[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Citizens Arrest!! (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/8/2009 8:42:22 AM EDT
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Let me start by saying I know how most L.E.O feel about this, and I even agree for the most part. In a CHL class I mention that all citizens in Tex. have the right to arrest for a felony committed in their presence or a misdemeanor in their presence under PC 42.01 disorderly conduct. Arrest and search is layed out in the CHL handbook issued by Texas Dept. of Public Safety, Subch. E. Law Enforcement PC 9.51 . Forcing someone to lay face down and let you tie them up can be difficult and dangerous. If you have a gun in one hand and nobody to help it could go downhill real fast. To attempt this without proper training is asking for trouble. I came up on a pair of hand cuffs left over from many years ago when I gave some thought to being a cop. It started me thinking about a situation, hypothetical, where it would be to everybody's best interest to hold the person until L.E.O. arrived. Even with help, if you had no way to restrain the person except to hold a gun on them for 10 min. or so, could still leave a lot of room for the gun going off when you did not intend it to. If you could restrain them it would allow you to go to a more relaxed, low ready and remember to take you finger off that trigger. So, has anybody else given any thought to keeping something handy to restrain a person with while waiting for L.E. to show? I have even thought of the plastic ties electricians and other such trades use in their work, as far as I know there is no law against having hand cuffs on or near by. Last but important, you could be sued for everything you own if you have the wrong guy. It has more than one name, false arrest, false imprisonment, illegally holding someone against their will, maybe kidnaping, I'm not sure,. Once again, Training, training training.
I'd like to hear your feedback. Tom |
| in this situation are we to assume you don't have access to a phone of some kind? Would it not be possible to follow them at a safe distance? I'm not sure why you would want to put your self in this situation where you are liable for their wellbeing. I think the proper course of action would be to gather as much info as possible and relay that info to LE. |
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Why would you have a finger on the trigger? That is just asking for trouble.
Remember, the only reason to have your finger on the trigger is because you are firing the weapon. If you're not firing, there is no need to have your finger on the trigger. You're an AD waiting to happen if you have your finger on the trigger and are trying to restrain someone. |
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Why would you have a finger on the trigger? That is just asking for trouble. Remember, the only reason to have your finger on the trigger is because you are firing the weapon. If you're not firing, there is no need to have your finger on the trigger. You're an AD waiting to happen if you have your finger on the trigger and are trying to restrain someone. Yes sir it's all coming back to me, finger off of the trigger until you have identified the target and made the conscious decision to fire. Tom |
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Yes sir it's all coming back to me, finger off of the trigger until you have identified the target and made the conscious decision to fire. Tom That is basic gun safety. What do you mean its cominng back to you? I don't mean to sound rude in saying that. Also this worries me a little! Annyone else? |
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Yes sir it's all coming back to me, finger off of the trigger until you have identified the target and made the conscious decision to fire. Tom That is basic gun safety. What do you mean its coming back to you? I don't mean to sound rude in saying that. Also this worries me a little! Annyone else? ShaZAM, it's basic gun safety? I guess next they won't let us point them at each other. This gun safety stuff gets duller by the day. Tom |
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I've been trained and would not want to handcuff without backup. It's not hard to hold a firearm on someone until the PoPo arrive. Just be conscious of your surroundings and by standers.
I will say one thing about getting someone in the felony prone position though. You're responsible for their safety once you start having them move around. |
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Come on fellas... this isn't THAT hard to envision.
You come home to kids in your house, or you wake up to someone in your house. Or on your property. Or inside your vehicle. etc etc. I know... "If some mother fucker is in my house he's getting lead poisoning!" However, best to have more than one tool in the toolbox. So how about some real honest to god advice? |
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What kind of advice do you want? The best has been posted.
