Posted: 7/5/2014 9:42:00 AM EDT
| Ive seen people comment in the open carry topics that they prefer to conceal carry to "keep the bad guys guessin if there armed" my question is do they honestly think the bad guys give it a second thought rather than just assume yall arent packin since they dont see a gun |
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Say you are a bad guy approaching a group of 10 good guys. 9 have concealed weapons, while 1 is openly carrying. Which good guy will the bad guy shoot first??? None of them, the bad guy will see the one guy open carrying and move on towards an easier set of targets. |
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None of them, the bad guy will see the one guy open carrying and move on towards an easier set of targets. Quoted:
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Say you are a bad guy approaching a group of 10 good guys. 9 have concealed weapons, while 1 is openly carrying. Which good guy will the bad guy shoot first??? None of them, the bad guy will see the one guy open carrying and move on towards an easier set of targets. Guy asked a question, I simply answered as to the logic that many hold. Didn't mean to start an OC pissing match. Geeeeezzzzzz! |
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Guy asked a question, I simply answered as to the logic that many hold. Didn't mean to start an OC pissing match. Geeeeezzzzzz! Quoted:
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Say you are a bad guy approaching a group of 10 good guys. 9 have concealed weapons, while 1 is openly carrying. Which good guy will the bad guy shoot first??? None of them, the bad guy will see the one guy open carrying and move on towards an easier set of targets. Guy asked a question, I simply answered as to the logic that many hold. Didn't mean to start an OC pissing match. Geeeeezzzzzz! It's not an OC pissing match, it is basic logic. What makes you think a predator is going to willingly target prey that will fight back? Look at how other predators in the wild operate. Do lions attack the largest, strongest, fastest gazelles? Nope. They target the old, the young, the weak. Just like how a mugger, or rapist, or homicidal psycho will attack the weak, easy targets. Consider that almost all of the mass shootings in the last century have been in gun free zones, where everyone is a weak target since they can't pull out their own equalizer. The logic of "zomg concealed carry is tactically more sound because of element of surprise DERP HERP" is bullshit. |
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It's not an OC pissing match, it is basic logic. What makes you think a predator is going to willingly target prey that will fight back? Look at how other predators in the wild operate. Do lions attack the largest, strongest, fastest gazelles? Nope. They target the old, the young, the weak. Just like how a mugger, or rapist, or homicidal psycho will attack the weak, easy targets. Consider that almost all of the mass shootings in the last century have been in gun free zones, where everyone is a weak target since they can't pull out their own equalizer. The logic of "zomg concealed carry is tactically more sound because of element of surprise DERP HERP" is bullshit. Quoted:
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Say you are a bad guy approaching a group of 10 good guys. 9 have concealed weapons, while 1 is openly carrying. Which good guy will the bad guy shoot first??? None of them, the bad guy will see the one guy open carrying and move on towards an easier set of targets. Guy asked a question, I simply answered as to the logic that many hold. Didn't mean to start an OC pissing match. Geeeeezzzzzz! It's not an OC pissing match, it is basic logic. What makes you think a predator is going to willingly target prey that will fight back? Look at how other predators in the wild operate. Do lions attack the largest, strongest, fastest gazelles? Nope. They target the old, the young, the weak. Just like how a mugger, or rapist, or homicidal psycho will attack the weak, easy targets. Consider that almost all of the mass shootings in the last century have been in gun free zones, where everyone is a weak target since they can't pull out their own equalizer. The logic of "zomg concealed carry is tactically more sound because of element of surprise DERP HERP" is bullshit. Go on an argue that water isn't wet! I'm done! Geeeezzzzz |
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People who think OC'ers would be safe by the sight of their gun quickly forgot about the two cops executed in uniform, guns on their hips at a Cicis in Vegas.
May as well buy a t-shirt with a target on it. Yep, I'm a freedom hating communist loving gun banner because I don't want to OC. |
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People who think OC'ers would be safe by the sight of their gun quickly forgot about the two cops executed in uniform, guns on their hips at a Cicis in Vegas. May as well buy a t-shirt with a target on it. Yep, I'm a freedom hating communist loving gun banner because I don't want to OC. Not to argue for oc but im shure those officers were targeted because of the uniform not the gun show me a similar case where the victims wernt in uniform and ill believe it was because of thier guns |
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Quoted: Ive seen people comment in the open carry topics that they prefer to conceal carry to "keep the bad guys guessin if there armed" my question is do they honestly think the bad guys give it a second thought rather than just assume yall arent packin since they dont see a gun Domestic disputes don't just happen at home or in a vacuum. The last high profile DD I remember off hand was the Tyler court house shooting. Just food for thought.
