Posted: 6/26/2009 7:22:09 PM EDT
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I've been thinking about getting back into martial arts after a veerrryy long absence. Before someone suggests it, please don't recommend BJJ type classes. I took one a year or so ago and was laid up for a week. My back just won't take that on a regular basis. Maybe one day it will.) I had practiced Tae Kwon Do and Cha Yon Ryu when I was in my teens and twenties but don't want to go back to them. My 45 year old body just doesn't move like that anymore due to a number of injuries. I was looking into Wing Chun classes here in Houston. It seems to be a very compact and too the point style with little in the way of "gymnastics." Also looks like the techniques and concepts could work in the "real world" with little or no modification. I would like to hear from those of you who practice the art and what you think. (
Oh, I'm on the SW side of Houston and the school I'm looking at is on Royalton. I believe it's name is Shadowhand Wing Chun or something close to that. If you have trained with them, please let me know about your experience. |
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Really depends on the instructor. Wing Chun will concentrate heavily on 2 of the 4 fighting distances, punching/trapping. You will get very conditioned arms and upper body. Plus, again depending on the instructor, you will get into some "soft style" elements (chi sau, iron palm, chin na). There's plenty of "hard style" training obviously with the Mook, but very little ground work. Just like anything else, depends on where your instructors mindset is. Is he a combat oriented guy or a sport guy. If you see tons of trophies for sticky hands or push hands you might reconsider. Wing Chun really does not have forms or "katas" per se but many drills or "sets" designed for use with the Mook. I'm not a Wing Chun guy, but my system has a lot of that Wing Chun influence and I have judged many National Kung Fu tournaments. |
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I've got a purple sash in Wing Chun. It is the style Bruce Lee started in. It was developed by Ng Ma, who was a shaolin nun. It is a very quick striking art. If you've seen the movie Rumble in the Bronx with Jackie Chan, you'll see him practicing on the wooden dummy. I stopped training in it because it is too structured for me meaning you fight centerline, inside, etc. That's why Bruce Lee moved on too. I changed to Kenpo but that's just me. I really liked Wing Chun and got a lot out of it. I've heard of some good schools in Houston from family of mine and the one you mentioned is supposed to be alright. Like the other post, the instructor will make a big difference.
I'm glad you wanted to not do the BJJ thing. Because it's popular in the cage fighting (and effective in the cages) people think it's awsome on the street. The last thing you want to do is go to the ground. Fighting on asphalt, cement, glass, nails, debris, etc. will tear you up. There are no rules on the street and you or the ref. can't tap you out. If you have more than one assailant, you're screwed. Wing Chun (and Kenpo) teaches you to fight more than one person. It will also teach you great coordination and balance. There are lots of good styles out there and I would go to the school and watch some classes before signing up. |
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If you're trying to fight more than one assailant, you're screwed no matter how you look at it. However, I never understood this argument against grappling arts:
I'm glad you wanted to not do the BJJ thing. Because it's popular in the cage fighting (and effective in the cages) people think it's awsome on the street. The last thing you want to do is go to the ground. Fighting on asphalt, cement, glass, nails, debris, etc. will tear you up. There are no rules on the street and you or the ref. can't tap you out. I think it would be stupid to "butt-flop" in the average unsanctioned fight, but I think it's equally stupid to be willfully ignorant in this area. Even with a very basic knowledge in grappling, you wouldn't have to worry about "tapping out" to someone who has no clue what to do once he's horizontal. In fact, due to the general lack of groundfighting in the majority of the population, I'd maybe even venture to say you would "tap out" most people. Of course, in a real, life-or-death fight, you wouldn't bother staying in tapping range, you'd just crank to go for breaks or dislocations, or maybe a choke. In view of that, why would you prevent yourself from having such a huge advantage over the average person? No, I don't think that everyone needs a blue belt in BJJ. I do, however, feel that if you want to be able to defend yourself, you should have at least a rudimentary knowledge in each phase a fight would go through (striking, grappling, etc). |