If you're wanting a technical class on how to handcuff/restrain someone you're hoping for failure. It truly needs class time with a knowledgeable individual. The best case scenario you'll have a compliant suspect that follows ALL verbal commands. Second best case is you'll have a runner. Worst case is you'll have someone aggressive. Here's my $.02. If you have a compliant suspect, have them raise there hands and slowly turn so you can visually check them for weapons. Then have them go to one knee then the second and slowly prone out, legs spread, arms straight out and palms up and head turned away from you. The best place to position yourself is at 5 o'clock (for this instance). Keeping your firearm at close retention call 911. Give dispatch your name, description, location and situation. Case 2 and 3 will require different tactics. Handcuffing, is knowing body language and body positioning. It takes practice on knowing where to grab someone and how to actually get handcuff's on someone, it's not as easy as it is in the movies. Generally people who don't or haven't done it in a while will rush through it. They do not have the cuffs gripped correctly or push a bad angle on the wrist and spend too much close contact time, unarmed, fiddling with someone who want's to knock you're block off. |
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tell them to lay on their stomachs, cross their ankles and interlock thier fingers behind their head. then just take your finger off the trigger and wait. And when they tell you to fuck off, and walk away, then what? MOST of the turds walking the streets these days aren't intimidated by someone, cop or no cop, pointing a gun at them. If you haven't shot them already, they know that you probably wont. They aren't gonna wait around for the po-po to show up. Do what you gotta do. Just don't overload your ass. |
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This sounds like what we heard at the introduction of the CHL. Citizens can't carry guns, only L.E.O. can and that's because they've had training. We citizens took the training, started carrying, and have a record to be proud of. I see and hear more and more that an armed citizen saves the day. I don't know if there are any self defense schools out there that would teach the art of handcuffing. If not, it might be something to look into. So now we could have trained citizens carrying guns, and handcuffs, if they have been trained. Who could train us better than a retired P.O.? I would think L.E. coming to a call where the suspect is already detained, your weapon reholstered, he's ready for transport, would be a GOOD call. Guy's Please, don't go into a lot of situations where it would be total sucide to go rushing in, No matter who or what you are.
Tom |
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could still leave a lot of room for the gun going off when you did not intend it to.  How can a firearm go off if you finger isn't on the trigger?
Oh, wait, I forgot your's is for some reason.... 
Anyway, as others have said, I think the biggest hurdle in a citizens arrest is getting someone to follow your orders. This someone is a criminal, he doesn't follow rules by definition. If he just committed a felony and you pull a weapon on him, he's probably going to assume you're a criminal just like him regardless if you tell him you're a CHL holder and you're making a citizens arrest. The bottom line is you're(we) not LE. It's not about training or lack thereof, it's about the repercussions of disobeying a LEO. Criminals know what happens when they don't do what LEOs say. I heard this on a movie trailer, or something similar. Most people will respect your gun and comply but most have to see a badge alongside that gun to comply.... I would only attempt this in extenuating circumstances or if the felony was committed on my property, ie a home invasion. Keep some zip ties handy and make sure your wife and kids know where they are so you can the weapon trained on the BGs. |
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. The best case scenario you'll have a compliant suspect that follows ALL verbal commands. Second best case is you'll have a runner. Worst case is you'll have someone aggressive. You are alone and catch someone in your house... It's a kid... doing something wrong, being stupid. Maybe the neighbors kid even. FOR WHATEVER REASON, you've decided that this person does not need to die, at this moment. Prone him or her our and fumble with the phone one handed? Throw some zip ties at him or her and instruct him or her to put them on? Yell for help (and in the process weaken your authoritative position), maybe the neighbors will hear? Fumble in the drawer for a less lethal device? Maybe a taser? Even then you're back to where you started. Sit in a chair with your foot on the back of his or her neck? What do you do? I'm genuinely curious. I haven't actually followed this thought experiment before. |
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Prone him or her our and fumble with the phone one handed? Do you generally find a phone difficult to operate with one hand? No. I have some idea what stress and adrenaline do to fine motor skills. But to that level? I have yet to find out. Perhaps I never will. For myself, I do not have a home phone. Only a cell phone. My fuze is a touchscreen phone. And so requires a bit more attention to dial than a phone with physical keys. Every action opens up avenues of possibility. Opportunity for the suspect to take advantage of. The idea is to mitigate those risks. How is best to mitigate them? That's what this is about. |
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Speaking as a cop, we generally don't cuff a non-compliant person single handed. If I have someone at gun point, it will have to be very special circumstances for me to put my piece away and go hands on. Especially if some sort of violent felony has been comitted in my presence.
