Posted: 5/12/2009 8:42:18 AM EDT
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If you are shooting a DA/SA pistol such as a Beretta 92F, is there a rule against manually cocking the hammer after you draw?
If not, is there really much competitive disadvantage to doing so versus releasing the safety on a 1911? |
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If i understand the question....I believe you are talking about starting with a round in the chamber, hammer down then thumbing back the hammer as you draw. If so, you will find it incredibly slow, by USPSA terms, over flipping down a 1911 safety.
First and foremost, it would really mess a lot more with your grip. I would suggest borrowing a timer and trying both methods for yourself. Put the buzzer on delay and do a few draws with a single shot comparing this and a standard DA start. I bet it will become apparent pretty quickly the DA start is a lot quicker but transitioning well between DA and SA is the trick. An accurate and fast DA first shot at any thing but point blank is a hard task to master. Personally, I think the 1911 cocked and lock is the way to go. There is a reason the vast majority of USPSA competitors stick with this platform. darn near everything has been experimented with regarding guns and gear in USPSA over the years, the 1911 in one form or another stays on top in this game. ETA: Rule 8.1.2.2 requires the arm to be fully decocked at the start signal. As far as I see or know, there is no rule against thumb cocking once the buzzer sounds. |
| If you are shooting Production division (the only one that really makes sense with your 92F), then you will not be competing against a 1911 anyway. Also, in Production you can shoot 9mm without the Major/Minor disparity. The only down side is the 10-round mag load limit, so you will be reloading a lot more (again, the same for everyone in Production). There is nothing in the rules prohibiting the manual cocking you describe, but I can tell you it will be slower than just firing the first shot double-action, and if your thumb slips off the hammer and the gun fires the RO will DQ you for unsafe gun handling. |
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Thanks yes, that is exactly what I was asking.
That sums it up nicely for me. As you say, many people choose the 1911 for this game and was wondering if there anything besides a competitive disadvantage to manually cocking a DA / SA. Yes, the transition from DA to SA after the first shot is a real killer for me. |
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JHMC79 - Here's a tip when shooting heavy first shot DA/SA pistols. USUALLY, not always, but usually, you'll have a full paper target that is able to be engaged. Translation, very rarely do you HAVE to shoot a partial paper or steel target. So...fire the first shot, on the easiest shot at the beginning of the stage to get you to SA.
Rich |
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JHMC79 - Here's a tip when shooting heavy first shot DA/SA pistols. USUALLY, not always, but usually, you'll have a full paper target that is able to be engaged. Translation, very rarely do you HAVE to shoot a partial paper or steel target. So...fire the first shot, on the easiest shot at the beginning of the stage to get you to SA. Rich +1 to this. Even with a single action pistol this might be a good idea as it can allow for the fastest draw and first shot possible. Again this is not always the case but makes sense a lot of times. |
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NEVER cock the hammer. It's a huge waste of time and is NEVER worth it. Rich Uhh no. What if you have to take five steps before you can fire your weapon? I could cock the hammer 4 times and not lose any time. You would also have a better first shot and a smother trigger pull. Depending on where the target is at you could draw your gun and fire at the target without cocking the hammer and miss your first shot and have to shoot a make up shot. When you do your dry fire drills try putting in cocking the hammer into your drills. |
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I can only speak for international IPSC, but in IPSC Production, the first shot must be fired double action. So you can't manually pull back the hammer, start Condition 3 and Israeli draw etc. etc.
I'd assume, without checking the USPSA rulebook, that it would be the same. |
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I can only speak for international IPSC, but in IPSC Production, the first shot must be fired double action. So you can't manually pull back the hammer, start Condition 3 and Israeli draw etc. etc. I'd assume, without checking the USPSA rulebook, that it would be the same. Actually, it's not. The IPSC rulebook specifies that the first shot must be from double action on DA/SA pistols (assuming the pistol starts loaded, of course), whereas the USPSA rulebook only states that DA/SA pistols must be fully decocked at the start signal. I'm not aware of any NROI ruling on the subject, but then again I've never bothered to look, because the idea itself seems so incredibly  to me.
