[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Bad experience at Alpine range (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/6/2007 6:50:51 PM EDT
| Until now I've done most of my AR shooting either at our department range, or at Tac-Pro. Today I decided to go with a friend to Alpine shooting range to sight in my A2 for a service rifle match this Saturday. I got there, payed my fees, posted up a target, and walked back to the firing line. I set one loaded 20-rd mag on the bench, and started messing with my shooting bag and re-adjusting their sandbags. I looked up as an older guy walked up to my bench and picked up my mag without saying a word to me. He started examining it really hard, and then tried (w/ no luck) to pull a round out of the mag. Even though the guy was wearing nothing to identify him as an employee, I assumed he must be, so I just stood and watched to see what he was doing. After jacking with it for a good 45 seconds he finally announced that my ammo was not allowed on their range. I was just shooting standard south-african surplus battle pack ammo. I pointed out to him that the rounds were not AP, and there was no reason to stop me from shooting them. He then directed my attention to a sign that read "NO FULL METAL JACKET RIFLE BULLETS." He told me that the only acceptable rifle ammo is soft point or hollow point. WTF!!! For those of you not familiar with Alpine, it's an outdoor range with dirt berms for back stops, and the only targets you can shoot are paper. So...what would be the harm in letting some one shoot some FMJ? For that matter, what would be the harm with some one shooting AP if they wanted to? There's nothing to damage! I'm convinced that the only reason they made the rule is to make people that come with FMJ have to pay their inflated prices to buy more ammo. I packed up and went to the office to ask for a refund. After trying to sell me some of thier ammo (SURPRISE!) they agreed to refund my money. Can anyone think of a valid reason why FMJ should be banned at this type of range? All I know is that I will never go there again, even if it's just to shoot a 22! |
From what I've been told the jackets can seperate and fly off over the berm.... That older guy is on a power trip. The other big guy that's 40ish is pretty cool. Going to TacPro is members only now. It's like a 200 buck membership to shoot on the 1000yd range....and me with a new GA Precision stick.....shit 
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You can head to TV whenever there's a shoot/open house. Most of us amateur LR shooters at ARFCOM shoot there. |
You do not have to be a member to shoot at TacPro. To use the long ranges, though, you do have to either be a member yourself or be accompanied by, and under the supervision of, a member. Anyone who uses the long ranges must be "1000 yard qualified" by TacPro. TacPro schedules a "1000 Yard Qualifier" several times a year, and you can check their calendar for dates. To become "1000 yard qualified", you must demonstrate knowledge of long-range ballistics and proficiency with your kit by shooting a group at 1000 yards under the watchful eye of a TacPro range staff, usually owner Bill Davison. |
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No FMJ is normal. MOST area ranges in DFW have that rule. Typically it is only private membership based clubs that allow it. There were only two public ranges in my area that allowed it, and one of them closed, so now there is only one. I have heard two reasons from the range owners. One told me it was their insurance company that demanded it, and he assumed several ranges used the same insurance company. Another told me it was a range policy, because there are so many idiots that cannot hit the berm, and will ground strike on the way to 100yds. This is why many ranges with longer than 100yds make you qualify at 100 first. Anyway, supposedly, a HP/SP bullet, in general, will be damaged severely on a ground strike, with the jacket more likely to seperate and deform. This would cause it to travel less distance, since it will likely ricochet over the berm. A FMJ is more likely to hold together, and bounce over the berm with good velocity and be more of a liability. In general, he said HP/SP bullets are less likely to ricochet at all. This has nothing to do with berm construction. The problem is, you get some idiot range-nazi's who dont know why they have this rule, so they make up BS about why. At Alpine - I would have told the guy to FOAD - stop touching my stuff. If you want to know something - you can look, and you can ask, but dont walk up and touch anything of mine. However, I know full well about the FMJ rules, this has been the standard at all ranges I shoot at in DFW since I have been shooting. I hate Alpine as well - the "big guy" was a jerk, and he had a real authority chip on his shoulder. I cant stand shooting there. Thing is - if you go make conversation with him, kiss his ass a little as soon as you get there, he will leave you alone and let you do whatever you want. You just didnt bend down and bow enough when you got there. I do shoot FMJ at all these ranges. All I do, is when I get there, I set out a box of black hills ammo, and a open box of my reloads with SP bullets, easily identifiable, as soon as I get to the range. However, my mags are all preloaded with FMJ. They always come buy, take a peek at the ammo, can clearly see I know whats up, then they move along. You just gotta learn the tricks. Welcome to the civvy world, and the BS we gotta put up with. 
