Posted: 7/12/2009 3:22:34 PM EDT
| Did the 51% alcohol sale thing change to any alcohol? I just went in a chipotle and they had a big 30.06 sticker on the door. They do sell beer but I have been there over 10 times and have never seen anyone drinking one so there is no way they get 51% from booze. Chime in if you know. |
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51% places are off limits because the Legislators decided we could not carry there and codified it.
30.06 signs are for private businesses. The state does not decide what is 30.06, each property owner decides. If they wish to ban the carry of a handgun under a CHL the property owner posts the sign. 51% is a government decision, 30.06 is not. |
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I thought the 30.06 carried legal weight much like if I carried into a bar and got caught. It does. However, bars are off limits to carry regardless of a sign being posted there or not. 30.06 is seperate, and if they pst a sign carry is not lawful there. |
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51 percent signs have big 51 in red in the background of the words.
I have not seen a 30.06 sign posted properly anywhere, not even the court house or hospitals. Technically it don't count unless it is posted properly. Most if not all resturants have the unlicensed firearms sign. When I first saw them, I thought they were the don't ccw here and got pissed, but after I read them more closely, I found they did not apply to me and ignore them now. |
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And what is "properly posted"?
51 percent signs have big 51 in red in the background of the words. I have not seen a 30.06 sign posted properly anywhere, not even the court house or hospitals. Technically it don't count unless it is posted properly. Most if not all resturants have the unlicensed firearms sign. Any that are not 51% are REQUIRED to post the sign. When I first saw them, I thought they were the don't ccw here and got pissed, but after I read them more closely, I found they did not apply to me and ignore them now.
It amazes me that either; a) CHL instructors don't cover this, or b) CHLers didn't pay attention. |
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Most if not all resturants have the unlicensed firearms sign. Any that are not 51% are REQUIRED to post the sign.
I think I understand, if not, please clarify. If the place sells alohol for on premise consumption and does not meet the minimum threshold to require a 51% sign , they must(are required) post the unlicensed carry sign? Thanks in advance mm |
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And what is "properly posted"?
51 percent signs have big 51 in red in the background of the words. I have not seen a 30.06 sign posted properly anywhere, not even the court house or hospitals. Technically it don't count unless it is posted properly. Most if not all resturants have the unlicensed firearms sign. Any that are not 51% are REQUIRED to post the sign. When I first saw them, I thought they were the don't ccw here and got pissed, but after I read them more closely, I found they did not apply to me and ignore them now.
It amazes me that either; a) CHL instructors don't cover this, or b) CHLers didn't pay attention. I'll pick b. What do I win? 
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Most if not all resturants have the unlicensed firearms sign. Any that are not 51% are REQUIRED to post the sign.
I think I understand, if not, please clarify. If the place sells alohol for on premise consumption and does not meet the minimum threshold to require a 51% sign , they must(are required) post the unlicensed carry sign? Thanks in advance mm Yep; and places that sell for off premise consumption must post the sign. |
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Any place that sells for off premise consumption, or on premise consumption less than 51% is required to post this sign; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/txinvestigator/CHL/unlicensedpossession.jpg Do these signs prevent one from carrying a rifle legally into the estableshment? I have often wondered the legality of open carry of a rifle into, say a walmart. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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And what is "properly posted"?51 percent signs have big 51 in red in the background of the words. I have not seen a 30.06 sign posted properly anywhere, not even the court house or hospitals. Technically it don't count unless it is posted properly. I think he is referring to places like many Taco Cabanas which have non-conforming 30.06 signs. In the case of the Taco Cabana near my house their sign is not posted conspicuously at every entrance or even at the main entrance. It is on a wall along the hallway to where you order. If someone else orders for you and you go directly to sit down you have 0% chance of ever seeing the sign. Even if you order, unless you look to your side as you head towards the register you are likely to miss it because it is to the side... plus it is posted on a bulletin board under glass with a bunch of other stuff so it would still be easy to miss. But the kicker? The sign itself is improper, since the lettering is about 1/2 the size required by law. Other places have similar problems with their signage... improper wording, too small a letters, missing the Espanol version, non-contrasting lettering, missing some entrances, etc. So, are those proper or improper? Does a CHLer have to worry about them? I personally recommend just avoiding those places because even if they aren't legally enforceable, their intent is obvious that either CHL holders are not welcome or they are craven weenies who are bowing to pressure to "make people safe" or satisfy unreasonable insurance companies. Either way, vote with your feet. In the case of Taco Cabana, there are lots of better Tex-Mex places around. I just wish Taco Cabana would change because they are close and open 24 hours... FWIW, the the hospitals in the Austin area definitely have properly posted 30.06 notices at every entrance. Travis County and the US District court house in Austin both have metal detectors and X-Ray machines as you enter. Most if not all resturants have the unlicensed firearms sign. Any that are not 51% are REQUIRED to post the sign. When I first saw them, I thought they were the don't ccw here and got pissed, but after I read them more closely, I found they did not apply to me and ignore them now.
