a couple hours going over some repeat training, only with their centerfires the second time |
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Appleseeds are basic rifle marksmanship. When I say basic a lot of folks don't see the value in it as most folks believe they are better than "basic". Most of the shooting is at 25 meters, because you can learn the basics at 25 meters (the military used to teach the initial stages of rifle marksmanship at 25 meters and may still). Again many folks don't see the value in 25 meter training. Let me say here that the average for shooting a 210 or higher (rifleman - expert) on a 25 meter AQT is only about 10 to 12% across a two day Appleseed. The combination of no bench/sandbags, the time limits, the mag changes, the small targets (to target size simulates 100, 200, 300 and 400 yards) and multple targets per stage all contribute to new challenges for most shooters. The AQT has been in use since the days of the 03 Springfield and US Enfield so it's not something new, but it is still effective training for what it is. I've seen children as young as 11 to 13 go through training at 25 meters and then go to the full distance range (at Ramseur, NC) and work over the pop up targets out to 300 and 400 yds. with SKS's and Mini14's. It's basic rifle marksmanship, not run and gun, not combat carbine, not combat in a built up area. By the way, those who are active duty military don't have to pay the attendance fees, nor to children under 21 and for the rest of this year I heard if your wife goes with then she also attends free. The only cost is your gas, food, lodging and ammo. If you have a good .22 made up to simulate your MBR that's a good choice for the shooting on day one. On day two, if the range has the facilities, those showing (by their groups size/aqt scores) they are putting what they learned to good use will shoot at longer ranges - how long depends on the range facilities. The you'll see that the 25 meter training works on out there at the full distance as well. |
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Two of the four stages require reloading even if you have a magazine capacity of 10 rounds. Stages 2 and 3 require a reload and a position change. For the reload, on magazine rifles and M1's you start with 2 rounds, shoot them and then load 8. If you were shooting something like an 03 or an Enfield you start with 5 and reload 5 (if you have them on stripper clips. If you have a magazine fed rifle that only holds 5 rounds per mag. then you'd do it like the 03's, 5 and 5. The AQT shows you, teaches you, that you can shoot good groups on multiple targets from sling supported positions. Real life might not be 3 shot groups on a single target at a known distance from a bench with bags to support the rifle. Stage 1 - 10 shots, standing, in two minutes on a single target sized to look like a 100 yd. silhouette. Stage 2 - 10 shots, start standing, load 2 rounds, drop to sitting fire 2 shots on the first target, reload with 8 round, fire 3 on the first target, fire 5 on the second target, with a 50 second time limit, targets sized to look like 200 yd. silhouettes. Stage 3 - 10 shots, start standing, load 2 rounds, drop to prone, fire 2 shots on the first target, reload with 8 rounds, fire 1 shot on the first target, fire 3 shots on the center target, fire 4 shots on the last target, time limit of 60 seconds, targets sized to look like 300 yd. silhouettes. Stage 4 - 10 shots, start prone, fire prone, put 2 shots on the first target, 2 on the second target, 3 on the third target and 3 on the last target, time limit of 5 minutes, targets sized to look like 400 yd. silhouettes. Max. points for stages 1 -3 is 50 points. The score on stage 4 gets doubled so the max points there is 100 points (but it is also the hardest stage due to the size of the targets and the multiple target shifts. An Appleseed is long hours of learning, listening, trying some new things, shooting, getting down, getting up, and repeating the above. Most folks are pretty much wore out at the end of the first day and pretty stiff and sore at the start of the second day. It's a good idea to practice the position changes 2 or 3 times a week for a few weeks prior to attending the Appleseed so your body gets used to the positions. You can learn the basics with any good rifle, even a single shot, you just won't have the score you would with a rifle with a higher magazine capacity due to your lost time reloading. I've seen folks bring bolt action varmint rifles with bipods to Appleseeds. Rifles that should be really good shooting rifles - then the position changes, reloading, time limits and target transitions throw them for a loop and they end up frustrated. Hope you get to one of them this fall. Heck, since you all can go free you might thnk about going to more than one. They call it trying to drink from a fire hose - you hear/see so much at an Appleseed that you are urged to go home and practice what you've learned. With more practice comes more understanding and it will begin to come together for you better. Some of the folks that shoot a rifleman score at and Appleseed have attended an earlier Appleseed (don't know what that does to the percentages). Anyway, get ready, have fun. It works. I've seen it myself. |