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Even cops carry concealed while off-duty for a reason. I believe that someone would target the obvious threat. I am not against OC but if passed I will continue to carry concealed. The argument that a criminal would see a weapon and turn around assumes that he uses logic. If he did that he wouldn't be a criminal. They only see what they want and are willing to roll over anyone in their way to get it. Plus even open carrying doesn't mean you would be prepared. If someone sees your weapon and decides to shoot you first he will be prepared, but unless he has a weapon in view you won't know it's coming. Concealed doen't mean that you will be safer, but I like the odds better if nobody knows I am armed. |
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Guy asked a question, I simply answered as to the logic that many hold. Didn't mean to start an OC pissing match. Geeeeezzzzzz! Quoted:
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Say you are a bad guy approaching a group of 10 good guys. 9 have concealed weapons, while 1 is openly carrying. Which good guy will the bad guy shoot first??? None of them, the bad guy will see the one guy open carrying and move on towards an easier set of targets. Guy asked a question, I simply answered as to the logic that many hold. Didn't mean to start an OC pissing match. Geeeeezzzzzz! No... its just basic common sense... bad guys are usually that because they are lazy cowards. They aren't looking for a fight, they want easy pickings. They sure don't want a target that is going to shoot back at them, even if they think they might get the drop on them. |
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People who think OC'ers would be safe by the sight of their gun quickly forgot about the two cops executed in uniform, guns on their hips at a Cicis in Vegas. May as well buy a t-shirt with a target on it. Yep, I'm a freedom hating communist loving gun banner because I don't want to OC. That's one case, and a highly unusual one. In general bad guys go out of their way not to do anything if they know cops are around. Those two were specifically gone after because they were cops. Chances are if they hadn't been in uniform but were just two guys OCing, they wouldn't have been a target. And no, I'm not saying there is anything wrong with you because you don't want to OC... I'm just saying that your arguments don't make a whole lot of sense in the real world most of the time. |
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I would rather conceal than open carry, not paranoid either way just my preference, personally I'd consider someone trying to do a grab and run on my pistol a bigger danger than being shot just because I'm open carrying. It would take some cajones to do a grab and run on someone OCing, how many don't carry a backup? When I'm CHLing, I am normally carrying at least two unless i'm wearing clothes that don't permit it. |
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Even cops carry concealed while off-duty for a reason. I believe that someone would target the obvious threat. I am not against OC but if passed I will continue to carry concealed. The argument that a criminal would see a weapon and turn around assumes that he uses logic. If he did that he wouldn't be a criminal. They only see what they want and are willing to roll over anyone in their way to get it. Quoted:
Even cops carry concealed while off-duty for a reason. I believe that someone would target the obvious threat. I am not against OC but if passed I will continue to carry concealed. The argument that a criminal would see a weapon and turn around assumes that he uses logic. If he did that he wouldn't be a criminal. They only see what they want and are willing to roll over anyone in their way to get it. Criminals are dumb, but they aren't usually THAT dumb. Few of them have the balls to go in intentionally shooting. For one thing, they usually don't want to attract any more attention than necessary because they want to be able to make a getaway... Plus even open carrying doesn't mean you would be prepared. If someone sees your weapon and decides to shoot you first he will be prepared, but unless he has a weapon in view you won't know it's coming. Concealed doen't mean that you will be safer, but I like the odds better if nobody knows I am armed. O.K., here's the deal... If you are right that OCers are going to be less prepared and more likely to have a bad guy who is carrying concealed get the drop on them... then it should be that a lot more cops get shot than bad guys... But its usually the other way around. Most of the time when there is a shooting situation between bad guys and cops, the bad guys are the ones that end up dead. And no, I'm not an OCT person... nor do I approve of all their tactics... and I've been on record here saying I'd probably still carry concealed most if not virtually all of the time... it is just that some of these arguments against OC are just way out there... |
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I OC my handgun all the time in shitty ass neighborhoods. I frequently encounter people who are found by the police to have weapons or drugs or both on them.
