Posted: 1/9/2016 6:25:19 PM EDT
| Hello my brother and his wife have signed up to take their first CHL class. They are not big gun enthusiasts and they had asked me about a handgun for her to qualify/carry as she is petite and a little recoil sensitive. I informed them that the CHL law stated .32 or larger to qualify with I told them that the new Ruger LCR .327, would be a good first gun for her and that they can shoot a different array of .32 cartridges based on recoil. When they got the revolver we all went out and shot it, she loves it and is very accurate with the 32 s&w long. He just told me that the gun store where they are going to take their class told him that its a minimum .32 in an auto but its .38 spl in a revolver. I told him thats not right and to go to another place but they have already paid their money last month to book the class. Now I just found in the Texas CHL Laws book on page 19, ss 411.188, where it states ".32 caliber or above". I told him to go to another place but he said he will loose their deposits if they did that, then I told him to call Austin and tell them what he was told, but they dont want to stir anything up. He also said the gun shop has a LCR 38 loaner that she can rent for the class. So what does the Texas hive think they should they do? |
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Hello my brother and his wife have signed up to take their first CHL class. They are not big gun enthusiasts and they had asked me about a handgun for her to qualify/carry as she is petite and a little recoil sensitive. I informed them that the CHL law stated .32 or larger to qualify with I told them that the new Ruger LCR .327, would be a good first gun for her and that they can shoot a different array of .32 cartridges based on recoil. When they got the revolver we all went out and shot it, she loves it and is very accurate with the 32 s&w long. He just told me that the gun store where they are going to take their class told him that its a minimum .32 in an auto but its .38 spl in a revolver. I told him thats not right and to go to another place but they have already paid their money last month to book the class. Now I just found in the Texas CHL Laws book on page 19, ss 411.188, where it states ".32 caliber or above". I told him to go to another place but he said he will loose their deposits if they did that, then I told him to call Austin and tell them what he was told, but they dont want to stir anything up. He also said the gun shop has a LCR 38 loaner that she can rent for the class. So what does the Texas hive think they should they do? They should show up with their gun that qualifies and tell the instructor that they will report them to DPS if they don't do one of two things 1) allow them to use their .32 or 2) give them their deposit back. I would also take a copy of the law with me when I go to talk to them. |
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I believe that law was written when the CHL was different for Auto and Revolvers. A few years back they had a stupid law that if you took the CHL course with a revolver, you could ONLY carry a revolver (What a fucking stupid rule).
They changed it since then, so anything .32 should work. |
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They should show up with their gun that qualifies and tell the instructor that they will report them to DPS if they don't do one of two things 1) allow them to use their .32 or 2) give them their deposit back. I would also take a copy of the law with me when I go to talk to them. Quoted:
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Hello my brother and his wife have signed up to take their first CHL class. They are not big gun enthusiasts and they had asked me about a handgun for her to qualify/carry as she is petite and a little recoil sensitive. I informed them that the CHL law stated .32 or larger to qualify with I told them that the new Ruger LCR .327, would be a good first gun for her and that they can shoot a different array of .32 cartridges based on recoil. When they got the revolver we all went out and shot it, she loves it and is very accurate with the 32 s&w long. He just told me that the gun store where they are going to take their class told him that its a minimum .32 in an auto but its .38 spl in a revolver. I told him thats not right and to go to another place but they have already paid their money last month to book the class. Now I just found in the Texas CHL Laws book on page 19, ss 411.188, where it states ".32 caliber or above". I told him to go to another place but he said he will loose their deposits if they did that, then I told him to call Austin and tell them what he was told, but they dont want to stir anything up. He also said the gun shop has a LCR 38 loaner that she can rent for the class. So what does the Texas hive think they should they do? They should show up with their gun that qualifies and tell the instructor that they will report them to DPS if they don't do one of two things 1) allow them to use their .32 or 2) give them their deposit back. I would also take a copy of the law with me when I go to talk to them. Good advice |