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Do you mean you had "fun", or you had problems? Any ammo or mechanical issues that can't be quickly corrected makes it even tougher. It's a lot of shooting. I've seen these back up iron sights, detachable carrying handes (AR's), scope mounts (all kinds of rifles), front sights (M1's and M1A's), and even some pins come loose during a 2 day Appleseed. Loctite, or at lease regular checks on parts attached to rifles is a good thing. Making sure your rifle and ammo "play well together" prior to getting to the Appleseed is another good thng. There are a lot of folks at Appleseeds who are new/inexperienced at handling/shooting their rifles. Many folks show up who have not sighted their rifles in (some bought the rifle and ammo a day or two before the Appleseed) and really don't understand the safety, loading/unloading, adjusting the sights, etc. It's two full days and some folks struggle with the pace of instruction and activity. There's nothing wrong with taking both water and snacks to the firing line and taking a break anytime you feel like you need to leave the rifle on the mat/rug and just sit back and take a break while everyone else firing a stage (or two). The very first thing the instructors cover on Saturday morning is safety. No rifles are allowed on the line until after the safety briefing is completed. |
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At the Appleseeds the targets are supplied. The target you'll shoot the most is the 1" squares. Lots of things can be done with the 1" squares. The AQT targets are used to determine whether or not you can shoot a rifleman score of 210 or higher (out of a possible 250 points.) Those are supplied as well. It's not nearly as easy as it looks. The averages work out to about 10 to 12% of the folks attending an Appleseed shooting a 210 or higher. Of all the Appleseeds I've been to (as an instructor) in the last two years and all the RBCs (student and instructor) I've only seen two people shoot in the 240's. Both were using AR15's and both had lots of previous experience. |
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I might be interested in taking my wife to one of these - she's completely new and I am a self-taught novice, so I bet we'd get a lot out of it. However, we're the stuffy suburban types.  I take it these are friendly and courteous people and there aren't any egos to be wary of?
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Well, we're the friendly, courteous people you're looking for!  Egos .... we threw those away.
I guarantee that when you & your wife come to an Appleseed, you will get tired and sore, but you will have fun doing it! We open the firehose and feed you more information than you think you can possibly remember, but it all comes together and you will walk away with new skills to practice. Most of our shooting is at 25 yds on scaled targets to represent 100, 200, 300, & 400 yd. If you can do it at 25 yds you can do it at 500 yds. I testify to that personally. I have never shot anything over 100yds before, but last weekend I was ringing a 20" steel plate with my AR (16" barrel) consistently at 300, 400, & 500 yds So come join us for a weekend, it will be life changing usafe7ret Instructor in Training |
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Just finished a great shoot at Evansville, IN this weekend with 64 shooters on the line. Anyone from here in attendence?
Had a good mix of center fire rifles and a lot of 22's. I called the center fire line Saturday and had a fun time doing it!!
Good attentive group of shooters!! |
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I went to the Gibsonburg,Ohio shoot in August and had a ball!
I qualified "Rifleman" both days. 
Here's how I did it: I brought a "teachable attitude". A AR15 properly cleaned, lubed, and sighted in at 25M. I had purchased,and read, "Fred's Guide to becoming a Rifleman" ($16 froms Freds M14 Stocks) about 3 months before the shoot. To be honest, having been the military did help me qualify . But plenty of others who have never been in the military DO qualify! I HIGHLY recommend Appleseed to everyone on this board! Why own an expensive rifle(AR15,M1A,FAL,AR10,Garand,etc.) and NOT KNOW HOW TO HIT WITH IT??????? |
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Took my couse last weekend {22-23 Nov.} and had a good 50 person turnout. Absolutely awesome! Most fun I've had shooting. I don't know any places close {besides personal property} that I could have shot in a group and done it from prone, sitting and standing. Had the AR and just listened as best I could to the commands and waited for instruction. Got to shoot a bit and met some people. Qualified with a score of 220 on Sunday and just had fun and tried different positions and sight adjustments. Bring lots of people if...
