Posted: 3/8/2009 4:43:42 PM EDT
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I am going to SWAT school in two weeks and would like active SWAT members to give me a rundown of there gear. I want to make sure I have more than I need not less. I would also appreciate any gear set up suggestions and pictures of your individual set ups. right now my intention is to carry four 30rd mags on my armor/chest rig and three pistol mags on my left leg or left side duty belt. I have to get my own pads, so any suggestions of pads to look for or avoid would be apreciated.
Thanks in advance. In response to: "I'd run with what your SWAT team issues you." I would certainly use all my issued equipment if I had ANY. I am going to basic SWAT school and eventually the advanced school. My department does not have a SWAT team. We have several specialized units, including an entry team, but no SWAT team. I would love to have a well thought out and free set of equipment, but that is not in the cards. Due to state budget cuts (I work at a state agency), They won't even buy me a lower front sight for my duty weapon that shoots two and a half inches low at twenty five yards. Therefore, I have to buy my own equipment (although I have had some eqiupment donated by fellow officers) and decide on my own placement. I realize that I will learn a lot at school, and will eventually decide what works for me. What I am looking for is a good starting point. |
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I ammended the original post to reflect the lack of existence oa issued equipment.
As far as pretty stuff goes, I have been ordered by my commander to get new equipment from property because my stuff looks so bad. All I care about is that it works and works well. That is why I have requested that active SWAT members respond. I don't care if something is expensive or if the best equipment for a certain situation is duct tape. What works works, what doesn't work can get you killed. |
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I have a list of basic equipment I will need. Rifle, Pistol, ammo, full tactical gear, gas mask, etc.
Thank you for pointing out that I may need rappelling, there is no mention of that equipment or trainig, but I did not think to speciffically ask. Little things like that will save me the embarrasment of being unprepared. I would not be going to this class if I did not any understanding about what I was getting into. I do, however, believe that more experienced officers have a better understanding about what (specifically) equipment works and does not work. For instance, I have to buy my own knee/elbow pads. Perhaps the padded version is enough and the palstic shell type have detrimental secondary considerations like being loud when crawling. I have not use any of this gear in training or actual call outs, and there is a great deal of onformation that may save me the time, irritation and expense of finding out for my self. The responses I have been getting are all valid, but clearly I am not asking you to tell me the obvious (no insult intended). It is easy to tell me to ask someone else or to go with what I have. The reason I chose to request this information in a forum, is because it would allow for input from multiple individuals and for contradiction and debate. I don't want to hear that I should get a certain piece of equipment from every member of a specific unit that is issued that equipment and never tried anything else (unless it is a thoughtful recomendation, with the plusses and minusses cited).In this format, if someone says the best helmet they have used is @#@$, and everyone unanimously agrees, then it is problably an excellent helmet. |
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If it's a basic SWAT school, I highly doubt you'll be doing any serious rappelling... that's usually a school all by itself (particularly if you're going to be doing rappel-based entries, rappelling with weapons, or any of that Australian sh*t).
There is a LOT of stuff to know on SWAT, and usually a basic SWAT school is tactical movement, room clearing, different tactics to perform same: cross-over, button-hook, hall-boss, double-flow, HRT versus other types of entries (eg. "running the walls" versus pie-slicing). You'll also learn dynamic versus stealth entries, you may learn basic nomenclature (how to number sides of a structure, windows, hand signals), and so forth. SWAT is a pretty big umbrella, and there are lots of disciplines underneath it. I've been doing it in one form or another for >10 years, and I learn something new (or a new adaption to current threats) at every school/convention I attend. It's a process... don't get caught up on the "merit badge" philosophy of "I went to SWAT school." That's just the start. |
| As far as pads go, i have the Blackhawk ones and they are ok. However I have noticed that my 5.11 pants with the built in pads are usually good enough. Volleyball knee pads actually work fairly well too and they do not bunch up behind your knee when you squad. Above anything get a damn good pair of boots. If you school was like mine plan on running a lot, with a lot of gear. Set up your chest rig to mimic your duty rig if you can. all my gear fits on my vest, but it is set up like it is on my belt. When you go to reach for shit, if it is in a differnt spot your gonna look stupid. And above else, your going to mess up......a lot. But thats how you learn. Be a man admit that your wrong and move on. Nothing I hate more than someone new who argues. |
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Try to keep your pistol mags in same location that they have been forever, i.e. on belt...you will prob. see several guys trying to find their armor mounted ones during reloads.
