Posted: 4/6/2016 3:14:23 AM EDT
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Due to health reasons Im going to be selling a bunch of guns, approx 12 total (mostly ARs and 1911s) Ive got a guy I know who'll buy them all hes squeeky clean class3 etc. should I go thru my ffl or just do a FTF with a bill of sale? Are There any limitations on how many I can sell as/to an individual? I know I can make more selling them piecemeal but this would make things easier
Please no political rants about how its a free society or 2nd ammendment rants Just want to know if anybody knows if it's within the law |
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Quoted: Due to health reasons Im going to be selling a bunch of guns, approx 12 total (mostly ARs and 1911s) Ive got a guy I know who'll buy them all hes squeeky clean class3 etc. should I go thru my ffl or just do a FTF with a bill of sale? Are There any limitations on how many I can sell as/to an individual? I know I can make more selling them piecemeal but this would make things easier Please no political rants about how its a free society or 2nd ammendment rants Just want to know if anybody knows if it's within the law So far in TX it's legal to sell personal property without government permission. |
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No law broken, as long as buyer is not prohibited by law to own firearms. I would do FTF, with BOS. Good luck, and sorry about your health. Btw, I'm no lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, either. I just stayed at Motel 6 last night. DO NOT DO A BOS. This is not required by law and does NOT protect the seller as some here would think (this has been discussed many times here). |
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DO NOT DO A BOS. This is not required by law and does NOT protect the seller as some here would think (this has been discussed many times here). Quoted:
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No law broken, as long as buyer is not prohibited by law to own firearms. I would do FTF, with BOS. Good luck, and sorry about your health. Btw, I'm no lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, either. I just stayed at Motel 6 last night. DO NOT DO A BOS. This is not required by law and does NOT protect the seller as some here would think (this has been discussed many times here). Yep and 12 guns is an easy slam dunk dealing without a license if they want to force the issue. |
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Yep and 12 guns is an easy slam dunk dealing without a license if they want to force the issue. Quoted:
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No law broken, as long as buyer is not prohibited by law to own firearms. I would do FTF, with BOS. Good luck, and sorry about your health. Btw, I'm no lawyer, and I don't play one on TV, either. I just stayed at Motel 6 last night. DO NOT DO A BOS. This is not required by law and does NOT protect the seller as some here would think (this has been discussed many times here). Yep and 12 guns is an easy slam dunk dealing without a license if they want to force the issue. I disagree. Happens all the time with estate sales and others who are collectors. To be considered "engaged in the business" takes more than a one time sale of a dozen guns. |
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I disagree. Happens all the time with estate sales and others who are collectors. Quoted:
I disagree. Happens all the time with estate sales and others who are collectors. As you mention, there are many mitigating circumstances. OP did not mention he was a collector, nor did he state he was dead and it was an estate sale. Quoted:
To be considered "engaged in the business" takes more than a one time sale of a dozen guns. No it doesn't. Right off the whitehouse.gov https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/01/04/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present. Whether other factors are present, OP did not say. Odds are he does not know what they are. Many of the folks who got prosecuted had no idea the Case Law already established that sunk them. The simple fact is a BOS is all downside, and no upside. |
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As you mention, there are many mitigating circumstances. OP did not mention he was a collector, nor did he state he was dead and it was an estate sale. One gun is a "collection". He's a nonlicensee, nothing in ATF regs prohibits someone from selling any or all of the firearms from their personal collection. And if someone were dead, their estate can sell or otherwise dispose of firearms without need for an FFL. No it doesn't. Yes, it does.....read the ATF regulation 478.11(c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms; Right off the whitehouse.gov Whitehouse.gov isn't the ATF and most certainly isn't directly quoting ATF regulations. https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/01/04/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present. Please don't fall for the Obama Executive Actions nonsense from January.........nothing new was acted upon, no new regulations were presented, Obama didn't change the definition of dealing in firearms. Note the term "other factors"  Those "other factors" would be the repetitive buying and selling of firearms for profit.
Whether other factors are present, OP did not say. Odds are he does not know what they are. Many of the folks who got prosecuted had no idea the Case Law already established that sunk them. Whut? 