1.Female 2.Under 21 3.Active Military ALL FREE! I even saw M1A4ME there and he checked my target for the score when I shot through another string. Thanks and getting Rifleman {Expert} was great, even if it takes more than 2 go's. Looking to make a trip down to NC, maybe in the next couple of months. |
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They are still working on the 2009 schedule.
Right now there is a good possibility of at least 3 Appleseeds in Ohio on the weekend of April 19th. One in Gibsonburg, one in Athens and one in Vienna. These aren't set in stone yet, just proposed with folks in the area working hard to get them approved (at those ranges/properties). There will most likely be more during the year and those dates will also be firmed up later. The program is growing as the number of Appleseeds and attendees grows. |
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For clarification sake the "Riflemans standard" is to be able to control anything he can see out to 500yards, also known as the Riflemans Quarter Mile.
Thats the reason for the one inch squares at 25yards. 1" at 25yards is 4moa. An average mans chest is 20" which is 4moa at 500yards. 
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Well, we had two in VA last year. Hope to have two at Black Creek again this year but haven't seen the dates yet.
There is also a strong possibility of a new DAR (Dedicated Appleseed Range) about an hour west of Richmond in Buckingham Country. If that goes through there may be several VA Appleseeds this year. |
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Quoted:
Well, we had two in VA last year. Hope to have two at Black Creek again this year but haven't seen the dates yet. There is also a strong possibility of a new DAR (Dedicated Appleseed Range) about an hour west of Richmond in Buckingham Country. If that goes through there may be several VA Appleseeds this year. Buckingham would be INCREDIBLY convenient. Please IM me any info about where this might be, along with a tentative schedule, if you have one. |
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PEVRS,
I'm hosting the Appleseeds in Buckingham. The range is a 400 yard private range in the North East corner of the county, New Canton area. We're hosting an Instructor class the end of March and hope to have an Appleseed or two here this year as well but that's tentative as of now. There will be several Appleseeds in VA this year. Dates & Locations to be announced. FirefighterEd |
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Molan,
You can shoot any sight system you want. That being said, it is recommended that you initially shoot it with iron sights. The thought process is similar to learning to drive a car. If you learn on a manual transmission then driving an automatic is a breeze. If you make Rifleman w/ Irons then you'll always know that you can do it. Of course, if you have vision issues you may need to use some type of optics. As for rifle, anything from 22LR to 30-06 works. I'd recommend magazine fed semi-auto if possible. The Ruger 10-22's are very popular due to economy of 22LR vs 5.56 or 7.62 ammo. You'll probably shoot 200 to 250 rounds, bring 400. If you don't have a mag fed semi (unlikely seeing the forum you're on) a bolt or lever gun will work. I attended my first in the spring of '08. I'm now hosting a range for Appleseeds and we'll be doing our first Instructor Boot Camp there in March, with some Appleseeds to follow. It's very inspirational and motivating. Appleseed Project FirefighterEd |
Thanks Ed, that was the info I needed. I realize the importance of learning with iron sights; for longer distances though my eyesight needs a little help. 
Sounds like my 10/22 is the best rifle for this training. Can we use 25 round mags, or do they limit us to 10 rd mags due to reload training? ETA: Also, do they go through the zeroing process for people who need to do that? |
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You can bring the 25 round mags, but the course of fire for some stages requires a reload. A stage is 10 rounds. Some are 10 in the magazine, some start with 2 in the magazine followed by a reload of 8 rounds to complete the 10 rounds fired in the stage.
