Posted: 1/3/2017 1:27:58 AM EDT
| I will be submitting a set of Form 4s for the first time as a Harris County resident. For those who have done this under the new NFA form notification rules, where have you sent the CLEO copy of the forms and who, if anyone, should I direct them to? Thanks. |
|
Quoted:
I'm not aware of any CLEO in Harris County that is pro Civil Rights enough to sign off on NFA paperwork. The leadership in this county is generally left leaning/authoritarian historically. I would love to be surprised to the contrary. You no longer need their approval. you now only need to notify them. |
|
Quoted:
I will be submitting a set of Form 4s for the first time as a Harris County resident. For those who have done this under the new NFA form notification rules, where have you sent the CLEO copy of the forms and who, if anyone, should I direct them to? Thanks. AG Paxton |
If you're in unincorporated Harris County, then send to the Harris County Sheriff. If you live in an incorporated city, then that city's Police Chief. You are not asking permission for anything, only making them aware. My letters have been 2-3 sentences and mainly quoting from the application. I got the most joy from sending my SBR letter to Austin's Police Chief  
|
|
Not exactly what the OP asked, but related to what DT said about the instructions:
Attached File |
|
Quoted:
If you're in unincorporated Harris County, then send to the Harris County Sheriff. If you live in an incorporated city, then that city's Police Chief. You are not asking permission for anything, only making them aware. My letters have been 2-3 sentences and mainly quoting from the application. I got the most joy from sending my SBR letter to Austin's Police Chief Ok thanks. I understand the new rules and have submitted NFA paperwork for the sheriff in the county I previously lived in. What I was referring to was if anyone was aware of the specific person(s) at either the Harris County Sheriff's Office or Houston Police Department that I could send the forms to directly. |
|
Quoted:
What I was referring to was if anyone was aware of the specific person(s) at either the Harris County Sheriff's Office or Houston Police Department that I could send the forms to directly. The instructions give you the specific persons. For example, Sheriff, Harris County Chief, Houston Police Now if you want to map those titles to actual names, I guess you could google that and do that but there is no need, at least not on the envelope, but yes on form 4 |
|
Quoted:
The instructions give you the specific persons. For example, Sheriff, Harris County Chief, Houston Police Now if you want to map those titles to actual names, I guess you could google that and do that but there is no need, at least not on the envelope, but yes on form 4 Sheriff Ed Gonzalez it is then. Thanks. |
|
Quoted:
wow, someone asks a simple question and this is your reply...i hope your customers love your real attitude!  Apparently they do, I've done 400+ NFA transfers in the last year. And if you've read my other posts you'll note that Steve McCraw, Director of Texas DPS sent back my first post 41F Form 4 CLEO copy.... saying it had to be signed by the Collin Co. Sheriff. He didn't read the instructions either. 
|
|
Quoted:
You might specify what's enclosed below the address line, example "ATF Form X Enclosed" I've had mail from them returned [sent to the 1200 baker st address] because we didn't specify which PRISONER it was for. Got a good laugh about that. The forms were returned to me today and I had that exact same stupid sticker on my envelope. Did you re-label with that additional description and resend? Any luck if so? Thanks. |
|
Quoted:
Apparently they do, I've done 400+ NFA transfers in the last year. And if you've read my other posts you'll note that Steve McCraw, Director of Texas DPS sent back my first post 41F Form 4 CLEO copy.... saying it had to be signed by the Collin Co. Sheriff. He didn't read the instructions either. Your notification is completed at that point
|
|
Quoted:
The forms were returned to me today and I had that exact same stupid sticker on my envelope. Did you re-label with that additional description and resend? Any luck if so? Thanks. Fun right? Have had no problems since the addition of what ATF form the envelope contained. |
|
Quoted:
I would argue that your notification is complete. it is not your fault they did not open the mail or read the envelope correctly It's a silly requirement, but the documentation getting bounced by some department mail room employee does not constitute notification to the CLEO - would be a investigator/prosecutor argument, or so I'd guess.  If the CLEO had applied the 'no prisoner specified' stamp himself, that argument might have more merit. |
|
Quoted:
It's a silly requirement, but the documentation getting bounced by some department mail room employee does not constitute notification to the CLEO - would be a investigator/prosecutor argument, or so I'd guess.  If the CLEO had applied the 'no prisoner specified' stamp himself, that argument might have more merit. Do you have a citation to the requirement that the CLEO himself must open the envelope?