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Name the Instructor. eta Looks like 327 Federal Magnum has an actual caliber of .313 inches. http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_drawings/Pistol/327%20Federal%20Magnum.pdf The 44 mag is .429, the .35 s&w is a .31", and the 32 acp is actually a .31" as well. The 32 acp the shop will allow. I believe we all know that the DPS is referencing the cartridge designation, and not giving CHL instructors measuring calipers with plus or minus tolerances. Edit: To reinforce my belief the CHL Law Book states .32 caliber or above, not .32" (inch) or above |
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I believe that law was written when the CHL was different for Auto and Revolvers. A few years back they had a stupid law that if you took the CHL course with a revolver, you could ONLY carry a revolver (What a fucking stupid rule). They changed it since then, so anything .32 should work. The caliber designation was never different for autos and revolvers |
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The caliber designation was never different for autos and revolvers Quoted:
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I believe that law was written when the CHL was different for Auto and Revolvers. A few years back they had a stupid law that if you took the CHL course with a revolver, you could ONLY carry a revolver (What a fucking stupid rule). They changed it since then, so anything .32 should work. The caliber designation was never different for autos and revolvers I was in 1st Instructor class in 1995 and it was min 9mm or 38SPL when law was enacted in 1995. I think it was changed/clarified in 1997 since law did not specify which was which for auto/revolver as you point out. One of many things fixed in 1997. |
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No the law (not DPS) clearly says 32 caliber or above. 318 caliber does not make it. Quoted:
Quoted:I believe we all know that the DPS is referencing the cartridge designation, and not giving CHL instructors measuring calipers with plus or minus tolerances. No the law (not DPS) clearly says 32 caliber or above. 318 caliber does not make it. For some one wanting to split hairs one way and then disregard for the other? The "law" is in the DPS CHL Law Book. That is why I said DPS but technically Im wrong so my mistake, but if you want to be anal about it then why would the shop allow 32 acp? Why does the DPS law (book) state caliber, instead of actual diameter in inches as you have pointed out? If your bored and want to argue thats your prerogative but this is about as far as Im going to entertain the caliber vs actual diameter thing. |
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For some one wanting to split hairs one way and then disregard for the other? The "law" is in the DPS CHL Law Book. That is why I said DPS but technically Im wrong so my mistake, but if you want to be anal about it then why would the shop allow 32 acp? Why does the DPS law (book) state caliber, instead of actual diameter in inches as you have pointed out? If your bored and want to argue thats your prerogative but this is about as far as Im going to entertain the caliber vs actual diameter thing. Quoted:
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Quoted:I believe we all know that the DPS is referencing the cartridge designation, and not giving CHL instructors measuring calipers with plus or minus tolerances. No the law (not DPS) clearly says 32 caliber or above. 318 caliber does not make it. For some one wanting to split hairs one way and then disregard for the other? The "law" is in the DPS CHL Law Book. That is why I said DPS but technically Im wrong so my mistake, but if you want to be anal about it then why would the shop allow 32 acp? Why does the DPS law (book) state caliber, instead of actual diameter in inches as you have pointed out? If your bored and want to argue thats your prerogative but this is about as far as Im going to entertain the caliber vs actual diameter thing. The law and the what the handbook quotes are the same. The cartridge 327 Federal Magnum is 318 caliber. Sorry if you do not understand that. |
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I was in 1st Instructor class in 1995 and it was min 9mm or 38SPL when law was enacted in 1995. I think it was changed/clarified in 1997 since law did not specify which was which for auto/revolver as you point out. One of many things fixed in 1997. Quoted:
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I believe that law was written when the CHL was different for Auto and Revolvers. A few years back they had a stupid law that if you took the CHL course with a revolver, you could ONLY carry a revolver (What a fucking stupid rule). They changed it since then, so anything .32 should work. The caliber designation was never different for autos and revolvers I was in 1st Instructor class in 1995 and it was min 9mm or 38SPL when law was enacted in 1995. I think it was changed/clarified in 1997 since law did not specify which was which for auto/revolver as you point out. One of many things fixed in 1997. I looked back as far as I could find and found no difference. If you remember that differently then OK by me. I wasn't in the original instructor class. For guards the minimum is still 9mm or .38 |
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I looked back as far as I could find and found no difference. If you remember that differently then OK by me. I wasn't in the original instructor class. For guards the minimum is still 9mm or .38 Quoted:
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I believe that law was written when the CHL was different for Auto and Revolvers. A few years back they had a stupid law that if you took the CHL course with a revolver, you could ONLY carry a revolver (What a fucking stupid rule). They changed it since then, so anything .32 should work. The caliber designation was never different for autos and revolvers I was in 1st Instructor class in 1995 and it was min 9mm or 38SPL when law was enacted in 1995. I think it was changed/clarified in 1997 since law did not specify which was which for auto/revolver as you point out. One of many things fixed in 1997. I looked back as far as I could find and found no difference. If you remember that differently then OK by me. I wasn't in the original instructor class. For guards the minimum is still 9mm or .38 SB60 in the 1995 session. Just checked, Bill still is online. |
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SB60 in the 1995 session. Just checked, Bill still is online. Quoted:
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I believe that law was written when the CHL was different for Auto and Revolvers. A few years back they had a stupid law that if you took the CHL course with a revolver, you could ONLY carry a revolver (What a fucking stupid rule). They changed it since then, so anything .32 should work. The caliber designation was never different for autos and revolvers I was in 1st Instructor class in 1995 and it was min 9mm or 38SPL when law was enacted in 1995. I think it was changed/clarified in 1997 since law did not specify which was which for auto/revolver as you point out. One of many things fixed in 1997. I looked back as far as I could find and found no difference. If you remember that differently then OK by me. I wasn't in the original instructor class. For guards the minimum is still 9mm or .38 SB60 in the 1995 session. Just checked, Bill still is online. Thanks |
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The law and the what the handbook quotes are the same. The cartridge 327 Federal Magnum is 318 caliber. Sorry if you do not understand that. Quoted:
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Quoted:I believe we all know that the DPS is referencing the cartridge designation, and not giving CHL instructors measuring calipers with plus or minus tolerances. No the law (not DPS) clearly says 32 caliber or above. 318 caliber does not make it. For some one wanting to split hairs one way and then disregard for the other? The "law" is in the DPS CHL Law Book. That is why I said DPS but technically Im wrong so my mistake, but if you want to be anal about it then why would the shop allow 32 acp? Why does the DPS law (book) state caliber, instead of actual diameter in inches as you have pointed out? If your bored and want to argue thats your prerogative but this is about as far as Im going to entertain the caliber vs actual diameter thing. The law and the what the handbook quotes are the same. The cartridge 327 Federal Magnum is 318 caliber. Sorry if you do not understand that. The "32" acp typically has a bullet diameter of .311. The "327" FM typically has a bullet diameter of .312. According to your reasoning, neither would qualify as a ".32" caliber, although the 327FM would come slightly closer. |
| You don't have to use your carry gun to qualify. Have her take the class with a full size Glock 9mm and run some 115 grain Blazer or American Eagle rounds. Those things are as soft as mouse farts. In the class that I took, we had someone that was legally blind that had never even shot a gun pass the shooting qualification with that combo. I wouldn't bother arguing with the instructors. |
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Here is the bill where the requirement was changed from "a 9-millimeter or .38-caliber handgun" to "a handgun of .32 caliber or above".