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I can only speak for international IPSC, but in IPSC Production, the first shot must be fired double action. So you can't manually pull back the hammer, start Condition 3 and Israeli draw etc. etc. I'd assume, without checking the USPSA rulebook, that it would be the same. Actually, it's not. The IPSC rulebook specifies that the first shot must be from double action on DA/SA pistols (assuming the pistol starts loaded, of course), whereas the USPSA rulebook only states that DA/SA pistols must be fully decocked at the start signal. I'm not aware of any NROI ruling on the subject, but then again I've never bothered to look, because the idea itself seems so incredibly to me.How does this rule apply to the CZ SP-01? When chambering a round, the hammer is cocked. The standard SP-01 has no decocker, just a safety. Do you have to lower the hammer manually? Start cocked and locked? Start cocked and unlocked? I've never shot in a sanctioned match, so I don't know what the rule is. |
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You lower the hammer manually on the SPO1 if you are shooting in production. If you want to shoot limited you could start cocked and locked Interesting. I'm kinda surprised given the emphasis on safety the sport has (as well as most ranges). That said, I lower it manually all the time using a "pinch" grip. |
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Interesting. I'm kinda surprised given the emphasis on safety the sport has (as well as most ranges). I had the reaction initially but then I realized the rules work just fine. If you pop a round off while you are lowering the hammer you are DQed on the spot. |
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Interesting. I'm kinda surprised given the emphasis on safety the sport has (as well as most ranges). I had the reaction initially but then I realized the rules work just fine. If you pop a round off while you are lowering the hammer you are DQed on the spot. Plus, if you read your CZ manual, they go over manual decocking as an acceptable means of placing a safety-equipped 75 variant into a "safe condition". They don't recommend against it in the least, either - they just reiterate that you should be practicing manual decocking with an unloaded pistol first before trying it live. |
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You lower the hammer manually on the SPO1 if you are shooting in production. If you want to shoot limited you could start cocked and locked Interesting. I'm kinda surprised given the emphasis on safety the sport has (as well as most ranges). That said, I lower it manually all the time using a "pinch" grip. There's nothing unsafe about manually decocking a DA/SA auto. Worse that can happen is a round goes into the berm (you were pointing it in a safe direction, no?) |
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You lower the hammer manually on the SPO1 if you are shooting in production. If you want to shoot limited you could start cocked and locked Interesting. I'm kinda surprised given the emphasis on safety the sport has (as well as most ranges). That said, I lower it manually all the time using a "pinch" grip. There's nothing unsafe about manually decocking a DA/SA auto. Worse that can happen is a round goes into the berm (you were pointing it in a safe direction, no?) If you are following safety rules you are correct but it would still earn you a DQ in a USPSA match and I would be willing to bet IPSC is the same |
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You lower the hammer manually on the SPO1 if you are shooting in production. If you want to shoot limited you could start cocked and locked Interesting. I'm kinda surprised given the emphasis on safety the sport has (as well as most ranges). That said, I lower it manually all the time using a "pinch" grip. There's nothing unsafe about manually decocking a DA/SA auto. Worse that can happen is a round goes into the berm (you were pointing it in a safe direction, no?) If you are following safety rules you are correct but it would still earn you a DQ in a USPSA match and I would be willing to bet IPSC is the same Yup. |
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According to the book you will incure a procedural penalty if you cock the hammer prior to making the first shot in production division. It's in Appendix D4. I've been away form the sport for a while and my book is the 2004 edition so I don't know if there has been a rule change. Maybe someone with a more current book could verify. Now if you are shooting Limitied Division you could just start with it cocked and locked but you are at a disadvantage shooting 9mm minor.
ETA - Nevermind that is for Production not US Production. Appendix D9 (which applies to US Production) says gun must not be in single action mode at start signal. That is all. |