Get some practice changing from standing to sitting (and back) as well as standing to prone (and back). if you don't get some practice ahead of time and get loosened up you'll be (unpleasantly) surprised at how stiff and sore you'll be by the end of the day Saturday and on Sunday morning. |
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What is the seated position? A crossed legged Indian style? that is the preferred position but if you can not get to that then there are other options but each step you take away from the crossed leg position w/ elbows on the outsides of your knees you loose stability. you even have the option of shooting the sitting positions from kneeling or standing if you "just can't" get into a good sitting position. |
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We will be scheduling three Appleseeds at Cavalier Rifle and Pistol Club near Richmond, at least one, possibly two at C2 Range Systems in Virginia Beach, and a couple more at Ed's range in Buckingham County in 2009. We also hold Mini Appleseeds at Black Creek Shooters Assn. Range near Mechanicsville on the third Sunday of the month unless I am out of state instructing. I list it in the Virginia site of the Appleseed website.
If anyone knows of a range up near Winchester that would be suitable for Appleseeds please let me know. VAshooter VA State Coordinator for Appleseed project Appleseed Instructor |
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OK guys. Here is the schedule for Virginia, or at least all of it that I have for sure.
February 15th 2009 Mini Appleseed at Black Creek near Mechanicsville, VA Starts at noon. March 15th 2009 Mini Appleseed at Black Creek near Mechanicsville, VA Starts at noon. March 27, 28, and 29 2009 3 day IBC near New Canton, VA at Ed's range in Buckingham County. May 17, 2009 Mini Appleseed at Black Creek near Mechanicsville, VA Starts at noon. May 23, 24 2009 Appleseed at Black Creek near Mechanicsville, VA Limit of 35 shooters sign up early June 13, 14 2009 Appleseed at Cavalier R & P Club near Montpelier, VA Recommend camping on site Motel will be 15 miles away. June 21, 2009 Mini Appleseed at Black Creek near Mechanicsville, VA Starts at noon. August 15, 16 2009 Appleseed at Cavalier R & P Club near Montpelier, VA Recommend camping on site Motel will be 15 miles away. October 17, 18 2009 Appleseed at Cavalier R & P Club near Montpelier, VA Recommend camping on site Motel will be 15 miles away. December 5, 6 2009 Appleseed at Black Creek near Mechanicsville, VA Limit 35 shooters sign up early We will also have at least one Appleseed at C2 Range in Virginia Beach, VA. The dates on that one have not been confirmed. We may throw in a couple more at Ed's range in Buckingham County. Y'all come, and have a good time. VAshooter |
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53vortec,
I don't have any experience with them but If I were running the Appleseed, I would allow you to shoot it if: 1. You can lock the slide back. 2. Put the safety on. 3. Remove the magazine. 4. Insert a chamber flag. If it will do those things you are good to go. I'm curious. Will it shoot under an inch at 25 meters? Does it have decent sights? Can you mount a military sling on it? If so, it will be fine. VAshooter Appleseed Instructor |
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Quoted:
53vortec, I don't have any experience with them but If I were running the Appleseed, I would allow you to shoot it if: 1. You can lock the slide back. Yes 2. Put the safety on. Yes 3. Remove the magazine. Yes 4. Insert a chamber flag. Yes If it will do those things you are good to go. I'm curious. Will it shoot under an inch at 25 meters? If I do my part. Does it have decent sights? Good adjustable peep sights. Can you mount a military sling on it? Never tried a GI, will have to check that out. If so, it will be fine. VAshooter Appleseed Instructor Thanks for the input. I actually went to an Appleseed last year (and had a good time), but burning that much .308 was tough, despite the fun. A 10/22 tricked up as a "Liberty Training Rifle" would be great, but it seemed that it'd be more economical to shoot the 9mm carbine I already have. |
| Would two 20 round magazines be enough? I know the website recommends bringing up to five. I'd really like to bring my PTR-91 (HK G3 clone) with a .22 converter in it but I may only be able to bring the two mags that come with the converter. The mags themselves are not available on their own. I am hoping that someone will produce them by that time but I am not banking on it. I have an M4 styled AR that has a 22 conversion that will have plenty of mags but I was planning on letting my girlfriend use it if she does not have a 10/22 by then. |
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If two mags is all you have then two mags. will do.