I'll save you the trouble....no such requirement. You just mail the damn form to the CLEO. No proof of receipt by the CLEO is required. No proof the CLEO opened it required. No proof the CLEO read it required. No proof the CLEO understands what he read is required. Why people want to make this harder than it needs to be is beyond comprehension. 
|
|
Quoted:
Do you have a citation to the requirement that the CLEO himself must open the envelope?
I'll save you the trouble....no such requirement. You just mail the damn form to the CLEO. No proof of receipt by the CLEO is required. No proof the CLEO opened it required. No proof the CLEO read it required. No proof the CLEO understands what he read is required. Why people want to make this harder than it needs to be is beyond comprehension. There's making things harder, then there's taking reasonable steps to avoid being jammed up for stupid shit you could have avoided with minimum effort. If you're holding an unopened envelope in your hand that was returned to sender. Have you met the definition of provide notification? You may have have met the seemingly conflicting instruction 'direct[ed]....to' but not the former. Lawyers can make a case on a comma, let alone a definition, or intent. I'll let somebody else have the glory of being a test case. 12. Law Enforcement Notification (See instruction 2f) The transferee is to provide notification... The form also includes instruction to the CLEO. 2. Preparation of Application f. Law Enforcement Notification. The transferee must provide a copy of the Form 4 to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) who had jurisdiction... l. Submission. ....The applicant shall direct the 3rd copy (CLEO) complete copy of the form to the chief law enforcement officer as provided in instruction 2f and item 12. CERTIFICATION: Under penalties imposed by ... I certified that upon submission of this form to ATF, a completed copy of this will be directed to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) shown in item 12... |
|
Quoted:
There's making things harder, then there's taking reasonable steps to avoid being jammed up for stupid shit you could have avoided with minimum effort. If you're holding an unopened envelope in your hand that was returned to sender. Have you met the definition of provide notification? You may have have met the seemingly conflicting instruction 'direct[ed]....to' but not the former. Lawyers can make a case on a comma, let alone a definition, or intent. I'll let somebody else have the glory of being a test case. 12. Law Enforcement Notification (See instruction 2f) The transferee is to provide notification... The form also includes instruction to the CLEO. 2. Preparation of Application f. Law Enforcement Notification. The transferee must provide a copy of the Form 4 to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) who had jurisdiction... l. Submission. ....The applicant shall direct the 3rd copy (CLEO) complete copy of the form to the chief law enforcement officer as provided in instruction 2f and item 12. CERTIFICATION: Under penalties imposed by ... I certified that upon submission of this form to ATF, a completed copy of this will be directed to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) shown in item 12... Quoted:
Quoted:
Do you have a citation to the requirement that the CLEO himself must open the envelope?
I'll save you the trouble....no such requirement. You just mail the damn form to the CLEO. No proof of receipt by the CLEO is required. No proof the CLEO opened it required. No proof the CLEO read it required. No proof the CLEO understands what he read is required. Why people want to make this harder than it needs to be is beyond comprehension. There's making things harder, then there's taking reasonable steps to avoid being jammed up for stupid shit you could have avoided with minimum effort. If you're holding an unopened envelope in your hand that was returned to sender. Have you met the definition of provide notification? You may have have met the seemingly conflicting instruction 'direct[ed]....to' but not the former. Lawyers can make a case on a comma, let alone a definition, or intent. I'll let somebody else have the glory of being a test case. 12. Law Enforcement Notification (See instruction 2f) The transferee is to provide notification... The form also includes instruction to the CLEO. 2. Preparation of Application f. Law Enforcement Notification. The transferee must provide a copy of the Form 4 to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) who had jurisdiction... l. Submission. ....The applicant shall direct the 3rd copy (CLEO) complete copy of the form to the chief law enforcement officer as provided in instruction 2f and item 12. CERTIFICATION: Under penalties imposed by ... I certified that upon submission of this form to ATF, a completed copy of this will be directed to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) shown in item 12... Again, nonsense. And having an unopened envelope (addressed to your CLEO) returned to you? ......IT HAS A FUCKING POSTMARK! That's pretty damn good proof that you did comply with requirements. I'm sure your head will explode when you find out the CLEO isn't even required to keep his copy of a Form1/4.