Get on the phone and call for help. I'd do the same thing, and politely inform my "participant" that if he moves, he will go home with one more hole than he came in with. Doc |
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This sounds like what we heard at the introduction of the CHL. Citizens can't carry guns, only L.E.O. can and that's because they've had training. We citizens took the training, started carrying, and have a record to be proud of. I see and hear more and more that an armed citizen saves the day. I don't know if there are any self defense schools out there that would teach the art of handcuffing. If not, it might be something to look into. So now we could have trained citizens carrying guns, and handcuffs, if they have been trained. Who could train us better than a retired P.O.? I would think L.E. coming to a call where the suspect is already detained, your weapon reholstered, he's ready for transport, would be a GOOD call. Guy's Please, don't go into a lot of situations where it would be total sucide to go rushing in, No matter who or what you are. Tom Only a fool would offer handcuffing training to the general public. I do not say this lightly either. I am a fomer LEO, and currently teach CHL and Private Security. Society does not need a bunch of wannabes running around trying to arrest people. |
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The answers have already been given.
Assuming you're already in a situation where you've had to draw on someone, then you can attempt to issue verbal instructions. Either they follow them or they don't. If they follow the, great, you'll have a compliant BG laying on the pavement in a submissive posture ready for the LEOs when they show up. If they ignore your instructions and run away, let them. Don't try to be a hero, just get a good description for the LEOs and be glad the confrontation is over and that you are safe. If they ignore your instructions and come at you, do what you feel you need to in order to protect yourself. Don't try to add to it, don't get near enough to the person that they could grapple with you and potentially gain control of your weapon (you're pretty screwed then, huh?). You have the advantage as long as there is space between you and the perp; as soon as you close that distance - say, to try and restrain him - you have just given up your advantage. Keep your distance, allow them to retreat if they want, but give yourself the space you need to use superior force if necessary. And keep your damn finger off the trigger until you're shooting. You're a ND waiting to happen. |
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Rule #1 is don't pull your weapon to make someone comply if you have to UN-holster shoot period you don't see police pull their weapon to make a person comply if a cop pulls his gun it will be used to what extent that is up to the individual. and you will not see a Dallas cop handcuff anyone by themselves. If you got your CHL to protect the public do us all a favor and don't renew it when it expires I don't trust the police with a loaded weapon and darn sure don't trust John Q trying to save me, he would more than likely get shot in that situation if I don't know you are a policeman and you pull a gun on someone that is robing me I will use your distraction to shoot you both
Rob (EDITED "upholster" sometimes spell check is not your friend) PS: I was always told it is rude to correct someones punctuation and spelling in an informal forum unless you appoint yourself the grammar police for the web so if you have to attack me for bad punctuation go fuck yourself |
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if you have to upholster shoot period It seems a little harsh to shoot just because your sofa needs some work. you don't see police pull their weapon to make a person comply if a cop pulls his gun it will be used
Bullshit. Oh, and...punctuation is your friend. |
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The only time i've had my gun pulled on someone was about 4am at my business. The same two punks broke in a week before and stold 7,000 in cash. They actually broke in the same day a week later within a hour of the last time. A adrenaline rush is a understatement when you have your weapon drawn, and you don't know if there armed.
The guy that I had down was more than compliant with my tone of voice, and me being very clear if he moved I would fucking kill him. He was more than convinced that I would shoot him if he tried to get up. Having said that I really don't think I would try to tie him up or bound him in any way. Just to much of a risk for him to get my weapon in a scuffle. If he runs so be it not worth my life in my opinion, or the stupid civil suit that would be coming my way for somkind of BS. The only way I would attempt to tierap someone up is if I had plenty of people to help with the task. |
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tell them to lay on their stomachs, cross their ankles and interlock thier fingers behind their head. then just take your finger off the trigger and wait. And when they tell you to fuck off, and walk away, then what? MOST of the turds walking the streets these days aren't intimidated by someone, cop or no cop, pointing a gun at them. If you haven't shot them already, they know that you probably wont. They aren't gonna wait around for the po-po to show up. Do what you gotta do. Just don't overload your ass. how are instructions overload? are you a cop? do you draw down on people on a daily basis? dont make assumptions on how people will react in that situation. based on any hypothetical situation, ie the kids burglarizing our house, drawing down and ordering them to the ground could be effective. if your in the situation in which you are going to try to detain someone instead of killing them, all you can really do is be loud and mad as fuck and make them believe you will shoot them. if they run they run. get on your cell and get your descrips recorded. your cell is essential anyway and it should be able to be used 1 handed what do you suggest other than "that wont work"? |
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Why would you try to arrest someone? I can see no situation where that would be a good idea.