The overblown drama is just that. Most of the speculation and what-if's are from people that had maybe one potentially violent encounter in their life. It's just a fucking gun, and I 'm on record here saying that. |
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On a scale of 1 to 10 derps, your conclusion gets a solid 9.  Quoted:
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The logic of "zomg concealed carry is tactically more sound because of element of surprise DERP HERP" is bullshit. On a scale of 1 to 10 derps, your conclusion gets a solid 9. Yeah... I wouldn't go that far either... while I think there is SOME merit to carrying concealed due to some element of surprise, I also wouldn't be shaking in my boots OCing out of fear that it would make me a huge irresistible target for that one crazy bad guy out of a million who is insane enough to intentionally go after someone they know is armed rather than intentionally trying to pick the easiest and safest target they can find. I mean there are other states where OC of handguns is legal, and I just haven't heard of huge bands of roving thugs running around seeking them out to try to rob them. If any of these concerns were real I'd expect to hear about how big of a problem this was from my friends in places like AZ... But when I have asked them about some of the doom and gloom for OCers stories I've heard since people started talking about it around here they just look at me like WTF? and they are like "Dude, it just isn't that big a deal". |
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If you are right that OCers are going to be less prepared and more likely to have a bad guy who is carrying concealed get the drop on them... then it should be that a lot more cops get shot than bad guys... But its usually the other way around. Most of the time when there is a shooting situation between bad guys and cops, the bad guys are the ones that end up dead. Cops versus bad guys in shooting is likely more about training and muscle memory than anything. Even the laziest cop who doesn't shoot aside from qualifications has considerably more training than Hector Homey who's still cocking his gun sideways to shoot. The video a couple days ago of that Brazilian cop pulling on a thief who had his gun already out is a nice demo of that. I'm all for legalization of OC and anything that increases gun rights and rights in general - but some of the arguments for the tactical advantages are lol-worthy. |
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On a scale of 1 to 10 derps, your conclusion gets a solid 9.
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On a scale of 1 to 10 derps, your conclusion gets a solid 9.
Mind enumerating that a bit more, rather than making a herp derp personal attack? Quoted:
Yeah... I wouldn't go that far either... while I think there is SOME merit to carrying concealed due to some element of surprise I see you go into an area where no one will witness. I don't see a weapon. I put a gun in your face and demand your wallet. But you still have the element of surprise! Wait, no, shit, you don't. Because you lost the initiative. Element of surprise goes to the attacker. If you're using the element of surprise, you're the aggressor in an altercation. You are not defending yourself, you are initiating an attack and are a criminal. If you are responding to a situation, no matter what it is, you have LOST the element of surprise. Massad Ayoob and others go into this in a lot of detail. |
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Quoted: I would rather conceal than open carry, not paranoid either way just my preference, personally I'd consider someone trying to do a grab and run on my pistol a bigger danger than being shot just because I'm open carrying. My off-hand knife would get to their throat before they got my gun out of the holster. |
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Cops versus bad guys in shooting is likely more about training and muscle memory than anything. Even the laziest cop who doesn't shoot aside from qualifications has considerably more training than Hector Homey who's still cocking his gun sideways to shoot. The video a couple days ago of that Brazilian cop pulling on a thief who had his gun already out is a nice demo of that. I'm all for legalization of OC and anything that increases gun rights and rights in general - but some of the arguments for the tactical advantages are lol-worthy. Quoted:
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If you are right that OCers are going to be less prepared and more likely to have a bad guy who is carrying concealed get the drop on them... then it should be that a lot more cops get shot than bad guys... But its usually the other way around. Most of the time when there is a shooting situation between bad guys and cops, the bad guys are the ones that end up dead. Cops versus bad guys in shooting is likely more about training and muscle memory than anything. Even the laziest cop who doesn't shoot aside from qualifications has considerably more training than Hector Homey who's still cocking his gun sideways to shoot. The video a couple days ago of that Brazilian cop pulling on a thief who had his gun already out is a nice demo of that. I'm all for legalization of OC and anything that increases gun rights and rights in general - but some of the arguments for the tactical advantages are lol-worthy. You really must not know many cops. Most only shoot once or twice a year as they struggle to qualify. Even if the officers get 30-40 hours training shooting a handgun is a VERY perishable skill. Police need to shoot at least once a month in preferably some sort of action pistol competition just to keep their basic skill level up. What also happens if you let your guard down, had a police friend in Cali get shot and killed by an illegal gang banger because he let his guard down talking to a group of teens playing music too loud. He never got his gun out of his holster. |
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Mind enumerating that a bit more, rather than making a herp derp personal attack? I see you go into an area where no one will witness. I don't see a weapon. I put a gun in your face and demand your wallet. But you still have the element of surprise! Wait, no, shit, you don't. Because you lost the initiative. Element of surprise goes to the attacker. If you're using the element of surprise, you're the aggressor in an altercation. You are not defending yourself, you are initiating an attack and are a criminal. If you are responding to a situation, no matter what it is, you have LOST the element of surprise. Massad Ayoob and others go into this in a lot of detail. Quoted:
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On a scale of 1 to 10 derps, your conclusion gets a solid 9.