| I agree with you about getting at least a basic grappling knowledge or better than that, in case you do get taken to the ground. That is another reason I left Wing Chun. Learn how to get out of those to get back up if there is more than one person or they have grappling skills too. Suppose you get a guy in an armbar or some other grapple or lock. That's great. Problem solved. But if assailant number two comes up as you have the other dude locked up and stomps you in the face or head, then what? You're already on the ground locking up the other guy in place as an easy target. Do you let go of the one guy to defend yourself against the other? If you are up on your feet you can move and have a better chance to block or dodge or get out of the situation all together if possible. There are also multiple styles that successfully teach and have proven that they are capable of fighting multiple attackers at once: Krav Maga, Kenpo, Wing Chun, Kali, Kajukenbo, etc. This is all a self defense thing. In the UFC stuff though, grappling seems to be the way to go. |
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Wing Chun in my opion is one of the BEST complimentary arts you will ever find. I consider a Strong Western Style boxing background with a lot of Wing Chun training to be quite possibly the most effective street fighting systems you will ever find. UNFORTUNATELY both of them are very practice intensive. If you spend a normal amount of time studying Wing Chun and then try to put it into use in the real world you are going to get DESTROYED! About the only way to be truely effective, with Wing Chun is to practice A LOT!! Wing CHun is all about muscle memory. Mix that in with some traditional boxing and you are damn near unstobbable in H2H Throw in some Krav Maga disarming techniques and some Fillipino Joint manipulations and you should be set. If you cant tell I am a big PROPONET OF BOXING! ESPECIALLY FOr teenage boys. It is about the only "Martial Art" that will prepare a young man for actually being hit. Have you ever heard the saying "As soon as you get hit your game plan goes out the window" But more then anything seek out a GOOD INSTRUCTOR avoid Family Friendly schools and schools that dont allow Tough Sparring. Light Sparring just doesnt cut it. If you are serious about Martial Arts then you MUST be prepared to get bruised some.
I had back surgery about 2 years ago and my back is still very weak, I like you can no longer even dream about taking a fight to the ground. So When my back got real bad I started Boxing again, and working on some trapping drills, that is the beuaty of Wing Chun is it gives you set drills that actually work as long as you put in the HOUR A DAY MINIMUM practice time on each drill then the "traps" and such become Muscle Memory which is the real "secret recipe" of successful Martial Arts. |
| If anything, Wing Chun develops 'structure' of mass. Meaning, it teaches you how to move your body in a way that maximizes your weight against your opponent. It's impressive to see it in action, and the serious pracitioners usually practice bone conditioning with Chinese medicine. It's good stuff but takes along time to learn. |
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Quoted:
If you're trying to fight more than one assailant, you're screwed no matter how you look at it. However, I never understood this argument against grappling arts: I'm glad you wanted to not do the BJJ thing. Because it's popular in the cage fighting (and effective in the cages) people think it's awsome on the street. The last thing you want to do is go to the ground. Fighting on asphalt, cement, glass, nails, debris, etc. will tear you up. There are no rules on the street and you or the ref. can't tap you out. I think it would be stupid to "butt-flop" in the average unsanctioned fight, but I think it's equally stupid to be willfully ignorant in this area. Even with a very basic knowledge in grappling, you wouldn't have to worry about "tapping out" to someone who has no clue what to do once he's horizontal. In fact, due to the general lack of groundfighting in the majority of the population, I'd maybe even venture to say you would "tap out" most people. Of course, in a real, life-or-death fight, you wouldn't bother staying in tapping range, you'd just crank to go for breaks or dislocations, or maybe a choke. In view of that, why would you prevent yourself from having such a huge advantage over the average person? No, I don't think that everyone needs a blue belt in BJJ. I do, however, feel that if you want to be able to defend yourself, you should have at least a rudimentary knowledge in each phase a fight would go through (striking, grappling, etc). Agreed. Who says you always go to the ground by choice? If someone tackles you, you better know what to do. |
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I like what Wing Chung Gung Fu teaches, It is first, a woman's style. This means it is about turning a larger, more aggressive opponent's energy away from yourself or using it to overcome them. As I am a large man, I found it very interesting and for me to close with someone in the way they taught was very unnerving to an opponent. I also learned to turn force and even use it to my advantage. Learning to create power in small distances was very enlightening. Plus, I learned for the first time to be flexible in my movement and much more fluid. I then went on the JKD... btw...there IS footwork involved.....and kicking. I don't know where some of you trained but there is an aspect of Wing Chung called "Pok Sou" and "Bong Sou"..."hands trap hands"..."feet trap feet" essentially. I don't use my hands to block your kick. This is inefficient and unwise due to the power and strength of your legs. Use your feet, legs.