If they just tried, or did, rob a place, trying to arrest them is going to put you at all sorts of risk. If no one is harmed... let them go. Point your gun at them, order them to stop, if they do tell them to remain on the ground. Have someone call 911. You don't need to handcuff them, since you can watch them. No one is hurt... there is nothing important you need to do besides watch them. If they are in the process of robbing someone, shoot them. If they just attacked someone, and are now fleeing, you should be focused on helping the victim. Do they have a pulse? Are they bleeding? Are they breathing? Do you need to perform some form of first aid? If they are severely wounded, wasting time trying to arrest the attacker is going to make it murder instead of assault. I would rather the victim lives, and the bad guy gets away, than the victim dies so you can be the hero that caught the bad guy. |
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Rule #1 is don't pull your weapon to make someone comply if you have to UN-holster shoot period you don't see police pull their weapon to make a person comply if a cop pulls his gun it will be used to what extent that is up to the individual. and you will not see a Dallas cop handcuff anyone by themselves. If you got your CHL to protect the public do us all a favor and don't renew it when it expires I don't trust the police with a loaded weapon and darn sure don't trust John Q trying to save me, he would more than likely get shot in that situation if I don't know you are a policeman and you pull a gun on someone that is robing me I will use your distraction to shoot you both Rob (EDITED "upholster" sometimes spell check is not your friend) PS: I was always told it is rude to correct someones punctuation and spelling in an informal forum unless you appoint yourself the grammar police for the web so if you have to attack me for bad punctuation go fuck yourself This is full of fail. Please go back and read chapter 9 of the Texas Penal code. Also please understand the Use of Force Continuum. (and I'm not talking about Star Wars either). |
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Rule #1 is don't pull your weapon to make someone comply if you have to UN-holster shoot period you don't see police pull their weapon to make a person comply if a cop pulls his gun it will be used to what extent that is up to the individual. and you will not see a Dallas cop handcuff anyone by themselves. If you got your CHL to protect the public do us all a favor and don't renew it when it expires I don't trust the police with a loaded weapon and darn sure don't trust John Q trying to save me, he would more than likely get shot in that situation if I don't know you are a policeman and you pull a gun on someone that is robing me I will use your distraction to shoot you both Rob (EDITED "upholster" sometimes spell check is not your friend) PS: I was always told it is rude to correct someones punctuation and spelling in an informal forum unless you appoint yourself the grammar police for the web so if you have to attack me for bad punctuation go fuck yourself To the stuff in red, if I see someone putting clothes on you for whatever reason, I'm gone. Piss on trying to upholster shit. To the stuff in blue......seriously, learn to use commas and shit. It's fun. And I am the Grammer Police. |
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PS: I was always told it is rude to correct someones punctuation and spelling in an informal forum unless you appoint yourself the grammar police for the web so if you have to attack me for bad punctuation go fuck yourself Ok... I understand your frustration. It is an informal place and so on, and some grammar police take to extremes. However, A message forum is a place for sharing ideas, thoughts, and other things in a textual form. Everyone can be more affective and share said ideas and thoughts more easily with a modicum of grammar. The clearer a post is, the lesser chance there is for misunderstanding. So, it behooves every one of us to help everyone else by attempting to make our posts as clear as possible. Unfortunately, in this environment that means proper grammar and English. It doesn't have to be textbook proper, but a little bit goes a long way. |
