Posted: 8/13/2008 6:15:52 PM EDT
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NTCH Could someone try to explain this to me. I have read on here that this is the most optimal shooting from with the ar15 platform. I get that if you are standing, but is it still optimal if you are laying down, or lets say hunting. I am just so used to shooting bolts I cant get the fell on this yet. Another thing when you are using the NTCH method are you supposed to have your stock colapsed? Sorry just dont get it. I understand what it is for but having are hard time putting it together. |
It's not the most optimal, that is dependant on the individual. It seems to have started because someone thought it was a good idea to insure that the shooter had a repeatable and consistant cheek/stock weld....if they always put their nose on the charging handle....they would always be in the same exact position. The Army Marksmanship Training Unit spent lots of time trying to unteach the habit. You'll just have to find a comfortable position for yourself, where you're not trying to strain to focus on the sights or trying to dislocate your head to touch the charging handle with your nose. That's gonna take practice mounting the rifle from different firing positions along with both dryfire and live fire practice. There are several training facilities present here in the TX HTF that would be money well spent. mm |
Well what I always tell people when I see them doing that is this. If that carrier key ever comes lose and catches that charging handle it isn't going to feel really good the first time it cycles and smacks you in the face. And yes I have seen this happen more then once in the military
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ANYTIME that happens which is very rare - it wont be fun no matter how far you are off the CH. I have *never* heard of that happening in civilian shooting - and that certainly would not keep me from keeping a NTCH stance. That said - I do nose to CH, then pull back about 1". I fond this just works for me with irons or dot. For magnified optics - I set my scope where my weld works well at the low setting, and the high setting, of a variable optic. For a fixed optic (ACOG) I set it where it will be 1" off NTCH. |
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I was taught to do that in a service rifle clinic i went to,when i was shooting Hi-Power. It is good with irons,but i like to get up on the rifle as far as i can, even with a scope.I keep my nose close to it, but not touching it.If it rubs on recoil some, i am ok with that.It is about consistancy of your hold, but with a tight sling, you will be close to it anyway.You shoot AR's enough, you will find what is right for YOU. Enjoy your rifle, i have been with the system[AR] since '99.It is by far my favorite gun,I was a 1911 guy until i got my first AR.I can never see me without at least a couple of them. 
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That's pretty interesting. I just spent two weeks at Camp Perry for the CMP and NRA National Rifle Championships. I shot with AMU shooters, including Singley, Ward, Cooper, Dement, et al. If memory serves me, they all shot nose to charging handle. I pretty much know all of the Texas HP competitiors. Were you there? Granted, I don't know all of the answers, and I'm always willing to learn, but the vast majority of HP competitors shooting the AR use the nose to the charging handle. It provides a quick and easy reference to head position, but if you have some other method, I'm all ears..... Despite dislocating my neck and straining to focus on the front sights by putting my nose on the charging handle, I somehow managed to make High Master, go Distinguished Rifleman and be somewhat decent at High Power Competion using an AR. How about you? |
Not that i matters but the further back I am on the rear sight the more I am able to center the front post top to bottom. Today was the first time I took the scope off the A3 and used my BUIS'. I was shooting low but I was indoors and mainly using the front post and the long range rear aperture. Is there a good method for aligning the rear to the front?? I am used to my 10/22 irons and pistols. BTW, it rocked going rapid fire indoors in between concrete walls!  I would kill to line up an old dresser or beat up car and rock and roll. Drool...
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I'm not a competitor nor do I have any interest in high power. I have no clue who any of those people are. I went through the MTU, which has nothing to do with competition or the USAMU at that time. MTU consisted of civilian instructors and 1 NCO, the NCO's responsibility was to check weapons in and out of their arms room. MTU taught the shooter to practice getting a good check/stock weld where the face naturally contacted the butt. mm |
Ouch.... Did you go through MTU, where and when? Someone else mentioned that they had gone through at Ft. Lewis and were taught nose to charging handle....I went through at Ft. Campbell in 86 and was taught not to do nose to charging handle. I can't find any history on MTU, just AMU. I'm wondering if the MTUs were locally developed programs and were inconsistant between the locations. MTU was a week long class that taught NCOs how to run a range and provide basic rifle marksmanship. I, like most people in the class, went there for promotion points...5 points and at that time any points you could get were valuable when the cutoff stayed at 997 for 2 years. Looking at the AMU website, it does clearly show them nose to handle...especially in the pics of offhand shooting...the only offhand we did was to demonstrate the stability of prone and supported positions. In the service rifle competition, do the competitors wear helmets and LBE?(I really don't know, I've never had an interest in it) Could it have changed when we got the first kevlar helmet? mm |
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You made this statement-- "The Army Marksmanship Training Unit spent lots of time trying to unteach the habit." The names that I listed are some of the soldiers currently assigned to the AMU, the current cream of the crop, all championship level shooters. I don't think the AMU spent lots of time trying to unteach nose to charging handle, since they all seem to do it, and they are competeting with one goal in mind, to win. The MTU is the Marine's equivalent to the Army's AMU. It is based at Quantico. No, Highpower competitiors do not wear LBE or helmets. I guess they could if they wanted to, as I don't recall any specific rule prohibition in either the NRA or CMP rule book. Most HP competitiors use the nose to charging handle position in all positions, for the reasons cited by others previously. It does not hurt, even in the offhand position. In prone and sitting, a good shooter has a solid position, so there is even less recoil effect from an AR. Even in offhand, the recoil from an AR isn't enough to cause any problems, especially so when the ARs are weighted with lead ingots |
I was in the army. We had MTU at Ft. Campbell. Unless the civilian instructors were retired Marines, I don't think the Marine Corps had much to do with it. AMU did not send out training teams to other locations until they responded to Gen. Vuono's concerns that he had stated in Oct 1988. It really does look like the training prior to that could have and probably was inconsistant and that is why AMU became involved. I went through MTU well before that and as I stated, MTU went and untaught people to use the nose to charging handle method. On the HP rifles....I can understand the sights that have the ¼ MOA adjustments, and that they are only an advantage if the shooter has the skill to use them. But don't the weights kinda move it away from the "Service" idea? I think that maybe the rifle should be within + or - certain amount from a stock issue A2 and not have the weights to change the balance point or help steady it from wobbling around from breathing or heartbeats. mm |
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"It really does look like the training prior to that could have and probably was inconsistant and that is why AMU became involved. I went through MTU well before that and as I stated, MTU went and untaught people to use the nose to charging handle method" Sigh. The MTU is an an acronym for Marksmanship Training Unit. Is is part of the Weapons Training Battalion of the USMC, based at Quantico, Virginia. I don't know what in-house terms you used for your time in the service, You originally said the AMU "untaught" nose to charging handle. As to your statement adding weight to the AR, it is legal under both CMP and NRA rules for Highpower competition. Both the CMP and the NRA have rules as to what constitutes a "Service Rifle". If you shoot HP, it is entirely the competitor's choice whether to weight the rifle or not. Most do, to reduce the rifle floating during offhand. The rifle's weight isn't as significant in positions supported by sling use. If a competitor chooses , he or she can shoot a box stock AR with issue sights, no weight, no float tube, no sling---if that is what they want to do. |
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To each his own. NTCH works, it's repeatable, and it's easy to teach (and enforce) to people who have never seen, much less held, an M16. And as others have said, it is also preferred by lots of people who know what they're doing. But it's not the only way. YMMV. |