It amazes me that either; a) CHL instructors don't cover this, or b) CHLers didn't pay attention. My CHL instructor talked about all the types of signage you are likely to encounter in Texas, both proper and improper, and what the differences are. He definitely covered the 30.06, 51% and the TABC sign you usually see in grocery stores. Unfortunately he didn't really have a definitive answer on the improper signs (like the "ghostbusters" ones) either, I think there is a lot of difference of opinion on that around. |
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Any place that sells for off premise consumption, or on premise consumption less than 51% is required to post this sign; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/txinvestigator/CHL/unlicensedpossession.jpg Do these signs prevent one from carrying a rifle legally into the estableshment? I have often wondered the legality of open carry of a rifle into, say a walmart. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I don't think those signs have any bearing on it, but I think it is probably a moot point, because it is fairly safe to say if you try it that you will most likely be stopped and asked to leave, and if given verbal notice from someone who is an employee of an establishment like that I think you have to comply or you may be considered trespassing. |
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Yep; and places that sell for off premise consumption must post the sign. I've actually seen a few stores that had a little add-on sign that said something like "This does not apply to CHL holders", which I thought was nice because it made it pretty clear that they welcomed CHLers. Oh, it may also be worth noting that even if an establishment that is required to post either that sign or the 51% sign fails to do so it does not change anything (it is their bad, not yours). Unlicensed carry is still not allowed anywhere that sells alcohol and CHLers can't carry in a place that is 51% even if its not posted. You are just supposed to know that bars are 51%. I think its important because I've seen a few bars where you really had to look to find their 51% sign and at least one where I never did find it if it was there. They better hope that TABC doesn't come by... |
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Any place that sells for off premise consumption, or on premise consumption less than 51% is required to post this sign; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/txinvestigator/CHL/unlicensedpossession.jpg Do these signs prevent one from carrying a rifle legally into the estableshment? I have often wondered the legality of open carry of a rifle into, say a walmart. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile RIfles are not covered under penal code 46.02, unlawfully carrying weapons. Violating 46.02 is a class A misdemeanor unless it is where alcoholic beverages are sold. The sign uses the word "weapon" in reference to penal code 46.02. Refer to penal code 42.01 for disorderly conduct, displaying a firearm in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm. |
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He said he had never seen a properly posted 30.06 sign. I am interested in what HE believes a properly posted sign is. Quoted:
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And what is "properly posted"?51 percent signs have big 51 in red in the background of the words. I have not seen a 30.06 sign posted properly anywhere, not even the court house or hospitals. Technically it don't count unless it is posted properly. I think he is referring to places like many Taco Cabanas which have non-conforming 30.06 signs. In the case of the Taco Cabana near my house their sign is not posted conspicuously at every entrance or even at the main entrance. This is why I ask. The law does not require that the sign be posted at every entrance or even at ANY entrance.
I have posted a detailed explanation of this in this section before, so I won't again. Look up section 30.06 of the penal code and read it. The sign itself is improper, since the lettering is about 1/2 the size required by law. THAT would be an improper sign, and not enforceable.
Other places have similar problems with their signage... improper wording, too small a letters, missing the Espanol version, non-contrasting lettering, missing some entrances, etc. ALl entrances do not have to be posted, and unless you have seen case law to the contrary white letters on glass has not be legally determined to be non-contrasting. ANd that is what I tell my students.
their intent is obvious that either CHL holders are not welcome or they are craven weenies who are bowing to pressure to "make people safe" or satisfy unreasonable insurance companies. Either way, vote with your feet. In the case of Taco Cabana, there are lots of better Tex-Mex places around. I just wish Taco Cabana would change because they are close and open 24 hours... Most if not all resturants have the unlicensed firearms sign. Any that are not 51% are REQUIRED to post the sign. When I first saw them, I thought they were the don't ccw here and got pissed, but after I read them more closely, I found they did not apply to me and ignore them now.
It amazes me that either; a) CHL instructors don't cover this, or b) CHLers didn't pay attention. My CHL instructor talked about all the types of signage you are likely to encounter in Texas, both proper and improper, and what the differences are. He definitely covered the 30.06, 51% and the TABC sign you usually see in grocery stores. Unfortunately he didn't really have a definitive answer on the improper signs (like the "ghostbusters" ones) either, I think there is a lot of difference of opinion on that around.
The only signs that are enforceable under 30.06 are those that meet the requirements of 30.06. There is no possibility for a difference of opinion for someone who actually reads the law. |
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Unlicensed carry is generally not legal at all and is a class A Misdemeanor; unlicensed carry where alcohol is sold is a felony.