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The full metal jacket issue is bad science and ballistics at best. We need Myth busters to do a program on the subject. As far as insurance coverage is concerned, I own a range and the topic have never come up with my policy. The basis for the flawed ballistic science is that a .223 round will do strange things when fired into a berm or fall short. You can't shoot that ammo, but you can pull out your bonded .375H&H magnum hollow point, that will shoot through 3/8 inch armor plate and shoot that all day. Let me see if I understand this, a .55 grain going 3200 fps or a 300-grain going 2600 fps. In my opinion, they don't like the black rifle and will do anything they can to make it uncomfortable and inconvenient for you to shoot it. The bottom line is they can since they own the place, and you only have the power to take you business else ware |
That's what I've been doing also.
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Preparing for a service rifle match by zeroing it with south-african surplus battle pack ammo? I find humor in that.
1) That is answer I received when I asked at Backwoods and Luna Road years ago. 2) Same thing, only I use Federal Gold Medal, and don't always bring the black rifle out first, bring out the 700 first. |
"3 round bursts"...but they don't allow full auto, so what they mean is that no more than 3 shots in rapid fire succession. I have been shooting at Gibson's almost every weekend for the last year and a half I have seen first hand the reasons. I have literally seen people do mag dumps on ARs and AKs and then during the cease fire see that there are 3 or 4 holes in the target. Alot of people can't shoot for shit and end up either sending a couple dozen rounds over the berm or blasting the hell out of the wodden target stands. As for Alpine, I've never shot there, but I knew about the no FMJ rule. I think it's bullshit, but it's their range and they can make whatever rules they want. I don't mean to be a dick, but if you don't like their rules then go shoot somewhere else. |
Sounds like Gibson's is good to go then. I'm not interested i bumpfiring, just practicing double tapping and the sort. I think I'll head out there on sat 17th. |
Glad I'm not the only one. 
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That young punk at Alpine has been on a power trip since day 1. That ignorant dumb ass belittles customers, berates everyone with his superior attitude and is quite disrespectful to everyone young and old alike. I watched in awe as he yelled at a grandpa aged guy for having half of one foot ON the yellow line during a cease fire. He was screaming at the old man like he was a private in basic training. Same day I saw that shit head not even allow a father to accompany his 14 year old son on to the range - made the dad stand behind the fence and watch from there. I ended up coaching the sons shooting and safety techniques because the father was kept back. I have complained and complained about that punk ass...Last go round I think I got the attention of management, I will let you know after this weekend. ETA - God help you if your bring NFA stuff around that kid, he doesn't have a clue about NFA laws nor is he even competent to understand what he is looking at....any hope of educating him goes out the window as soon as he opens his mouth and starts in with his "I'm the safety officer, I'm ex military, I'm gonna be a sheriff soon...I know what I am doing"  he seriously needs to FOAD
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I have been at Alpine only once, but that was enough for that idiot kid with a power trip to leave a bad impression on me. It was a week day around noon and the place was almost empty. There were about 8 guys sharing one pistol lane to shoot a .22 rifle. Some of those guys were so bad that they would miss if they had to shoot a cow 10' away from them. I was by myself about 8 lanes away trying to zero a laser grip on my 9mm. We were the only ones on the pistol range and that moron had to come to tell me I have to wait 5 seconds between shots. I was not even close to rapid fire or double taps when he came up with that crap. I was just taking a couple of shots and then stopping to adjust the laser. I just left after that. I am going back with my son to shoot his .22 rifle and an AR rifle. If that idiot gives us a hard time, we won't be back. |
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Is Alpine the one off Luna Road? It sounds just like it. You know if they would just toss the gang bangers, and the village idiot that has 15 guns in holsters on his body and likes to walk towards the target shooting every gun and dropping them on the ground when empty or jammed. Then they wouldn't have to treat the average good responsible shooters like shit. Funny how these places would rather cater to the SKS crowd rather than the EBR crowd. $99 vs. $800 rifle? I'd rather cater to the "big spenders" who end up buying ammo by the case rather than the box. Hint: More profits! I OWN PAGE 2!!! MY First ownage!!! |