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Let me start by saying I know how most L.E.O feel about this, and I even agree for the most part. In a CHL class I mention that all citizens in Tex. have the right to arrest for a felony committed in their presence or a misdemeanor in their presence under PC 42.01 disorderly conduct. Arrest and search is layed out in the CHL handbook issued by Texas Dept. of Public Safety, Subch. E. Law Enforcement PC 9.51 . Forcing someone to lay face down and let you tie them up can be difficult and dangerous. If you have a gun in one hand and nobody to help it could go downhill real fast. To attempt this without proper training is asking for trouble. I came up on a pair of hand cuffs left over from many years ago when I gave some thought to being a cop. It started me thinking about a situation, hypothetical, where it would be to everybody's best interest to hold the person until L.E.O. arrived. Even with help, if you had no way to restrain the person except to hold a gun on them for 10 min. or so, could still leave a lot of room for the gun going off when you did not intend it to. If you could restrain them it would allow you to go to a more relaxed, low ready and remember to take you finger off that trigger. So, has anybody else given any thought to keeping something handy to restrain a person with while waiting for L.E. to show? I have even thought of the plastic ties electricians and other such trades use in their work, as far as I know there is no law against having hand cuffs on or near by. Last but important, you could be sued for everything you own if you have the wrong guy. It has more than one name, false arrest, false imprisonment, illegally holding someone against their will, maybe kidnaping, I'm not sure,. Once again, Training, training training. I'd like to hear your feedback. Tom Tom, I do not mean to sound disrespectful , but if you are who I think you are and you are from Royse City /Caddo Mills area you were my CHL instructor and I can’t believe you would even ask a question like that.. I hope you are not trying to teach that in your class now.... |
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Let me start by saying I know how most L.E.O feel about this, and I even agree for the most part. In a CHL class I mention that all citizens in Tex. have the right to arrest for a felony committed in their presence or a misdemeanor in their presence under PC 42.01 disorderly conduct. Arrest and search is layed out in the CHL handbook issued by Texas Dept. of Public Safety, Subch. E. Law Enforcement PC 9.51 . Forcing someone to lay face down and let you tie them up can be difficult and dangerous. If you have a gun in one hand and nobody to help it could go downhill real fast. To attempt this without proper training is asking for trouble. I came up on a pair of hand cuffs left over from many years ago when I gave some thought to being a cop. It started me thinking about a situation, hypothetical, where it would be to everybody's best interest to hold the person until L.E.O. arrived. Even with help, if you had no way to restrain the person except to hold a gun on them for 10 min. or so, could still leave a lot of room for the gun going off when you did not intend it to. If you could restrain them it would allow you to go to a more relaxed, low ready and remember to take you finger off that trigger. So, has anybody else given any thought to keeping something handy to restrain a person with while waiting for L.E. to show? I have even thought of the plastic ties electricians and other such trades use in their work, as far as I know there is no law against having hand cuffs on or near by. Last but important, you could be sued for everything you own if you have the wrong guy. It has more than one name, false arrest, false imprisonment, illegally holding someone against their will, maybe kidnaping, I'm not sure,. Once again, Training, training training. I'd like to hear your feedback. Tom Tom, I do not mean to sound disrespectful , but if you are who I think you are and you are from Royse City /Caddo Mills area you were my CHL instructor and I can’t believe you would even ask a question like that.. I hope you are not trying to teach that in your class now.... There were two CHL inst. in the area both name Tom, I'm the one that had the gun shop gun range. NO, I Teach the same thing today that I did back then. I have to go out for a while, when I get back I'll make an attempt at rewording it. Would you let me know who you are? First name, gun, what you drove, anything I can put a face with. I'm not any more or any less insane now then I was back then! Tom |
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tell them to lay on their stomachs, cross their ankles and interlock thier fingers behind their head. then just take your finger off the trigger and wait. And when they tell you to fuck off, and walk away, then what? MOST of the turds walking the streets these days aren't intimidated by someone, cop or no cop, pointing a gun at them. If you haven't shot them already, they know that you probably wont. They aren't gonna wait around for the po-po to show up. Do what you gotta do. Just don't overload your ass. how are instructions overload? are you a cop? I can see where you'd never guess that by looking at my screen name.. 
do you draw down on people on a daily basis? Well, next month marks my 31st year wearing that "Tin_Star". Fortunately, I don't do daily draw downs. But I've done a few over the years. 