Mind enumerating that a bit more, rather than making a herp derp personal attack? Quoted:
Yeah... I wouldn't go that far either... while I think there is SOME merit to carrying concealed due to some element of surprise I see you go into an area where no one will witness. I don't see a weapon. I put a gun in your face and demand your wallet. But you still have the element of surprise! Wait, no, shit, you don't. Because you lost the initiative. Element of surprise goes to the attacker. If you're using the element of surprise, you're the aggressor in an altercation. You are not defending yourself, you are initiating an attack and are a criminal. If you are responding to a situation, no matter what it is, you have LOST the element of surprise. Massad Ayoob and others go into this in a lot of detail. I've been telling them this quite literally for years. It doesn't fit their X-Box world view, so they discard it in deference to their virtual reality. |
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Not to argue for oc but im shure those officers were targeted because of the uniform not the gun show me a similar case where the victims wernt in uniform and ill believe it was because of thier guns Quoted:
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People who think OC'ers would be safe by the sight of their gun quickly forgot about the two cops executed in uniform, guns on their hips at a Cicis in Vegas. May as well buy a t-shirt with a target on it. Yep, I'm a freedom hating communist loving gun banner because I don't want to OC. Not to argue for oc but im shure those officers were targeted because of the uniform not the gun show me a similar case where the victims wernt in uniform and ill believe it was because of thier guns It is not a matter of it it was because of the gun or not, it happened DESPITE the gun. Those that vehemently desire to open carry use the non proven argument that the visible presence of a gun deters crime. Those the disagree with open carry use the non proven argument that the visible presence of a gun makes one a target. Each side alleges only an idiot cannot see their argument is the only valid one. That weakens each argument. As a former police officer and dealing with criminals on a day to day basis for a decade, I have a little insight as to their thinking. I know how I will carry. The people at ar15 know everything more than ereryone else, even about topics they have zero experience or training. No one will convince anyone here, and these threads are just mental masturbation. |
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It would take some cajones to do a grab and run on someone OCing, how many don't carry a backup? When I'm CHLing, I am normally carrying at least two unless i'm wearing clothes that don't permit it. Quoted:
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I would rather conceal than open carry, not paranoid either way just my preference, personally I'd consider someone trying to do a grab and run on my pistol a bigger danger than being shot just because I'm open carrying. It would take some cajones to do a grab and run on someone OCing, how many don't carry a backup? When I'm CHLing, I am normally carrying at least two unless i'm wearing clothes that don't permit it. Few people carry one gun, much less two. |
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My off-hand knife would get to their throat before they got my gun out of the holster. Quoted:
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I would rather conceal than open carry, not paranoid either way just my preference, personally I'd consider someone trying to do a grab and run on my pistol a bigger danger than being shot just because I'm open carrying. My off-hand knife would get to their throat before they got my gun out of the holster. 
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Not to argue for oc but im shure those officers were targeted because of the uniform not the gun show me a similar case where the victims wernt in uniform and ill believe it was because of thier guns Quoted:
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People who think OC'ers would be safe by the sight of their gun quickly forgot about the two cops executed in uniform, guns on their hips at a Cicis in Vegas. May as well buy a t-shirt with a target on it. Yep, I'm a freedom hating communist loving gun banner because I don't want to OC. Not to argue for oc but im shure those officers were targeted because of the uniform not the gun show me a similar case where the victims wernt in uniform and ill believe it was because of thier guns Walmart same day. They only shot the guy who openly had a gun. |
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Does it really matter what anyone thinks or how tactical the decision to OC is? Y'all heard of this little thing called Personal Liberty? Stop acting like Liberals before you get stuck that way forever. "Acting like" 
That's rich! 
The first machinegun I ever fired was a converted AR-15 in M4 configuration. The owner had a John Kerry for President bumper sticker 
Some people here ARE liberals. 