http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/75R/billtext/html/HB02909F.htm |
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Quoted: Here is the bill where the requirement was changed from "a 9-millimeter or .38-caliber handgun" to "a handgun of .32 caliber or above". http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/75R/billtext/html/HB02909F.htm Doesn't say the bore has to be .32 caliber, just the handgun. Whatever the ammo box says should be the end of it. |
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I tend to agree. Quoted:
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Whatever the ammo box says should be the end of it. I tend to agree. I agree with this, too. I was simply pointing out that if a 327FM wouldn't qualify because it isn't actually a .32 caliber then a .32acp would also be disqualified. |
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I agree with this, too. I was simply pointing out that if a 327FM wouldn't qualify because it isn't actually a .32 caliber then a .32acp would also be disqualified. Quoted:
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Whatever the ammo box says should be the end of it. I tend to agree. I agree with this, too. I was simply pointing out that if a 327FM wouldn't qualify because it isn't actually a .32 caliber then a .32acp would also be disqualified. Yeah, it appears the legislature used nominal calibers here, not actual bullet diameters, because of the parallel construction of ".38 caliber" and ".32 caliber". As discussed previously in this thread, the actual diameter of those bullets is more like .357 and .312. So a .327 FM should be fine for the CHL test. The challenge will be convincing the CHL instructor the OP is discussing however. |
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Yeah, it appears the legislature used nominal calibers here, not actual bullet diameters, because of the parallel construction of ".38 caliber" and ".32 caliber". It was never 38 caliber. The original law was 9mm or 38 Special. One is a caliber and one is a cartridge. Then they went to 32 caliber. So it has been caliber only now for a long while. There was a bill to go to 22 caliber but it did not pass. As other said, non-issue if OP instructor still thinks 9mm is the rule. |
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Yeah, it appears the legislature used nominal calibers here, not actual bullet diameters, because of the parallel construction of ".38 caliber" and ".32 caliber". As discussed previously in this thread, the actual diameter of those bullets is more like .357 and .312. So a .327 FM should be fine for the CHL test. The challenge will be convincing the CHL instructor the OP is discussing however. Quoted:
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Whatever the ammo box says should be the end of it. I tend to agree. I agree with this, too. I was simply pointing out that if a 327FM wouldn't qualify because it isn't actually a .32 caliber then a .32acp would also be disqualified. Yeah, it appears the legislature used nominal calibers here, not actual bullet diameters, because of the parallel construction of ".38 caliber" and ".32 caliber". As discussed previously in this thread, the actual diameter of those bullets is more like .357 and .312. So a .327 FM should be fine for the CHL test. The challenge will be convincing the CHL instructor the OP is discussing however. I emailed the shop asking the same question I posed in the opening. The person I corresponded with was the same who told my brother no 32 revolvers. Also they freely admitted that they didn't know about the law change years ago and would now allow the .32 revolver. Later I received an email from them saying that after more research they would not allow the .327 because it uses a .31" bullet. They also said the 32 acp which they absolutely knew was legal is also a .31" diameter bullet and could not figure out why 32 caliber cartridges use .31" diameter bullets because caliber is the diameter. I pointed out all 32 calibers I know of use .31" bullets and that caliber vs bullet diameter is two different things. Just like the caliber 270 Winchester uses .277" diameter bullets. So the shop is good and confused now and said that they were going to email the DPS about all this and what ever the DPS decides is what they are going to do because they want to be within the law. I left them with this thought though, under the old law of .38 or larger did your shop give out CHL's to people that "qualified" with a .357 mag or 9mm revolver because those calibers use .355 and .357 diameter bullets and are well under your "interpretation" of the .38 caliber minimum as it was written in the law? |