Imagine a low kick to the groin from your opponent at close range- not a lot of time to block, not easy. best defense is to turn slightly to left or right and take it obliquely on the thigh or twist foot and hip sideways to take kick on sole of foot. Basically...ANGLES. |
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Because I study (and teach) JKD, I know some Wing Chun. As others have said, it was Bruce Lee's first art and the basis for the trapping that is done in JKD.
That said, I feel that for self defense, people DO need to be well rounded. Yes, grappling is important. I agree that in a street scenario, you shouldn't TRY to go to the ground for reasons already mentioned (multiple attackers, concrete sucks, etc). BUT, if you get taken down, being able to escape and do damage while there is important, in my opinion. But, to the OP, I think you can/will get a lot of good knowledge out of Wing Chun. Just remember to attack their centerline and protect yours. |
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Because I study (and teach) JKD, I know some Wing Chun. As others have said, it was Bruce Lee's first art and the basis for the trapping that is done in JKD. That said, I feel that for self defense, people DO need to be well rounded. Yes, grappling is important. I agree that in a street scenario, you shouldn't TRY to go to the ground for reasons already mentioned (multiple attackers, concrete sucks, etc). BUT, if you get taken down, being able to escape and do damage while there is important, in my opinion. But, to the OP, I think you can/will get a lot of good knowledge out of Wing Chun. Just remember to attack their centerline and protect yours. I agree, which is why I'm taking BJJ at 48 (and have a blue belt). If I was a kid still I'd probably be cross training in other things, as it is 3 BJJ clases / wk is about all I can handle. I do have to say, I can only think of three reasons to fight on the ground: 1) A "drunk brother in law" type situation, i.e., you have to handle an individual you don't want to punch out. 2) You find yourself in a fight with someone you can't get away from or beat using stand up. 3) You find yourself on the ground through no intent of your own. Further, I'll note that good take down defense usually belongs to grapplers, so if you want to keep it stand up grappling skills are much to your advantage. However, arts that focus more on take downs and take down defense are more useful here (judo, wrestling). |
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Because I study (and teach) JKD, I know some Wing Chun. As others have said, it was Bruce Lee's first art and the basis for the trapping that is done in JKD. That said, I feel that for self defense, people DO need to be well rounded. Yes, grappling is important. I agree that in a street scenario, you shouldn't TRY to go to the ground for reasons already mentioned (multiple attackers, concrete sucks, etc). BUT, if you get taken down, being able to escape and do damage while there is important, in my opinion. But, to the OP, I think you can/will get a lot of good knowledge out of Wing Chun. Just remember to attack their centerline and protect yours. I agree, which is why I'm taking BJJ at 48 (and have a blue belt). If I was a kid still I'd probably be cross training in other things, as it is 3 BJJ clases / wk is about all I can handle. I do have to say, I can only think of three reasons to fight on the ground: 1) A "drunk brother in law" type situation, i.e., you have to handle an individual you don't want to punch out. 2) You find yourself in a fight with someone you can't get away from or beat using stand up. 3) You find yourself on the ground through no intent of your own. Further, I'll note that good take down defense usually belongs to grapplers, so if you want to keep it stand up grappling skills are much to your advantage. However, arts that focus more on take downs and take down defense are more useful here (judo, wrestling). Agreed. I am a BJJ student myself (Gracie Barra). I personally really like the "ground game" and feel pretty confident on the ground. |
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Agreed. I am a BJJ student myself (Gracie Barra). I personally really like the "ground game" and feel pretty confident on the ground. Often people point out why going to the ground is not the best thing to do in a fight. They usually have a good point, but seriously, without a ground game you are not a well rounded fighter. Further, someone with a good ground game will have the best time getting back to his feet, and someone with good takedown defense can best keep the fight in stand up. The other thing is the focus on street fights with criminal attackers (no restraints). While I agree such things should be trained for, a lot of situations are arguments with irate neighbors, drunk people at parties, angry in laws and mad parents at their kid's game. In these sort of situations it is good to have something you can use without having to falllback on an eye gouge. |
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I've taken a little WC over the years, but recently thought about taking some Kodenkan JJ (more SD than BJJ/GJJ). I mentioned this to my WC instructor friend and he was all, "JJ is great if you're only fighting one person."