Avoid anything other than pants and knee pads on your legs if you can...if my duty holster would clear my armor I would NOT have a thigh rig. During a stealth/covert/static entry or tubular assault you will see why. Try on knee pads, the 1st 2 sets I was issued sucked. I had to tie the straps on the 1st set to get them to not slide down my shin and become ankle pads. I have never worn my elbow pads. Dump pouch! Electronic hearing protection, if you can. Spare gloves. If you get to do any 2 man ports on real windows you may ruin a set real fast. Mechanix fast fits are a good choice if you are paying yourself. Ibuprofen, pocket size notebook, long sleeves, spare boots, clear glasses (goggles suck for all day)... Don't overload with gear because the fresher you stay the easier to concentrate on the tactics, etc that you will be learning. Likely, if you are on here you are not going to learn staggering new shooting skills but many people's heads will explode in a team environment. The shooting is pretty simple. |
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THANK YOU ALL.
I will go try several sets of pads tomorrow. Cheaper to get one set of pads instead of several pair of pants...but I will get some of the padded pants in the future. If I keep my mags on my belt I have a little trouble accessing them with the thicker vest. I can do it and I think that if I practice enough it won't be a problem. Getting to my gun with the rotating hood holster is even tougher. I may have to go to a thigh holster. What is a dump pouch and where is the best location? Love my Blackhawk boots and have two sets, and am already on a steady diet of ibuprofen....running 10K a day. The automotive mirror, will it break in my pocket? Electronic hearing protection, if anyone has a model they like or a model to avoid please let me know. From talking with my guys (and a girl), it seams like three mags for the rifle on the right side of the vest is a common set up. Where do you guys like you gas mask? I am leaning toward the back of my vest. Where do you like your radio? The guy I respect most in our department has it on his back and says he does not like it because he can't adjust volume, change channel or turn it off easily. Any suggestions on helmets? I have been offered several helmets by my friends, unfortunately they all dwarf my pin head and slide all over. So much for my tax return. |
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I will go try several sets of pads tomorrow. Cheaper to get one set of pads instead of several pair of pants...but I will get some of the padded pants in the future.
––-My department issues 5.11 TDU's and I think the first thing everyone does is take out the knee and elbow pads and throw them away, but they may work for you If I keep my mags on my belt I have a little trouble accessing them with the thicker vest. I can do it and I think that if I practice enough it won't be a problem. ––-With an Eagle or Blackhawk triple on a regualr duty belt, I have no problem accessing them. We use Paraclete armor and you have to move the pouch towards your hip a little so the dick flap doesn't get in the way but it is otherwise fine. With it there if you just sweep from your belt buckle out and you will find the pouch, just like on your regular duty belt or concealment gear. Getting to my gun with the rotating hood holster is even tougher. I may have to go to a thigh holster. ––-I use an ALS/SLS of some sort. I tried the same model 1.5 inch drop belt holster and it would clear the armor but it was too flexy when drawing and hard to sit down. The standard drop same model is my duty holster and it will NOT clear my heavy armor. What is a dump pouch and where is the best location? ––-Just a big open top pouch on your belt that you can use for whatever. Mine is Maxpedition Rolly Polly and I carry it on my belt near left kidney. Good for flex cuffs, evidence or extra equipment during ops or holding ammo, water bottle, dip, towel or whatever while training. Keeps you from being the guy that has to stop everything to run back to the staging area, etc. Some guys wear theirs behind holster, some center of back...just where you can get to it... Love my Blackhawk boots and have two sets, and am already on a steady diet of ibuprofen....running 10K