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I pointed out all 32 calibers I know of use .31" bullets and that caliber vs bullet diameter is two different things. Quoted:
I pointed out all 32 calibers I know of use .31" bullets and that caliber vs bullet diameter is two different things. No this is where you are mistaken. Caliber and Bullet Diameter are the same thing, just expressed differently. Caliber and Cartridge are different. Quoted:
I left them with this thought though, under the old law of .38 or larger did your shop give out CHL's to people that "qualified" with a .357 mag or 9mm revolver because those calibers use .355 and .357 diameter bullets and are well under your "interpretation" of the .38 caliber minimum as it was written in the law? When the law was 9mm or 38 Special, it only lasted 2 years. So it is unlikely they were an instructor as there were only a handful of instructors during that period and few people getting a CHL, most serious shooters. All of my students back then who had 38/357 revolvers qual''d with 38 Special. I think you are making too much of this. It is easy to qual. Find another gun not in dispute and use that for the qual. I have had people show up with 22s and and they qual'd with a Glock 17. eta I do think DPS will accept 327. As laws says 32 cailber, they will say 318 caliber rounded to two digits is 32 caliber and you will be GTG. |
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Quoted: It was never 38 caliber. The original law was 9mm or 38 Special. One is a caliber and one is a cartridge. Then they went to 32 caliber. So it has been caliber only now for a long while. There was a bill to go to 22 caliber but it did not pass. As other said, non-issue if OP instructor still thinks 9mm is the rule. Quoted: Quoted: Yeah, it appears the legislature used nominal calibers here, not actual bullet diameters, because of the parallel construction of ".38 caliber" and ".32 caliber". It was never 38 caliber. The original law was 9mm or 38 Special. One is a caliber and one is a cartridge. Then they went to 32 caliber. So it has been caliber only now for a long while. There was a bill to go to 22 caliber but it did not pass. As other said, non-issue if OP instructor still thinks 9mm is the rule. It was in the 1995 SB60 you mentioned earlier. An applicant may not be certified unless the applicant demonstrates, at a minimum, the degree of proficiency that is required to effectively operate a 9-millimeter or .38-caliber handgun. http://www.legis.state.tx.us/billlookup/History.aspx?LegSess=74R&Bill=SB60 .38 Special would not have meet the requirements if they wanted to consider the actual bullet diameter. |
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Do you guys really think the legislators even have a clue as to what you are even arguing about??? Hell no?
You are way overthinking this. It's what is written on the box that matters. I suspect some of our legislators don't even have the ability or the stomach to read an evil box of ammo 
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It was in the 1995 SB60 you mentioned earlier. http://www.legis.state.tx.us/billlookup/History.aspx?LegSess=74R&Bill=SB60 .38 Special would not have meet the requirements if they wanted to consider the actual bullet diameter. Quoted:
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Yeah, it appears the legislature used nominal calibers here, not actual bullet diameters, because of the parallel construction of ".38 caliber" and ".32 caliber". It was never 38 caliber. The original law was 9mm or 38 Special. One is a caliber and one is a cartridge. Then they went to 32 caliber. So it has been caliber only now for a long while. There was a bill to go to 22 caliber but it did not pass. As other said, non-issue if OP instructor still thinks 9mm is the rule. It was in the 1995 SB60 you mentioned earlier. An applicant may not be certified unless the applicant demonstrates, at a minimum, the degree of proficiency that is required to effectively operate a 9-millimeter or .38-caliber handgun.