What the OP describes is 100% legal for a nonlicensee. If the OP makes a habit of flipping guns it's an entirely different situation.........but he's not. His illness is forcing him to get rid of some guns from his personal collection. It doesn't matter if it's 12 or 120. The simple fact is a BOS is all downside, and no upside. I don't disagree that a BOS is useless, just that someone selling firearms from their personal collection is not necessarily engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. Quoted:
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I disagree. Happens all the time with estate sales and others who are collectors. As you mention, there are many mitigating circumstances. OP did not mention he was a collector, nor did he state he was dead and it was an estate sale. One gun is a "collection". He's a nonlicensee, nothing in ATF regs prohibits someone from selling any or all of the firearms from their personal collection. And if someone were dead, their estate can sell or otherwise dispose of firearms without need for an FFL. Quoted:
To be considered "engaged in the business" takes more than a one time sale of a dozen guns. No it doesn't. Yes, it does.....read the ATF regulation 478.11(c) Dealer in firearms other than a gunsmith or a pawnbroker. A person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms; Right off the whitehouse.gov Whitehouse.gov isn't the ATF and most certainly isn't directly quoting ATF regulations. https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2016/01/04/fact-sheet-new-executive-actions-reduce-gun-violence-and-make-our For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present. Please don't fall for the Obama Executive Actions nonsense from January.........nothing new was acted upon, no new regulations were presented, Obama didn't change the definition of dealing in firearms. Note the term "other factors" Those "other factors" would be the repetitive buying and selling of firearms for profit.
Whether other factors are present, OP did not say. Odds are he does not know what they are. Many of the folks who got prosecuted had no idea the Case Law already established that sunk them. Whut?
What the OP describes is 100% legal for a nonlicensee. If the OP makes a habit of flipping guns it's an entirely different situation.........but he's not. His illness is forcing him to get rid of some guns from his personal collection. It doesn't matter if it's 12 or 120. The simple fact is a BOS is all downside, and no upside. I don't disagree that a BOS is useless, just that someone selling firearms from their personal collection is not necessarily engaged in the business of dealing in firearms. |
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Face to face with you filling out a Bill of Sale for both parties.
www.Texasguntrader.com has a good blank form bill of sale to use. Shit, apparently these are bad. The buyer almost never asks me for one, but I always fill out one on the buyer and throw it in a folder. |
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should get buyer's driver license? Should verify buyer's hunting license if s/he is non-citizen/non-permanent resident? should give seller's driver license to buyer? seems the best is to sell to CHL holders. It's not your job to figure that out, but if you want to that's fine. In state plates = gtg in my book. |
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Dogtown Tom is correct. Guys, you have to look at the intent of the person doing the sales. If the person has the intent to break the law, that raises the red flags with law enforcement. Most of the time a simple explanation will put any issues to bed. If your intent is to flip guns for a profit and you devote a lot of time and attention to it, then you are probably 'engaged in the business'. If your intent is to raise some capital for medical expenses, you are not 'engaged in the business'. Those are the rules that we at the .gov have to follow.
To do a BOS or get identifiers on the buyer is up to you. I've done both. If one of your guns becomes the subject of a gun trace, you could be contacted by law enforcement. Showing that BOS or ID of the purchaser will provide the cops with a further lead to pursue and take the heat off of you. |
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If one of your guns becomes the subject of a gun trace, you could be contacted by law enforcement. Showing that BOS or ID of the purchaser will provide the cops with a further lead to pursue and take the heat off of you. ROFL Sounds like something Shipley would have said before his fellow Feds gave him a reality check... It amazes me how folks continue to ignore reality and keep getting rolled up for the same thing. 35+ years and counting. |
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...Showing that BOS or ID of the purchaser will provide the cops with a further lead to pursue and take the heat off of you. Horseshit. Do you really think a BOS is a "Leave Me alone" card? 