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Yep; and places that sell for off premise consumption must post the sign. I've actually seen a few stores that had a little add-on sign that said something like "This does not apply to CHL holders", which I thought was nice because it made it pretty clear that they welcomed CHLers. Oh, it may also be worth noting that even if an establishment that is required to post either that sign or the 51% sign fails to do so it does not change anything (it is their bad, not yours). Unlicensed carry is still not allowed anywhere that sells alcohol |
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RIfles are not covered under penal code 46.02, unlawfully carrying weapons. Violating 46.02 is a class A misdemeanor unless it is where alcoholic beverages are sold. The sign uses the word "weapon" in reference to penal code 46.02. Refer to penal code 42.01 for disorderly conduct, displaying a firearm in a public place in a manner calculated to alarm. ^ THIS! Once again, TXInvestigator to the rescue. 
As for the Chipotle sign, it is simply an "Unlicensed carry" - blue/white sign. If it said 30.06 you wouldn't have missed the "30.06" that is for sure. As for the blue/white "unlicensed carry" sign that is not a 30.06 and in fact if you see that sign you know it is not a 51% + so it is basically OK to carry if you see this sign (unless of course they stupidly post this along with any other 51% or 30.06 postings). I would also add one important note here - DO NOT TRUST SIGNS TO KEEP YOU OUT OF TROUBLE. If you are unsure, you are welcome to ask. You are also welcome to leave. People make mistakes, most notably dumb employees or new management that is in the process of taking over a biz. You might be better off just leaving if you don't know FOR SURE and are currently carrying. IANAL, but I believe your lack of knowledge/awareness of the signs, "MAY" be defense to you in court, but it is at a Judge's discretion as to whether he truly feels you were carrying against your knowledge of the signs or if you truly didn't notice/see the signs (due to poor/improper posting). It is always better to be safe than to be sorry. You wouldn't want to lose your CHL and never be able to get it back again, would you? 
THEN AGAIN, I would never caution someone to go somewhere disarmed - The bad guys obviously don't give a crap about some signs, and I know some people who will carry anywhere they go regardless (because of the bad guys) so use your own judgement there. "It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6". |
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This is why I ask. The law does not require that the sign be posted at every entrance or even at ANY entrance. That is true, but it does say this: "iii. is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public." In some cases I think a reasonable argument could be made that signs such as the Taco Cabana's I mentioned before do not meet that in that they are neither conspicuous nor clearly visible to the public. Furthermore, by not posting at every entrance the business has made it possible for people to make the argument that they never saw the sign. The problem with the law is it is a little vague –– it says that the property owner just has to provide notice, but it doesn't say that the CHL holder had to actually get it. That given, I don't know how successful that argument would be in getting let off or in beating the charge in court. If someone knows of any precedence it would be interesting to hear what it was. Quoted:
The only signs that are enforceable under 30.06 are those that meet the requirements of 30.06. There is no possibility for a difference of opinion for someone who actually reads the law. That is most likely true when it comes to someone being prosecuted, however, the problem is not all LEOs are fully informed of what the laws are, so it is entirely possible that a CHL holder could get hassled and possibly even get cuffed and given a ride downtown even if the sign is definitely improper. I haven't heard of it happening and I hope I never do, however if I did it wouldn't surprise me. |
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Unlicensed carry is generally not legal at all and is a class A Misdemeanor; unlicensed carry where alcohol is sold is a felony.Quoted:
Yep; and places that sell for off premise consumption must post the sign. I've actually seen a few stores that had a little add-on sign that said something like "This does not apply to CHL holders", which I thought was nice because it made it pretty clear that they welcomed CHLers. Oh, it may also be worth noting that even if an establishment that is required to post either that sign or the 51% sign fails to do so it does not change anything (it is their bad, not yours). Unlicensed carry is still not allowed anywhere that sells alcohol You are correct... when I said "does not change anything", I meant to say that it was still illegal. Your point that it is actually worse because it is a more serious offense is one that should be well taken. |
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Any place that sells for off premise consumption, or on premise consumption less than 51% is required to post this sign; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/txinvestigator/CHL/unlicensedpossession.jpg Do these signs prevent one from carrying a rifle legally into the estableshment? I have often wondered the legality of open carry of a rifle into, say a walmart. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Legally you can carry around a loaded rifle pretty much anywhere in texas. But in any urban/suburban environment you could except to get hassled at best and charged with disorderly conduct at worst. Its just not a good idea. |
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Any place that sells for off premise consumption, or on premise consumption less than 51% is required to post this sign; http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v484/txinvestigator/CHL/unlicensedpossession.jpg Do these signs prevent one from carrying a rifle legally into the estableshment? I have often wondered the legality of open carry of a rifle into, say a walmart. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Legally you can carry around a loaded rifle pretty much anywhere in texas. But in any urban/suburban environment you could except to get hassled at best and charged with disorderly conduct at worst. Its just not a good idea. ETA: and then i read the rest of the thread and txinvestigator already covered it. |