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I too preload with FMJ and one or two SP's on top of each mag. I also set out a box of SP. I have never been caught. I really could care less about the FMJ rules. Not to be the dickhead but I hunt with SP and plink with FMJ. Don't make a scene at the range and youwoun't have any trouble sneaking around the rules. Garland told me that guys come out with .50s and since its real expensive to buy SP 50BMG a lot of guys have been putting FMJ bullets on a lathe and making DIY hollow point. He said that they keyhole the target stands usually. I wonder which one is worse off, the FMJ or the DIY bullets that arent even stable for 100 yards.  A few of us here shoot at a private place 15 min south of downtown Dallas its about $300/ year and many members are NFA shooters. This isn't a range with rows of benches set up and firing lines but you can shoot out to 400 yrds. The rules are: no drinking, don't shoot other people and don't burn the place down with tracers. When we get a lot of rain it can flood but other rangers around here do too. If you shoot during the weekdays you will find yourself alone a lot of the time. I like that. The owner told me to post that there are about 30 spots left if anyone is interested. IM me if you are and I can give you more details. |
Naw TJ, I shoot at Alpine from time to time. Heck, I've gotten positive comments about my SBR from the range officers. Also, last year, when my 16" carbine was going full auto on me, they let me work on it at the range, trying to figure it out and fix it. They gave me no grief at all for it throwing doubles and triples. I agree the No-FMJ rule is BS and junk science. But Alpine is black rifle friendly. They even have a decent selection of them in their sales rack. No FMJ, and I can bring my machine gun there either, can't shoot it even on semi-auto. But, their range, their rules. Some guys really talk up the Haltom City Gun Club, even though they have rules on how many rounds you can put in your mag, but they say it's a great range for certain types of shooting. Heck, they ALL can't be as cool Tiger Valley
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For folks on Fort Worth, have you considered Parker county sportsman’s club? Membership is cheap. You have to do an "orientation" but the people I have talked to about it seem cool. I opted not to go for it b/c we bought into Mickey’s place for the year. So far it has been working out well. It is about 45 minutes drive, but is worth it since I can shoot all the FMJ I can afford and people out there are all friendly and interested in having a pleasant shoot, rather than jerking you around. That young RO at Alpine gave me a bunch of shit b/c I had a magazine of SA for my FAL in my range bag while I was shooting my SKS. Not sure what he thought I was going to do to make that work, but it was obviously a dangerous situation, He then proceeded to almost burn the place down by carelessly tossing a cigarette butt into the dry grass. You should have seen him trying to figure out how to tell if my brother's HK SL8 has a round chambered or not. It was like Zoolander and the computer! I love to shoot shotguns at Alpine, but for rifles and pistols, it is not my favorite. AS for the no FMJ rule, the hand launch and sporting clays course are immediately behind the berm. So any lost shots would certainly be a real danger to living people (ME!). Their house their rules, but no need to be a jerk about it, and we know who I mean! |
From my own experience (about 3 years ago) Parker County Sportsman Club was not EBR friedly or friendly at all. At that time there was no "orientation" that you speak of they would take application and fees through the mail and send you key. Then the first time you go, the good ol boys decide wether they like you or not. They had probs with "rapid fire" and wanted you to shoot from a bench |
Re-posted from a earlier thread I love copy and paste, yeah i know I'm lazy........ No Alpine is still the best! Does anyone here remember the bitter old man who would put his hand on his pistol while telling you to get the F@#K out for firing more than 1 round every 2 seconds? Back in the day me and a bud would go shot our Uzi's and always save a 25 round mag for the end to do a full mag dump. The old coot would come running down sceaming like a nut case with his hand shakeing on his gun like Barney Fife telling us to never come back. Ah those where the days. Then we would go back 2-3 months later and he would greet us at the cage and warn us not to shoot our guns too fast or out we would go. Yes sir we would reply........BAhahahahahahaah The 3rd time we pulled this stunt I started to worry the whack job might accually clear leather, though my bud Sh#t disturber that he was insisted we go back in 2 months, low and behold our friend had retired. A young guy that replaced him thought our Uzi's where way cool, but NO full-auto! ooooooooooppppps we got banned real permenate like that time.