I can print you a BOS on the gun that killed Lincoln, JFK, MLK or Tupac. A BOS is only of any value to the BUYER.......it's proof of his purchase. It proves jack squat for anyone else. |
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Dogtown Tom is correct. Guys, you have to look at the intent of the person doing the sales. If the person has the intent to break the law, that raises the red flags with law enforcement. Most of the time a simple explanation will put any issues to bed. If your intent is to flip guns for a profit and you devote a lot of time and attention to it, then you are probably 'engaged in the business'. If your intent is to raise some capital for medical expenses, you are not 'engaged in the business'. Those are the rules that we at the .gov have to follow. To do a BOS or get identifiers on the buyer is up to you. I've done both. If one of your guns becomes the subject of a gun trace, you could be contacted by law enforcement. Showing that BOS or ID of the purchaser will provide the cops with a further lead to pursue and take the heat off of you. Not really. If the name of the purchaser on the BOS or ID is the name of someone they think is a bad guy then it can bring the hammer down harder on the seller. Without you providing that evidence against yourself that links you to the bad guy they have no evidence to prove that you didn't sell it to some other person who themselves may or may not have sold it to the bad guy. And keeping records of sales is something that people "engaged in the business" would do. People who aren't in business have no reason to need to keep any records. Evidence that doesn't exist can't be used against you. |
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Face to face with you filling out a Bill of Sale for both parties. www.Texasguntrader.com has a good blank form bill of sale to use. Shit, apparently these are bad. The buyer almost never asks me for one, but I always fill out one on the buyer and throw it in a folder. Take that folder and put it in your shredder. Then take the shreddings and burn them. Any evidence like this can only be used against you, it will not help you at all. For example if you have a big folder full of guns you've sold... well, that's evidence you are "in the business" because there is a big number of guns sold and you kept records, which only someone in business would do, nobody who wasn't in business would need to keep any records. No reason to give some unscrupulous federal prosecutor reason to charge you. Evidence that doesn't exist can't be used against you. |
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Several years ago, I received a letter from a detective from some town in California, inquiring about a Glock pistol that I has previously owned. I called the number on the letter and the detective informed that the pistol was used in a crime in his city and wanted to know how my pistol ended up in California. I told him that I did not know and I had sold the pistol two or three years earlier. He wanted to know who I sold the pistol to. He seemed upset when I told him that I did not remember the man’s name and had no record of the transaction. Our conversation was over.
End of story… |
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Several years ago, I received a letter from a detective from some town in California, inquiring about a Glock pistol that I has previously owned. I called the number on the letter and the detective informed that the pistol was used in a crime in his city and wanted to know how my pistol ended up in California. I told him that I did not know and I had sold the pistol two or three years earlier. He wanted to know who I sold the pistol to. He seemed upset when I told him that I did not remember the man’s name and had no record of the transaction. Our conversation was over. End of story… Exactly the way it should be. Unlike California which has registration and you have to sell all firearms through a dealer, Texas is a free state. |
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Not really. If the name of the purchaser on the BOS or ID is the name of someone they think is a bad guy then it can bring the hammer down harder on the seller. Without you providing that evidence against yourself that links you to the bad guy they have no evidence to prove that you didn't sell it to some other person who themselves may or may not have sold it to the bad guy. And keeping records of sales is something that people "engaged in the business" would do. People who aren't in business have no reason to need to keep any records. Evidence that doesn't exist can't be used against you. Quoted:
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Dogtown Tom is correct. Guys, you have to look at the intent of the person doing the sales. If the person has the intent to break the law, that raises the red flags with law enforcement. Most of the time a simple explanation will put any issues to bed. If your intent is to flip guns for a profit and you devote a lot of time and attention to it, then you are probably 'engaged in the business'. If your intent is to raise some capital for medical expenses, you are not 'engaged in the business'. Those are the rules that we at the .gov have to follow. To do a BOS or get identifiers on the buyer is up to you. I've done both. If one of your guns becomes the subject of a gun trace, you could be contacted by law enforcement. Showing that BOS or ID of the purchaser will provide the cops with a further lead to pursue and take the heat off of you. Not really. If the name of the purchaser on the BOS or ID is the name of someone they think is a bad guy then it can bring the hammer down harder on the seller. Without you providing that evidence against yourself that links you to the bad guy they have no evidence to prove that you didn't sell it to some other person who themselves may or may not have sold it to the bad guy. And keeping records of sales is something that people "engaged in the business" would do. People who aren't in business have no reason to need to keep any records. Evidence that doesn't exist can't be used against you. A Supervisory Special Agent at ATF who is a friend of mine told me exactly the part in red, almost word for word. |