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Walmart same day. They only shot the guy who openly had a gun. Quoted:
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People who think OC'ers would be safe by the sight of their gun quickly forgot about the two cops executed in uniform, guns on their hips at a Cicis in Vegas. May as well buy a t-shirt with a target on it. Yep, I'm a freedom hating communist loving gun banner because I don't want to OC. Not to argue for oc but im shure those officers were targeted because of the uniform not the gun show me a similar case where the victims wernt in uniform and ill believe it was because of thier guns Walmart same day. They only shot the guy who openly had a gun. Where has it been written that the guy was OC and was shot just standing there minding his own business? Cops were targeted because they were cops. They had set out to kill cops and those two were sitting ducks while eating. Guy that got shot in the Wal-Mart across the parking lot had removed his concealed carry gun after the male perp with a gun had fired a shot into the air. He made the mistake of thinking that bad guy was the only one. He didn't know there was a 2nd perp (bad guys girlfriend). She walked up from the side/behind and shot him after seeing him with his gun drawn. He didn't get shot because he was OC, he got shot because he had his weapon drawn and was moving towards the bad guy without being fully aware of the surroundings/situation. |
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Where has it been written that the guy was OC and was shot just standing there minding his own business? Cops were targeted because they were cops. They had set out to kill cops and those two were sitting ducks while eating. Guy that got shot in the Wal-Mart across the parking lot had removed his concealed carry gun after the male perp with a gun had fired a shot into the air. He made the mistake of thinking that bad guy was the only one. He didn't know there was a 2nd perp (bad guys girlfriend). She walked up from the side/behind and shot him after seeing him with his gun drawn. He didn't get shot because he was OC, he got shot because he had his weapon drawn and was moving towards the bad guy without being fully aware of the surroundings/situation. Quoted:
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People who think OC'ers would be safe by the sight of their gun quickly forgot about the two cops executed in uniform, guns on their hips at a Cicis in Vegas. May as well buy a t-shirt with a target on it. Yep, I'm a freedom hating communist loving gun banner because I don't want to OC. Not to argue for oc but im shure those officers were targeted because of the uniform not the gun show me a similar case where the victims wernt in uniform and ill believe it was because of thier guns Walmart same day. They only shot the guy who openly had a gun. Where has it been written that the guy was OC and was shot just standing there minding his own business? Cops were targeted because they were cops. They had set out to kill cops and those two were sitting ducks while eating. Guy that got shot in the Wal-Mart across the parking lot had removed his concealed carry gun after the male perp with a gun had fired a shot into the air. He made the mistake of thinking that bad guy was the only one. He didn't know there was a 2nd perp (bad guys girlfriend). She walked up from the side/behind and shot him after seeing him with his gun drawn. He didn't get shot because he was OC, he got shot because he had his weapon drawn and was moving towards the bad guy without being fully aware of the surroundings/situation. I can't fault the guy who was shot in the Wal-Mart too much, how many active shooter incidents had a second shooter, and a woman at that? He probably assumed she was another random bystander, I probably would have and I suspect most of the folks here would have thought the same. |
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I can't fault the guy who was shot in the Wal-Mart too much, how many active shooter incidents had a second shooter, and a woman at that? He probably assumed she was another random bystander, I probably would have and I suspect most of the folks here would have thought the same. I wasn't faulting the guy and I agree, most people would not have been looking for secondary shooters if they had even reacted at all. I was just pointing out the guy wasn't singled out and shot because he was OC. |
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None of them, the bad guy will see the one guy open carrying and move on towards an easier set of targets. Quoted:
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Say you are a bad guy approaching a group of 10 good guys. 9 have concealed weapons, while 1 is openly carrying. Which good guy will the bad guy shoot first??? None of them, the bad guy will see the one guy open carrying and move on towards an easier set of targets. Four armed police officers in a coffee shop. Who the hell would start a gunfight in a shop like that? Never mind, it happened: Four veteran police officers lost their lives in the Lakewood, WA shooting after being targeted by a single assailant. Sgt. Mark Renninger, the shift supervisor, was the first to enter the shop. He bought a coffee, turned around, and walked over to a spot near the center of the wall to his right, where he pulled two small tables together and sat down. Renninger, 39, was a 13-year veteran, SWAT team leader, well-respected SWAT instructor, husband and father of three. Officer Tina Griswold, who’d been slightly injured in the early-morning fight, was the second officer to come in and make a purchase. She was a youthful-looking 40-year-old with 14 years on the job. She’d served on SWAT with a former department and was married with two children. The next officer to come to the table was Officer Ronnie Owens. Big, strong, and athletic, he was 39 with 12 years experience, as well as the father of one daughter. Officer Greg Richards, a 42-year-old, eight-year veteran and married father of three, was the last to enter the store. Like the others, he was personable, dedicated and well trained. Experience, training, and being armed - unfortunately none of these things saved them. How well do you think the average out of shape, out of practice Arfcommer would fare? Source: http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-legacy-lakewood At approximately 8:15 AM (UTC-8), Clemmons entered the coffee