http://www.legis.state.tx.us/billlookup/History.aspx?LegSess=74R&Bill=SB60 .38 Special would not have meet the requirements if they wanted to consider the actual bullet diameter. Old age sucks I see TXI did not correct me for same error on page one so I am not the only one getting old.... |
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I emailed the shop asking the same question I posed in the opening. The person I corresponded with was the same who told my brother no 32 revolvers. Also they freely admitted that they didn't know about the law change years ago and would now allow the .32 revolver. Later I received an email from them saying that after more research they would not allow the .327 because it uses a .31" bullet. They also said the 32 acp which they absolutely knew was legal is also a .31" diameter bullet and could not figure out why 32 caliber cartridges use .31" diameter bullets because caliber is the diameter. I pointed out all 32 calibers I know of use .31" bullets and that caliber vs bullet diameter is two different things. Just like the caliber 270 Winchester uses .277" diameter bullets. So the shop is good and confused now and said that they were going to email the DPS about all this and what ever the DPS decides is what they are going to do because they want to be within the law. I left them with this thought though, under the old law of .38 or larger did your shop give out CHL's to people that "qualified" with a .357 mag or 9mm revolver because those calibers use .355 and .357 diameter bullets and are well under your "interpretation" of the .38 caliber minimum as it was written in the law? Quoted:
I emailed the shop asking the same question I posed in the opening. The person I corresponded with was the same who told my brother no 32 revolvers. Also they freely admitted that they didn't know about the law change years ago and would now allow the .32 revolver. Later I received an email from them saying that after more research they would not allow the .327 because it uses a .31" bullet. They also said the 32 acp which they absolutely knew was legal is also a .31" diameter bullet and could not figure out why 32 caliber cartridges use .31" diameter bullets because caliber is the diameter. I pointed out all 32 calibers I know of use .31" bullets and that caliber vs bullet diameter is two different things. Just like the caliber 270 Winchester uses .277" diameter bullets. So the shop is good and confused now and said that they were going to email the DPS about all this and what ever the DPS decides is what they are going to do because they want to be within the law. I left them with this thought though, under the old law of .38 or larger did your shop give out CHL's to people that "qualified" with a .357 mag or 9mm revolver because those calibers use .355 and .357 diameter bullets and are well under your "interpretation" of the .38 caliber minimum as it was written in the law? I was asked to post this on behalf one of our CHL instructors before this gets blown out of proportion. This is a copy of the email correspondence Hello my brother just informed me that his wife was told that she cannot take the CHL class that they have already booked with your business because she shoots a .32 revolver. I told them the law states .32 or above but my brother told me your staff informed him that its a minimum .32 for an auto, and .38 spl for a revolver. I went and looked at the DPS's "Texas License to Carry a Handgun Laws 2015-2016", on page 19, ss 411.188, it states "An applicant must be able to demonstrate, at a minimum, the degree of proficiency that is required to effectively operate a handgun of .32 caliber or above". I do not see auto or revolver listed with different caliber qualifications. So my question is this, is your business going to deny her of her CHL if she shows up to qualify with a .32 caliber revolver? Thank You, easttexas -------------------------------------------------------- I am the one who spoke to your brother, and was forwarded this email. Upon further research on our end, I was unaware that in 2013 when they changed the rulings on revolver/semi-auto qualifications they also dropped the revolver minimum down to 32 from 38. It was an over site on our part, in fact many instructors still list the 38 caliber specifications in their requirements. So, no it is not our business to deny anyone her CHL. She can take her test with her 327 Ruger SP101 and either shoot the 327 federal in it or the 32 H&R magnum in it, provided the ammunition she uses is factory, non-reloads, and jacketed or semi-jacketed. But, Just to be 100% sure, I will forward the question of the 327 revolver to DPS legal and get an answer from them about the 3 different caliber options for that revolver. Since the 32 H&R and the 327 are actually smaller than .32 in diameter. 32 auto is a for sure, and I believe your gun will also shoot that, but before I can sign off on the range qualification I need to make sure DPS approves those cartridges. Your spouse will be the first 32 revolver we will have had take the shooting portion of the test since the law change two years ago, no one has asked up until now. I'll let you know on DPS' response once they get back to me. -------------------------------------------------------- Thank you, and I will also add that 32acp, 32s&w, 32s&w long, 32h&r mag and 327 mag all use .31" bullets. So if the 32 acp is legal it uses a .31" diameter bullet. Now in the law it states 32 caliber which is the cartridge designation and not the actual bullet diameter otherwise it would be listed as 0.32" with a plus or minus measuring tolerance, instead of just .32 caliber, and I believe I have read in the past DPS says its what is written on the box and not actual diameter. Lastly if you go by the old revolver statute of .38 or larger, then would not the .357 mag and 9mm revolvers be under the minimum of said requirement due to .355" and .356-7" diameter bullets? Thank You, Like, I said in my last email. I will confirm with Dps, and whatever they email me back is what we will do. I will let you know, and ---, once they respond. As per the email, we have contacted DPS for clarification and will let you know as soon as we hear back. |