Sooooo.........now that you know the CLEO can trash his copy of a Form1/4 the day he gets it.........what other conspiracy theories can you come up with? Oh....for your reading pleasure: (see the bolded paragraph on pg 2) ATF letter to CLEO's |
|
Quoted:
Again, nonsense. And having an unopened envelope (addressed to your CLEO) returned to you? ......IT HAS A FUCKING POSTMARK! That's pretty damn good proof that you did comply with requirements. I'm sure your head will explode when you find out the CLEO isn't even required to keep his copy of a Form1/4.
Sooooo.........now that you know the CLEO can trash his copy of a Form1/4 the day he gets it.........what other conspiracy theories can you come up with? Oh....for your reading pleasure: (see the bolded paragraph on pg 2) ATF letter to CLEO's I hear what you are saying and agree to a certain extent. As far as I know, the Sheriff could receive my envelope and immediately light it on fire and dance around the flames without ever reviewing what's inside. That being said, for the cost of postage it's probably best to at least send it again, this time with a known method of addressing the envelope in order to have a better chance it does not get returned. However, if I follow the advice above, and it still gets sent back to me, into the circular filing bin they go after photographic proof of my efforts are documented. |
|
Quoted:
So are you saying they're intentionally trying to hold up any transfers by intentionally not accepting a legal notification? Any lack on their part to receive and retain the CLEO copy will not hold up the transfer. Like I mentioned, what the CLEO does with the paperwork, if anything, is inconsequential. Some may file the forms. Others may destroy them. But I imagine the great majority don't even know what it is that they are being sent and opt for the latter. |
|
Quoted:
Again, nonsense. And having an unopened envelope (addressed to your CLEO) returned to you? ......IT HAS A FUCKING POSTMARK! That's pretty damn good proof that you did comply with requirements. I'm sure your head will explode when you find out the CLEO isn't even required to keep his copy of a Form1/4.
Sooooo.........now that you know the CLEO can trash his copy of a Form1/4 the day he gets it.........what other conspiracy theories can you come up with? Oh....for your reading pleasure: (see the bolded paragraph on pg 2) ATF letter to CLEO's It's a hell of a conspiracy, following, or at least attempting to follow, the instructions as written. Get two lawyers together and ask them if that meets 'provide notification'. You'll get 3 different answers and an expensive lunch tab. |
|
Quoted:
I hear what you are saying and agree to a certain extent. As far as I know, the Sheriff could receive my envelope and immediately light it on fire and dance around the flames without ever reviewing what's inside. That being said, for the cost of postage it's probably best to at least send it again, this time with a known method of addressing the envelope in order to have a better chance it does not get returned. However, if I follow the advice above, and it still gets sent back to me, into the circular filing bin they go after photographic proof of my efforts are documented. "photographic proof" ROFL In case you did not know it, the USPS take a photo of your envelope for you. So if you ever need "photographic proof" you can get it from them.
|
|
Quoted:
AG Paxton Serious question - Would that qualify? Is he considered head of the state police or would that be the DPS director? I've always disliked the idea of notifying the local police chief/sheriff, and would much prefer to send the notification to the state AG, with reasonable confidence that it would get round-filed. |
|
Quoted:
Serious question - Would that qualify? Is he considered head of the state police or would that be the DPS director? AG has always been accepted by ATF as CLEO. Abbott was my go-to person for CLEO sigs when local/county police would not sign. In Texas McCaw is head of State Police/DPS. He is valid CLEO too. |
|
Quoted:
l. Submission. ....The applicant shall direct the 3rd copy (CLEO) complete copy of the form to the chief law enforcement officer as provided in instruction 2f and item 12. CERTIFICATION: Under penalties imposed by ... I certified that upon submission of this form to ATF, a completed copy of this will be directed to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) shown in item 12... Words, What Do They Mean? https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/direct Definition of direct 1 a obsolete : to write (a letter) to a person b : to mark with the name and address of the intended recipient c : to impart orally directed the remark to her fellow senators d : to adapt in expression so as to have particular applicability arguments directed at the emotions Your legal requirement is to "direct" it to the CLEO, you have no legal requirements after that is complete. |
|
Mail it certified mail with signature required for delivery.
That has held up in court for years as proof of mailing and delivery. Keep the receipt with the rest of your NFA paperwork. OR, just mail it. You've done your part and went way out of your way to comply with an unconstitutional law (I say this as a guy with 4 or so stamps). |