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HAHAHAHA I think go in the morning because I never see the young guy at that time. Weekend he's there but not weekday mornings. |
I got conned into going about 4 months ago, my first time back in years. Anyway the range officer walked/lumbered by while I was shooting a silenced .22 and informed me he needed to check it out and also see the papers on it. I unloaded the weapon and allowed him to check it out....... I flash my papers quickly and boy am I glad I did becuase he then proceed to confide in me "and anyone else who would listen for that matter" that he use to carry a pistol just like mine "suppressed of course" and do wet work with the Phenoix program in The Nam! WOW a real live James Bond and me and my friends got to meet him!!!!! All 375lbs of him, I think he must have lost most of his teeth in Nam too, man I bet he could move with cat like stealth in the jungle, yeah from one TacoBell to the next. Sadly since its all classified stuff he could not tell us much though, only 45 minutes worth, it was really to bad we had to leave while he trailed after us..... My buddies with me asked if I met him back in Nam, I then informed them that if anyone of them every talked about my secret missions as a CIA doorgunner on the Space shuttle in the Nam I would have to kill them! Besides if I did serve with him could could never reveil the fact, what with the secrecy and all..... Gosh!
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A good while back, I went in there with an Israeli HB to zero. Did the whole, preloaded mags with OK ammo and the "hidden" others. Well I learned to know which were where when I got "searched". First the guy comes up asking what the hell I was shooting, as in rifle, talks a bit, then asks to see my ammo. I reach down, grab one, and as I show him, I realize that I grabbed the wrong one. I state that the one in the rifle was one w/ allowed ammo, then when he asks to see it, nope, wrong one in there, and I didn't empty the mag. Then I tried to explain that they weren't steel core and used a magnet on it, but then he points to the friggin sign that says no FMJ. He didn't freak out on me though, just matter of factly explained the rules. So for those that put an allowed round on top of the mag. remember to empty the on in the rifle before they come by. |
Haltom City is a local- to Ft.Worth, ranger. It is a private club off Hwy.121 and Minnis Dr. There are some rules that some do not care for but it is EBR friendly. We don't allow FMJ on steel targets and there is a restriction of 5 rounds in a rifle. It ain't perfect, but it has concrete benches, is covered and has a 200 yard range. Jim |
I know for a fact he was chewed out royally by both Big John and the younger inside manager last weekend (2-4) for escalating an arguement with a customer. I was there today and he was pretty darn quiet and nice to everyone. Big John's a really good guy who just gets cranky sometimes! If ya go about it like FALARAK describes, all will be well. If ya go in all "Tactickle" with a case of Wolf, you'll be watched closely and don't use FMJ or you will have the next "Alpine rant" here. I MAY have a few mags of Guat mixed in with A visible mag of ballistic tips....just sayin'. And for Christ's sake, hit the freakin' target when yer shooting exactly one shot every 2 seconds for an entire 30 round mag. You make it hard for all of us Black Rifle/Fudd mutts!
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