a day. ––-You are good there...you will probably be watching most of the students wilt while you are still grinning. The automotive mirror, will it break in my pocket? ––-Put it in a utility pouch on your chest rig/armor, wrapped in bandanna or something. Electronic hearing protection, if anyone has a model they like or a model to avoid please let me know. ––-Issued Peltor Com-Tacs...great on range, suck on operations. Always shutting down due to noise or radio traffic and I can never hear anything. From talking with my guys (and a girl), it seams like three mags for the rifle on the right side of the vest is a common set up. ––-Same for my team except on the left side. Some of us carry more, some only 1 on armor and 2 on gun. I carry 6 rifle on armor and 2 pistol on belt. I would stay as little as possible at first until you see what you like. Doing stealth/covert entries you will want the minimum cause you will have a hard time moving or holding an awkward position for a long time period. Where do you guys like you gas mask? I am leaning toward the back of my vest. ––-In my trunk...I have it on my left hip...and yes it sucks...never tried back. The leg is unconfortable and catches on everything...I would imagine the back would be hard to sit down. Where do you like your radio? The guy I respect most in our department has it on his back and says he does not like it because he can't adjust volume, change channel or turn it off easily. ––-Mine is on back...he is right, it sucks...can't lean back, can't adjust, keys up if you lean wrong...option is under arm but then in way of belt... Any suggestions on helmets? I have been offered several helmets by my friends, unfortunately they all dwarf my pin head and slide all over. ––-Nope, sorry. FWIW, I was in ur boat when I went to school too and I took a nylon duty belt w/3 pistol mag pouch, Saf. 6004, a single belt rifle mag pouch (Blade Tech I think), a pair of knee pads from Lowe's, Mechanix Gloves, an early 90's set of plates and carrier (slick) I borrowed, an old K-Pot I borrowed, Wiley X's with inter. lenses, Peltor Tac 6's, and notepad. That is what I would do again...definitely don't blow a lot of money on nylon, etc |
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Thank you for taking the time to address all of the issues. I have been lucky that every day more people find out I’m going to school, they offer me the use of equipment. I even got a helmet that fits today (pending approval from her sergeant). I think the only things I will need are a better set of belt mag pouches (looked at the Blackhawk triple today, going back to the store tomorrow to try them on the belt with the vest, but they look great), a mirror, a dump pouch, knee/elbow pads (the ones I’ve been offered kill me when I run) and a gas mask holder for my previously issued mask. I was also told by my people to take duct tape. I gues there are some equipment issues I may be able to MacGyver my way out of.
Ran in most of my gear today, it SUCKED! I’ve been running 42 to 44 minute 10k’s in shorts and running shoes. Ran 3 miles in gear at just over 23 min. but stopped because of knee pain. Foot pursuits are my specialty and running in regular duty gear isn’t that bad, but the heavier vest and the helmet (that’s the worst…I almost stopped because of how annoying that thing is) just sucks and that was without the full mags, carrying a rifle, gas mask and knee pads (took them off after half mile because of irritation). One more week to make it all work. |
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Don't take anything you were not issued by your department.
We suggest students come to us with what they are issued so they can learn to work in waht their department expects them to use. Also it is a great place to find out what is wrong with the gear your department got you from the lowest bidder and make some decisions about what you would rather have by evaluating the gear other students are using and comparing it to your issued stuff. Pathfinder 6 Semper Primus! |
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it has been said, but worth repeating _LONG SLEEVES!! even if just LS T-shirts, Also wear 5.11 or Under Armour wicking gear; the more comfortable you stay the better off you will be in conncentrating.