shop, approached the counter, turned around, and opened fire on the four seated officers with a Glock 17 9mm semi-automatic handgun. He also carried a Smith & Wesson .38-caliber revolver. Sergeant Mark Renniger and Officer Tina Griswold were killed as they sat in their chairs, both shot in the head. Officer Ronald Owens was shot in the neck as he stood up and attempted to draw his weapon. Officer Greg Richards managed to fight back against Clemmons and fired his own weapon, hitting Clemmons in the abdomen, before succumbing to a shot to the head. Clemmons then stole Richards's Glock before fleeing the scene. From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakewood,_Washington_police_officer_shooting Granted, this was a targeted killing. But the point is that ONE assailant was able to kill four armed officers in no time flat because he had the initiative and wasn't dissuaded by the presence of multiple firearms. Open carry and concealed carry have tradeoffs. Open carry means you have a faster draw and a possible deterrent effect. However, you give up the element of surprise and possibly become a priority target for a violent criminal. Concealed carry has a slower draw time and little deterrent effect (unless a high % of the local population concealed carries). However, you blend in with everybody else and in the event you need to use your piece, may be able to gain the upper hand through the element of surprise. Personally I think both should be legal and you should have the freedom to choose whatever method best fits your needs. But each method has its benefits and drawbacks, and you should recognize that when dealing with hardened criminals (or worse, a mentally ill person or persons bent on perpetrating mass murder), they may not respond to the presence of a gun the way you think they might. |
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Few people carry one gun, much less two. Quoted:
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I would rather conceal than open carry, not paranoid either way just my preference, personally I'd consider someone trying to do a grab and run on my pistol a bigger danger than being shot just because I'm open carrying. It would take some cajones to do a grab and run on someone OCing, how many don't carry a backup? When I'm CHLing, I am normally carrying at least two unless i'm wearing clothes that don't permit it. Few people carry one gun, much less two. Even fewer OC... how many people who OC carry a concealed backup? |
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Granted, this was a targeted killing. But the point is that ONE assailant was able to kill four armed officers in no time flat because he had the initiative and wasn't dissuaded by the presence of multiple firearms. Quoted:
Granted, this was a targeted killing. But the point is that ONE assailant was able to kill four armed officers in no time flat because he had the initiative and wasn't dissuaded by the presence of multiple firearms. Yes, this happened, but its extremely rare. You can't predict crazy, and you can't live your life worrying about the 1 in a million situations. I have to believe that most of the time things don't go down like in that case. I also think that it would now be harder for someone to pull off something like that because now more people are going to be looking for it... just like I think it is less likely anyone could hijack an airliner with a box cutter these days. Open carry and concealed carry have tradeoffs. This is true... And I'd even go so far as to say as I have all along that while I'd like OC to be legal, I'd still probably carry concealed most of the time, if not virtually always. Open carry means you have a faster draw and a possible deterrent effect. However, you give up the element of surprise and possibly become a priority target for a violent criminal.
Concealed carry has a slower draw time and little deterrent effect (unless a high % of the local population concealed carries). However, you blend in with everybody else and in the event you need to use your piece, may be able to gain the upper hand through the element of surprise. Personally I think both should be legal and you should have the freedom to choose whatever method best fits your needs. But each method has its benefits and drawbacks, and you should recognize that when dealing with hardened criminals (or worse, a mentally ill person or persons bent on perpetrating mass murder), they may not respond to the presence of a gun the way you think they might. I completely agree. The times I'd probably choose to open carry would only be when I knew I was going into a potentially more dangerous than average place like when I occasionally drive through east Austin. And in that case by "open carry" I would most likely keep it on the seat next to me or in the door pocket rather than in the console (as now you have to keep it out of plain sight in the car). |
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It is not a matter of it it was because of the gun or not, it happened DESPITE the gun. Those that vehemently desire to open carry use the non proven argument that the visible presence of a gun deters crime. Those the disagree with open carry use the non proven argument that the visible presence of a gun makes one a target. Each side alleges only an idiot cannot see their argument is the only valid one. That weakens each argument. As a former police officer and dealing with criminals on a day to day basis for a decade, I have a little insight as to their thinking. I know how I will carry. The people at ar15 know everything more than ereryone else, even about topics they have zero experience or training. No one will convince anyone here, and these threads are just mental masturbation. Quoted:
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People who think OC'ers would be safe by the sight of their gun quickly forgot about the two cops executed in uniform, guns on their hips at a Cicis in Vegas. May as well buy a t-shirt with a target on it. Yep, I'm a freedom hating communist loving gun banner because I don't want to OC. Not to argue for oc but im shure those officers were targeted because of the uniform not the gun show me a similar case where the victims wernt in uniform and ill believe it was because of thier guns It is not a matter of it it was because of the gun or not, it happened DESPITE the gun. Those that vehemently desire to open carry use the non proven argument that the visible presence of a gun deters crime. Those the disagree with open carry use the non proven argument that the visible presence of a gun makes one a target. Each side alleges only an idiot cannot see their argument is the only valid one. That weakens each argument. As a former police officer and dealing with criminals on a day to day basis for a decade, I have a little insight as to their thinking. I know how I will carry. The people at ar15 know everything more than ereryone else, even about topics they have zero experience or training. No one will convince anyone here, and these threads are just mental masturbation. Back when I was a cop, when I carried off duty I always made damn sure it was concealed. I did not want anyone to know I was armed. I never had to draw off-duty so it was just theory, but it was a theory that made the most sense to me. The people who argue for open carry also have a theory, but for me at least it just doesn't make sense. I haven't read any studies about either or both ways but that would be interesting to hear about. I know Arizona has open carry-and concealed carry, I think. It would be interesting to see how those work for them. It would also be interesting to see if that translates to Texas where open carry hasn't been the usual. The two cultures may just be too different. Hell, people here still get upset about concealed carry, and the OCT groups have proven that the average citizen will panic when they see someone carrying a weapon. I may become more acceptable once there is less of an "in your face" aspect to it and people see someone armed just going about their business. |
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Say you are a bad guy approaching a group of 10 good guys. 9 have concealed weapons, while 1 is openly carrying. Which good guy will the bad guy shoot first??? Quoted:
I think most folks would be well served to revise their definition of what a "bad guy" is. Someone who is thinking clearly but just wants a quick buck, likely will move on. Someone who is not right emotionally or chemically imbalanced may not be there for money and likely just wont care. Quoted:
Even cops carry concealed while off-duty for a reason. I believe that someone would target the obvious threat. I am not against OC but if passed I will continue to carry concealed. The argument that a criminal would see a weapon and turn around assumes that he uses logic. If he did that he wouldn't be a criminal. They only see what they want and are willing to roll over anyone in their way to get it. Plus even open carrying doesn't mean you would be prepared. If someone sees your weapon and decides to shoot you first he will be prepared, but unless he has a weapon in view you won't know it's coming. Concealed doen't mean that you will be safer, but I like the odds better if nobody knows I am armed. Besides all that, consider the fact that I am faster to draw from concealment than you are from the hip. Don't believe me? Put your hand in your pocket and "draw" your hand as though to shoot. Now try the same from the hip. Why am I faster? Because I already had a full firing grip on my pistol before there was ever any danger, and nobody was the wiser. You can't do that with open carry unless you wanna go around looking like Clint Eastwood's retarded nephew getting ready for the big showdown at high noon. |
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... Because I already had a full firing grip on my pistol before there was ever any danger, and nobody was the wiser. You can't do that with open carry unless you wanna go around looking like Clint Eastwood's retarded nephew getting ready for the big showdown at high noon. And a person doesn't look funny with their hand down their pants?
Depends on the kind of concealed rig you are using... Some are faster to draw from than others. |
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Besides all that, consider the fact that I am faster to draw from concealment than you are from the hip. Don't believe me? Put your hand in your pocket and "draw" your hand as though to shoot. Now try the same from the hip. Why am I faster? Because I already had a full firing grip on my pistol before there was ever any danger, and nobody was the wiser. You can't do that with open carry unless you wanna go around looking like Clint Eastwood's retarded nephew getting ready for the big showdown at high noon. Quoted:
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Say you are a bad guy approaching a group of 10 good guys. 9 have concealed weapons, while 1 is openly carrying. Which good guy will the bad guy shoot first??? Quoted:
I think most folks would be well served to revise their definition of what a "bad guy" is. Someone who is thinking clearly but just wants a quick buck, likely will move on. Someone who is not right emotionally or chemically imbalanced may not be there for money and likely just wont care. Quoted:
Even cops carry concealed while off-duty for a reason. I believe that someone would target the obvious threat. I am not against OC but if passed I will continue to carry concealed. The argument that a criminal would see a weapon and turn around assumes that he uses logic. If he did that he wouldn't be a criminal. They only see what they want and are willing to roll over anyone in their way to get it. Plus even open carrying doesn't mean you would be prepared. If someone sees your weapon and decides to shoot you first he will be prepared, but unless he has a weapon in view you won't know it's coming. Concealed doen't mean that you will be safer, but I like the odds better if nobody knows I am armed. Besides all that, consider the fact that I am faster to draw from concealment than you are from the hip. Don't believe me? Put your hand in your pocket and "draw" your hand as though to shoot. Now try the same from the hip. Why am I faster? Because I already had a full firing grip on my pistol before there was ever any danger, and nobody was the wiser. You can't do that with open carry unless you wanna go around looking like Clint Eastwood's retarded nephew getting ready for the big showdown at high noon. More "stop liking what I don't like" drivel. I open carry every day in a Level 3 retention holster. If I am paying attention, I'll be fast enough on the draw. Oh, and I flat out don't give a fuck what people think I look like. Is my conduct lawful? THAT is what I care about. |