Most of the shooting will be 5 shot groups from 1 magazine while working on positions, the six steps to firing a shot, etc. During some portions (AQT and maybe some practice for mag changes) you'll load two rounds in one magazine and 8 in the other and do a mag change in the middle of the 10 roung stage. If two mags are what you have it's enough. If one goes south on you during the Appleseed you can still get buy with one. Hope to see you at one of them. You'll be easy to find, we only occasionally see an H&K at an Appleseed. |
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Quoted:
If two mags is all you have then two mags. will do. Most of the shooting will be 5 shot groups from 1 magazine while working on positions, the six steps to firing a shot, etc. During some portions (AQT and maybe some practice for mag changes) you'll load two rounds in one magazine and 8 in the other and do a mag change in the middle of the 10 roung stage. If two mags are what you have it's enough. If one goes south on you during the Appleseed you can still get buy with one. Hope to see you at one of them. You'll be easy to find, we only occasionally see an H&K at an Appleseed. Ok great. I'm really looking forward to it. You may end up seeing me after all as I am already dreaming of coming to one of the boot camps in 2010. Meanwhile this year I think it'd be fun to hit an Appleseed with each of my main rifles, the G3, SKS, and AR M4gery. |
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WV has a NEW Appleseed location, here is some info:
–––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––– Range: Hidden Hollow Farm DAR Address: Stinson, WV When: March 21-22 April 18 - 19 May 23 - 25 (special 3 day event) June 20 - 21 July 4 - 5 Aug. 1 - 2 Sep. 19 -20 Oct. 17 - 18 Nov. 14 - 15 Dec. 12 - 13 Camping available: On site - primitive camping next to a pond. Firewood and fire pits available during cooler weather. Potable water available and limited electricity. Directions: From Charleston, WV: Take I-79 North to Exit 40 (Big Otter); turn left at stop (Rt.16N); continue about 3.75 miles and look for green Calhoun County sign on right; turn right at first white church (Unity Gospel Tabernacle); continue on gravel/dirt road about 0.8 mile to farm. From Morgantown, WV: Take I-79 South to Exit 40 (Big Otter); turn right at stop (Rt.16N); continue about 3.75 miles and look for green Calhoun County sign on right; turn right at first white church (Unity Gospel Tabernacle); continue on gravel/dirt road about 0.8 mile to farm. GPS Coordinates: N 3839.174 W 8103.052 For more information contact: The Machine, [email protected] |
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Quoted: Would two 20 round magazines be enough? I know the website recommends bringing up to five. I'd really like to bring my PTR-91 (HK G3 clone) with a .22 converter in it but I may only be able to bring the two mags that come with the converter. The mags themselves are not available on their own. I am hoping that someone will produce them by that time but I am not banking on it. I have an M4 styled AR that has a 22 conversion that will have plenty of mags but I was planning on letting my girlfriend use it if she does not have a 10/22 by then. Two are enough. Five just makes it easier to prep for upcoming segments of the shoot, and gives you backup in case of equipment failure. |
| I recently attended my second Appleseed shoot. I enjoyed myself thoroughly and, although I shot a lower score than the previous time (227 the first shoot, 211 the second time - I blame the sun) I still learned quite a bit. I hope to be able to start lending a hand at these events soon. They are absolutely invaluable. The best possible bang for your buck in marksmanship training. I can't overstate how valuable this training is. |
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Quoted: Took my couse last weekend {22-23 Nov.} and had a good 50 person turnout. Absolutely awesome! Most fun I've had shooting. I don't know any places close {besides personal property} that I could have shot in a group and done it from prone, sitting and standing. Had the AR and just listened as best I could to the commands and waited for instruction. Got to shoot a bit and met some people. Qualified with a score of 220 on Sunday and just had fun and tried different positions and sight adjustments. Bring lots of people if... 1.Female 2.Under 21 3.Active Military ALL FREE! I even saw M1A4ME there and he checked my target for the score when I shot through another string. Thanks and getting Rifleman {Expert} was great, even if it takes more than 2 go's. Looking to make a trip down to NC, maybe in the next couple of months. Is it still free if the <21 YO comes by themselves? I'll still go to one if it's not; I just want to know how much I need to set aside.
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