Maxpedition makes great dump pouches and can be rolled up to save space (Rolly Polly). Be sure to mark your mags; you will likely want yours back after drills and if everyone is carrying the same type..... I have found the Milspec Monkey/Maxpedition Adminstartive pouch worn smack dab below my neck on my carrier is a great place for incidentals, pad, pens, flashlights, lip balm, contact solution,etc I use Peltor COMTACS and SWAT TACS,but they can screw up a good cheek weld , so be prepared to readjust them. if you are going to be shooting rifles/ subs a lot, invest in a mag loader. I prefer LULA. Depending on your scenarios and training site, a small hydration system might be important. If you don't stay hydrated, you will suffer physically and your brain will not function as well (up to 10% reduction in mental capacity when first signs of dehydration begin, and it worsens). Elastic cloth bandages, great for you but even better for your classmates when you are the one that is prepared and stops their bleed or shields the blister . OPEN MIND. Learn and be ready to rethink the wheel. Buy and bring GOOD socks, and I mean $10 (or more) a pair socks, and change them at least twice each day-if in a hot environment or your feet sweat a lot). If your school is multi=day,blisters will screw with your mental and physical performance. Nothing makes you feel more refreshed than a sock change. Take baby wipes for the breaks. use to remove crusted salt. Without having your syllabus, it is difficult to be more specific. Good luck and be safe! |
You are getting some great advise. You may not want to spend a lot of money up front because what you see experienced operators do will make more sense once you get into the class. Having said that, in my experience try to stay as light as possible. Also try to keep stuff off your legs as much as possible. I still use a drop leg for my pistol but I'm looking for a way to change that. I mount my radio on my right side under my arm. The cord runs up the back and I secure the mike(transmit button) high on my shoulder. I have Peltor com gear so the mike is a boom attached to the Ear muffs. We all mount the gas mask pouch on the left rear per SOP. Yes it is uncomfortable and awkward to sit or drive with but it's there when I need it. Our M4 mags go on the left side if your a righty. Then Flash bangs. I try to keep my middle free so I can go prone if needed. Also we have a med pouch mounted on the lower front right side. I am a medic so mine is a little more extensive but still amounts to no more than a self/buddy aid kit. Tourniquets go on our left shoulder per SOP.After a few missions you will get a feel for things that are crucial and whats not. Get rid of whats not cause it only slows you down. Weight as you will come to find(especially as you get older) is crucial. You may need mirrors and repel gear for a hostage rescue, but not for high risk warrants and drug houses. For those you need to be able to move fast and clean. No fun getting hung up in doorways cause your gear is too bulky. Also +1 on the shooting glasses vs. goggles, and remember to anti-fog them just like you would goggles. Helmets are way too expensive for you to purchase. Let somebody loan you one if you just gotta have one. Good luck 
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Any suggestions on shirts. The only long sleeves I have are dress shirts or my bike uniform long polo's (white and they wont be happy if I ruin them). I have plenty of undergear from my bike racing days.
I have been lent two different vest setups. Thank God...I looked into them, $$$$. All I need is a dump pouch (just looked at roly poly) I am required to bring a helmet, But I finally burrowed one that fits. Hydration system is mandatory gear. looking at the blackhawk side hydration, only 40oz. so smallest I've found. It seems like an additional backpack system like camelback would just add more straps and complication. Elastic cloth bandages (bandaid style or ace bandage style) - also, any suggestions on little things like bandaids - I hadn't even considered bandaids and baby wipes until now. GREAT IDEA! Socks. I have tons of blackhawk socks. They work great for me. I used to use all my old hiking gear, smartwool socks, but they are all gone now. I've been trying to get ahold of the lead instructor for a syllabus, but no luck yet. Do you find that Com Tacac/Swat Tac give enough noise reduction?Trying to find some on Ebay, $$$. - will they work with 800 mhz motorala 5000? yep, with adapter Aways have an open mind, and that didn't even cost me anything. Thats why I'm taking this class, I love to learn. |
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I like the ComTacs for use on the range and have had no problem with the noise reduction. If you do have a problem, try putting in ear plugs and then turn the volume on the ComTacs all the way up. That is how I use my Tac 6S's and it works well. You don't hear your heartbeat and clothing scraping, which is always aggravating as hell to me, you get a lot more reduction and you can still hear conversation with no problems. My ComTacs have the boom mike and I hate them for operational use.
For shirts, just use bdu tops. Rolly polly is good because, as you will quickly find out, an open empty dump pouch will immediately be filled with your team members garbage... |