His idea of what to do when getting taken down on the street is breaking their neck or gouging out their eyes as they shoot on you. I'm probably going to take both––WC with him (again) and KJJ (which I'd never heard of) with Scott Gray here in Jax,FL. |
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I've taken a little WC over the years, but recently thought about taking some Kodenkan JJ (more SD than BJJ/GJJ). I mentioned this to my WC instructor friend and he was all, "JJ is great if you're only fighting one person." His idea of what to do when getting taken down on the street is breaking their neck or gouging out their eyes as they shoot on you. Breaking the neck is rather unrealistic. The eye gouge thing might work. Or not. Gerard Gordeau, the Savate fighter in UFC 1 used an eye gouge in a Vale Tudo fight in Japan. He blinded his opponent in one eye, but still lost by submission. Royce Gracie beat him in UFC 1 (of course). Gordeau was ruthless and a dirty fighter. He also had a very solid kickboxing skillset, and his dirty tricks didn't always work. |
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Well, I think his point was, there are rules in the octagon that favor the grapplers. I suppose the rule about no striking to the back of the head didn't exist, but reaching down to the guy shooting on you and ramming your fingers into his eyes probably was illegal back then.
Dang. I'll have to try to find that fight. There's a great article about an "American" style of fighting in the late-1700s and 1800s that seemed to focus on ripping out your opponents eyes. |
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Well, I think his point was, there are rules in the octagon that favor the grapplers. I suppose the rule about no striking to the back of the head didn't exist, but reaching down to the guy shooting on you and ramming your fingers into his eyes probably was illegal back then. Dang. I'll have to try to find that fight. There's a great article about an "American" style of fighting in the late-1700s and 1800s that seemed to focus on ripping out your opponents eyes. I just order UFC 1 through 4 on DVD. I've also been reading about UFC 1 here: http://www.realfightermag.com/article.php?ArticleID=5096 The UFC 1 rules were: 1) no eye gouges, 2) no biting, and 3) no groin strikes, and I believe that was it. Note that some rules in MMA favor strikers, such as having rounds. A grappler would rather have no rounds, because if he has the guy in mount when the round ends they come back in the next round and they are starting again in standing. It cuts both ways. A BJJ guy would prefer if everyone wore a GI. Note that EVERYONE trains with rules. No one uses eye gouges in full force sparring. When I took karate, I was taught how to eye gouge, but we were not allowed to use it in sparring even without contact. My view of eye gouges is that it is a desperate technique that MIGHT be effective. If you are striking with, say, a boxer or kickboxer, attempting an eyegouge is risky and can easily jam the fingers. When I was taught how to eye gouge, the fingers were not tight or fully extended to protect them, but even so jaming the fingers on a block or forehead is a high possiblity. When grappling, the takedown will be quick and once on the ground the inferior grappler will quickly be in a poor position to do anything. An eye gouge might win the fight or just really piss the other guy off right before he gains complete dominance. The Savate fighter bit Gracie when Gracie had him in mount, and it didn't work out well for him. The other thing about eye gouges is that they are not a good idea for anything except the most desperate of situation. They make sense for a woman who has an intruder in her bedroom or who is being dragged into a dark alley, or possibly for anyone facing feral street thugs, but for any fight where you have the slighest option out, they are hard to justify. |