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More "stop liking what I don't like" drivel. I open carry every day in a Level 3 retention holster. If I am paying attention, I'll be fast enough on the draw. Oh, and I flat out don't give a fuck what people think I look like. Is my conduct lawful? THAT is what I care about. Quoted:
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Say you are a bad guy approaching a group of 10 good guys. 9 have concealed weapons, while 1 is openly carrying. Which good guy will the bad guy shoot first??? Quoted:
I think most folks would be well served to revise their definition of what a "bad guy" is. Someone who is thinking clearly but just wants a quick buck, likely will move on. Someone who is not right emotionally or chemically imbalanced may not be there for money and likely just wont care. Quoted:
Even cops carry concealed while off-duty for a reason. I believe that someone would target the obvious threat. I am not against OC but if passed I will continue to carry concealed. The argument that a criminal would see a weapon and turn around assumes that he uses logic. If he did that he wouldn't be a criminal. They only see what they want and are willing to roll over anyone in their way to get it. Plus even open carrying doesn't mean you would be prepared. If someone sees your weapon and decides to shoot you first he will be prepared, but unless he has a weapon in view you won't know it's coming. Concealed doen't mean that you will be safer, but I like the odds better if nobody knows I am armed. Besides all that, consider the fact that I am faster to draw from concealment than you are from the hip. Don't believe me? Put your hand in your pocket and "draw" your hand as though to shoot. Now try the same from the hip. Why am I faster? Because I already had a full firing grip on my pistol before there was ever any danger, and nobody was the wiser. You can't do that with open carry unless you wanna go around looking like Clint Eastwood's retarded nephew getting ready for the big showdown at high noon. More "stop liking what I don't like" drivel. I open carry every day in a Level 3 retention holster. If I am paying attention, I'll be fast enough on the draw. Oh, and I flat out don't give a fuck what people think I look like. Is my conduct lawful? THAT is what I care about. If you are open carrying in public in Texas you are breaking the law. You can open carry on your own land and in a premises under your control- I think, and while hunting. Txinvestigater can answer that better than I can. I'm not as current on all the exceptions, etc. as he is. |
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And a person doesn't look funny with their hand down their pants?
Depends on the kind of concealed rig you are using... Some are faster to draw from than others. Quoted:
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... Because I already had a full firing grip on my pistol before there was ever any danger, and nobody was the wiser. You can't do that with open carry unless you wanna go around looking like Clint Eastwood's retarded nephew getting ready for the big showdown at high noon. And a person doesn't look funny with their hand down their pants?
Depends on the kind of concealed rig you are using... Some are faster to draw from than others. Nope. Pants have pockets for a reason. Lots of people keep their hands in their pockets when they don't have anything else to do with them. I always did, even before I owned guns. Doesn't matter what type of rig you're using, you're never going to be as fast as the guy who already has a firing grip on his gun. End of story. For further reading look up something called the OODA Loop. |
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More "stop liking what I don't like" drivel. I open carry every day in a Level 3 retention holster. If I am paying attention, I'll be fast enough on the draw. Miss the point much there Slick?
My comment about the way you would look has nothing to do with how a gun looks on the hip (though I do think that makes you look like a fucking douche) what I was trying to point out is that you would have to have your hand on your grip, and probably even have the gun partially removed from the holster since its a level 3 retention and all, just to have the same advantage as someone who has their hand on their gun in their pocket. |
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If you are open carrying in public in Texas you are breaking the law. You can open carry on your own land and in a premises under your control- I think, and while hunting. Txinvestigater can answer that better than I can. I'm not as current on all the exceptions, etc. as he is. PC 46.15
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Miss the point much there Slick?
My comment about the way you would look has nothing to do with how a gun looks on the hip (though I do think that makes you look like a fucking douche) what I was trying to point out is that you would have to have your hand on your grip, and probably even have the gun partially removed from the holster since its a level 3 retention and all, just to have the same advantage as someone who has their hand on their gun in their pocket. Quoted:
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More "stop liking what I don't like" drivel. I open carry every day in a Level 3 retention holster. If I am paying attention, I'll be fast enough on the draw. Miss the point much there Slick?
My comment about the way you would look has nothing to do with how a gun looks on the hip (though I do think that makes you look like a fucking douche) what I was trying to point out is that you would have to have your hand on your grip, and probably even have the gun partially removed from the holster since its a level 3 retention and all, just to have the same advantage as someone who has their hand on their gun in their pocket. The mere fact that you think wearing a gun makes a person look like a douche speaks to the heart of the matter. And now we know what kind of man you are, dude. |
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PC 46.15
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If you are open carrying in public in Texas you are breaking the law. You can open carry on your own land and in a premises under your control- I think, and while hunting. Txinvestigater can answer that better than I can. I'm not as current on all the exceptions, etc. as he is. PC 46.15
Thanks. I'm too hot tired and lazy to look crap up on my own today.
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