Posted: 2/4/2014 7:36:51 AM EDT
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A not-so-technical-savvy buddy of mine asked me to help him figure out whether or not there was a way to modify his Sub2000 so as not to have to register . After a very brief search I stumbled upon an interesting NYF thread.
Interesting thread on NYF regarding Sub2000 compliance ETA: I realize that many of you won't read through it, so I'll quote some posts that I found interesting... I may have combined posts and put some in my own words for easier reading. The Sub2000 is not listed on any of the NYSP lists. I know those are irrelevant, because you can make any of those models on that list compliant, but if they were listed it would show greater intent to prosecute. Yes the Sub2000 has a pistol grip, though it is also a magazine well. However, if you do classify it as a magazine well, law does not prohibit a magazine well that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the rifle. If you so happen to also grip the magazine well, well that's just a damn coincidence! On an AR, or AK the pistol grip serves no other function than as a pistol grip. However, on a Sub2000 it also serves as the magazine well, making it a necessary part of the gun. The grip IMO is just a secondary function of it. Pistol grips that are simultaneously magazine wells aren't illegal on pistols. Hmmmmm, this does force the state to explain why that kind of "pistol grip" is okay on a pistol but not on a rifle. I got 99 problems and a grip ain't one. It's just COMMON SENSE.....if it's questionable, STAY FAR AWAY FROM IT. Why chance it? If a G17 is legal, why wouldn't a Sub2k be? Just because it's a rifle with a stock and not a pistol?  FUAC!
And maybe a way to comply without registration Please forgive me if this has been discussed here, but a quick arfcom search yielded little info. If anyone can lend any insight, it'd be greatly appreciated. I'm leaning toward recommending he sell it, move out of state, or heaven forbid, register.... |
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So how about if they made it with NO grip, just a mag well. And a specific magazine that has the outside shaped like a grip.
So when inserted, you hold onto the MAGAZINE, which just happens to look a little bit like a pistol grip, but is NOT attached to the gun in any way. there is no legislation I am aware of that dictates what a magazine should look like... |
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Quoted:
So how about if they made it with NO grip, just a mag well. And a specific magazine that has the outside shaped like a grip. So when inserted, you hold onto the MAGAZINE, which just happens to look a little bit like a pistol grip, but is NOT attached to the gun in any way. there is no legislation I am aware of that dictates what a magazine should look like... Hah, that's pretty interesting. Good work around. |
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You should ask the NYSP for a letter, I'm sure they will get one in the mail right away. Quoted:
You should ask the NYSP for a letter, I'm sure they will get one in the mail right away. Hiram, I truly respect you as a long-time-contributing member, but your sarcasm is unwarranted. I too am sick and tired of all of this BS that has infected the HTF here, and elsewhere. I'm simply looking to elaborate on the topic... I'll quote another respectable post on the NYF thread that I linked: Careful... thinking like them is dangerous. Understanding how they think, however, is necessary. Thinking like them is what brings us to the point of arguing whether it is more correct to call it a magazine well or a pistol grip.
As "gun rights people" we don't like to think that way, we actually think that way. The entire premise behind the SAFE act is flawed, say nothing of the individual logical and technical flaws that riddle the actual text. Unfortunately, they have forced us off the objective and we're left expending energy on inconsequential terrain such as 'is it a magwell or pistol grip'. Thinking like them keeps us mired here. If you have a Sub2000 I'm sorry. Sell it, register it (which is really just a delayed gift to the state) or whatever but realize that they got you on this one. Write it off and move on. |
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Maybe if the magazine doubled as a grip you'd be closer to the line (and probably have feeding issues), but as the sub 2K is I think it fits the definition of the SAFE Act.
I don't think the part in question has to be either a mag well or a pistol grip, it can be both. Just my $.02 |
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Hiram, I truly respect you as a long-time-contributing member, but your sarcasm is unwarranted. I too am sick and tired of all of this BS that has infected the HTF here, and elsewhere. I'm simply looking to elaborate on the topic... I'll quote another respectable post on the NYF thread that I linked: Quoted:
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You should ask the NYSP for a letter, I'm sure they will get one in the mail right away. Hiram, I truly respect you as a long-time-contributing member, but your sarcasm is unwarranted. I too am sick and tired of all of this BS that has infected the HTF here, and elsewhere. I'm simply looking to elaborate on the topic... I'll quote another respectable post on the NYF thread that I linked: Careful... thinking like them is dangerous. Understanding how they think, however, is necessary. Thinking like them is what brings us to the point of arguing whether it is more correct to call it a magazine well or a pistol grip.
As "gun rights people" we don't like to think that way, we actually think that way. The entire premise behind the SAFE act is flawed, say nothing of the individual logical and technical flaws that riddle the actual text. Unfortunately, they have forced us off the objective and we're left expending energy on inconsequential terrain such as 'is it a magwell or pistol grip'. Thinking like them keeps us mired here. If you have a Sub2000 I'm sorry. Sell it, register it (which is really just a delayed gift to the state) or whatever but realize that they got you on this one. Write it off and move on. Where am I wrong? The NYSP is not empowered to offer binding interpretation, but they always seem to overstep in what they say. The grip on a Sub2000 is undeniably a pistol grip, whether a magazine goes in it is irrelevant. I don't give a shit what anybody decides to do on their own, we all have to make our choices. However, when somebody offers an opinion that I think is blatantly wrong (and my opinions are based on my understanding of the law, conversations with attorneys, and conversations with LE who will be tasked with offering expert opinions when it comes to enforcement), I'll speak out on the erroneous advice offered if for no other reason than it gets people to think. If in the end they don't agree, and choose to pursue another option, they will do so with the benefit of considering all sides of the argument. If the pistol grip/magwell was cut at the level of the trigger, and the magazine had contours to grip, I think you'd be good to go from a purely technical argument. Using the same standards I think you'd be good and fucked with the pistol grip as it currently exists. |
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I Care to name a few? Everything I come up with has a pistol grip. Quoted:
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There are plenty of other 9mm carbines you could buy that shoot just as well and clearly do not fit the definition or require registration. Just sayin'... I Care to name a few? Everything I come up with has a pistol grip. I don't know about plenty, but there are a few. Marlin Camp 9mm and Ruger PC9, neither of which are easy to find. Citadel is making a M1 carbine in 9mm soon also. For whatever reason they went with Beretta 92 mags, should have gone with Glock mags IMO. |
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I Care to name a few? Everything I come up with has a pistol grip. Quoted:
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There are plenty of other 9mm carbines you could buy that shoot just as well and clearly do not fit the definition or require registration. Just sayin'... I Care to name a few? Everything I come up with has a pistol grip. Used market: Marlin Camp Carbines and Ruger PC series are both gtg. Several examples of both on gunbroker. New market: JR carbines is a NY manufacturer that says they have a NYS approved compliant model. Citadel has a 9mm M1 carbine that would be compliant with a plain barrel band. Personally I'd go used Marlin or Ruger. |
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Nothing personal, but given the fact that most of those carbines are out of production I'd go with a USGI carbine. At least you can still get parts and magazines. It is definitely a choice worthy of consideration, although .30 carbine ammo was pricey and scarce even before unSAFE. Common pistol caliber ammunition will always be less expensive and easier to find. Parts and mags really aren't much of an issue. The Marlin uses S&W 59 or 1911 mags depending on the caliber. The Ruger uses P series pistol mags. Marlin made a ton of Camp Carbines and they are still popular, so parts for them are still easy to find. I'm not as familiar with the Ruger but it has a good reputation. I think it is basically a simple centerfire version of a 10/22. |