dont make assumptions on how people will react in that situation. I've managed to stay on this side of the grass all these years by making assumptions on how people will react to any given situation, and preparing myself to respond in kind. based on any hypothetical situation, ie the kids burglarizing our house, drawing down and ordering them to the ground could be effective. if your in the situation in which you are going to try to detain someone instead of killing them, all you can really do is be loud and mad as fuck and make them believe you will shoot them. if they run they run. get on your cell and get your descrips recorded. your cell is essential anyway and it should be able to be used 1 handed what do you suggest other than "that wont work"? I never said "That wont work". I said be prepared if it doesn't. Today's criminal element doesn't always respond to intimidation. Some crackhead who is tweeking when you confront him will most probably be very unpredictible, and do exactly the opposite of what you tell him to do, if he acknowleges you at all. Then again, you might get some neighborhood kid who shits himself when you confront him, and obeys your commands without incident. I've done felony vehicle stops where there were 3 patrol cars, several cops with shotguns and rifles pointed at the suspects and they refused to follow commands. You just never know. |
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(EDITED "upholster" sometimes spell check is not your friend) PS: I was always told it is rude to correct someones punctuation and spelling in an informal forum unless you appoint yourself the grammar police for the web The spelling thing was an obvious joke regarding an equally obvious typographical error. Take a Midol, Nancy...and see a doctor about that paper-thin skin of yours. As for the punctuation... If you're going to post text that you expect others to read, it is highly inconsiderate to do so in a way that makes said text extra difficult to decipher simply because you're too lazy to drop in an occasional comma and/or period where they belong. It's not like I was nit-picking over a missing apostrophe or something minor like that. You were tought this stuff in grade school for a reason. so if you have to attack me for bad punctuation go fuck yourself
I didn't have to. I chose to because your lack of consideration for your readers called out for it. Then again, I also called out your bullshit claim regarding cops never drawing their weapons and forcing compliance without shooting. |
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Let me start by saying I know how most L.E.O feel about this, and I even agree for the most part. In a CHL class I mention that all citizens in Tex. have the right to arrest for a felony committed in their presence or a misdemeanor in their presence under PC 42.01 disorderly conduct. Arrest and search is layed out in the CHL handbook issued by Texas Dept. of Public Safety, Subch. E. Law Enforcement PC 9.51 . Forcing someone to lay face down and let you tie them up can be difficult and dangerous. If you have a gun in one hand and nobody to help it could go downhill real fast. To attempt this without proper training is asking for trouble. I came up on a pair of hand cuffs left over from many years ago when I gave some thought to being a cop. It started me thinking about a situation, hypothetical, where it would be to everybody's best interest to hold the person until L.E.O. arrived. Even with help, if you had no way to restrain the person except to hold a gun on them for 10 min. or so, could still leave a lot of room for the gun going off when you did not intend it to. If you could restrain them it would allow you to go to a more relaxed, low ready and remember to take you finger off that trigger. So, has anybody else given any thought to keeping something handy to restrain a person with while waiting for L.E. to show? I have even thought of the plastic ties electricians and other such trades use in their work, as far as I know there is no law against having hand cuffs on or near by. Last but important, you could be sued for everything you own if you have the wrong guy. It has more than one name, false arrest, false imprisonment, illegally holding someone against their will, maybe kidnaping, I'm not sure,. Once again, Training, training training. I'd like to hear your feedback. Tom Tom, I do not mean to sound disrespectful , but if you are who I think you are and you are from Royse City /Caddo Mills area you were my CHL instructor and I can’t believe you would even ask a question like that.. I hope you are not trying to teach that in your class now.... There were two CHL inst. in the area both name Tom, I'm the one that had the gun shop gun range. NO, I Teach the same thing today that I did back then. I have to go out for a while, when I get back I'll make an attempt at rewording it. Would you let me know who you are? First name, gun, what you drove, anything I can put a face with. I'm not any more or any less insane now then I was back then! Tom I did my class at Ammo Depot. My name is Scott and my brother was in the class with me. I had a Kimber Ultra CDP and on our lunch break I was on the gun range shooting my Bushmaster Carbon 15 pistol.......... |
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This sounds like what we heard at the introduction of the CHL. Citizens can't carry guns, only L.E.O. can and that's because they've had training. We citizens took the training, started carrying, and have a record to be proud of. I see and hear more and more that an armed citizen saves the day. I don't know if there are any self defense schools out there that would teach the art of handcuffing. If not, it might be something to look into. So now we could have trained citizens carrying guns, and handcuffs, if they have been trained. Who could train us better than a retired P.O.? I would think L.E. coming to a call where the suspect is already detained, your weapon reholstered, he's ready for transport, would be a GOOD call. Guy's Please, don't go into a lot of situations where it would be total sucide to go rushing in, No matter who or what you are. Tom Only a fool would offer handcuffing training to the general public. I do not say this lightly either. I am a fomer LEO, and currently teach CHL and Private Security. Society does not need a bunch of wannabes running around trying to arrest people. What was your opinion of private security guards while you were a police officer? What is your opinion of them now? Since the law gives security no more but the same authority as the owner of the property, do you tell them not to carry handcuffs because society does not need a bunch of wannabes running around trying to arrest people. I assume a "Wannabe" is anybody that is not a peace officer, or, are you saying people in other professions are only there because they are too stupid to be a peace officer? Handgun training is given to the general public, why not handcuff training? And since Texas CHL holders have a very good record not shooting arbitrarily, if handcuff training was lifted to the same level, I see no reason why the good record would not continue. Tom |