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AR15.COM
7/26/2006 8:49:26 PM EDT
it's my understanding that face to face sales of handguns are legal in Texas as long as you're at least 18 years of age.

...but i'm having a hrad time finding it on the ATF's website.  all i can find are regulations regarding the transfer of firearms from dealers, not face to face transfers.

can anyone help me out here?  thanks in advance.
7/26/2006 8:56:46 PM EDT
[#1]

Quoted:
it's my understanding that face to face sales of handguns are legal in Texas as long as you're at least 18 years of age.

...but i'm having a hrad time finding it on the ATF's website.  all i can find are regulations regarding the transfer of firearms from dealers, not face to face transfers.

can anyone help me out here?  thanks in advance.
That is correct. The fed gov does not regulate intrastate sales between non-FFLs.
7/26/2006 9:12:08 PM EDT
[#2]
^not to doubt you but i would really like to see the actual laws, just to cover my own ass


thanks tim
7/26/2006 9:29:53 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
^not to doubt you but i would really like to see the actual laws, just to cover my own ass


thanks tim


Look in the TX Penal Code

ยง 46.06. UNLAWFUL TRANSFER OF CERTAIN WEAPONS.  (a) A
person commits an offense if the person:
(1)  sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to
any person knowing that the person to whom the handgun is to be
delivered intends to use it unlawfully or in the commission of an
unlawful act;
(2)  intentionally or knowingly sells, rents, leases,
or gives or offers to sell, rent, lease, or give to any child
younger than 18 years any firearm, club, or illegal knife;
(3)  intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly sells a
firearm or ammunition for a firearm to any person who is
intoxicated;
(4)  knowingly sells a firearm or ammunition for a
firearm to any person who has been convicted of a felony before the
fifth anniversary of the later of the following dates:
(A)  the person's release from confinement
following conviction of the felony;  or
(B)  the person's release from supervision under
community supervision, parole, or mandatory supervision following
conviction of the felony;  
(5)  sells, rents, leases, loans, or gives a handgun to
any person knowing that an active protective order is directed to
the person to whom the handgun is to be delivered;  or
(6)  knowingly purchases, rents, leases, or receives as
a loan or gift from another a handgun while an active protective
order is directed to the actor.
(b)  In this section:                                                          
(1)  "Intoxicated" means substantial impairment of
mental or physical capacity resulting from introduction of any
substance into the body.
(2)  "Active protective order" means a protective order
issued under Title 4, Family Code, that is in effect.  The term does
not include a temporary protective order issued before the court
holds a hearing on the matter.
(c)  It is an affirmative defense to prosecution under
Subsection (a)(2) that the transfer was to a minor whose parent or
the person having legal custody of the minor had given written
permission for the sale or, if the transfer was other than a sale,
the parent or person having legal custody had given effective
consent.
(d)  An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor,
except that an offense under Subsection (a)(2) is a state jail
felony if the weapon that is the subject of the offense is a
handgun.
7/26/2006 9:32:00 PM EDT
[#4]
again sorry but all i see is "certain weapons" to minors, i need the code that actually say I(18yo) can purchase a handgun
7/26/2006 9:37:59 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
again sorry but all i see is "certain weapons" to minors, i need the code that actually say I(18yo) can purchase a handgun
To my knowledge, there isn't one. That's why it's legal--the law doesn't prohibit it.

Is there a state law specifically stating that you can eat a cheeseburger while talking on a cell phone? No. Is it legal? Yes. There must be a law saying you CAN'T do something for it to be illegal.

FWIW, I bought my 1911 from a cop when I was 19.

ETA: Welcome to arfcom timpryor.
7/26/2006 9:39:12 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
again sorry but all i see is "certain weapons" to minors, i need the code that actually say I(18yo) can purchase a handgun
i'm no lawyer, but if i'm reading this right, there is absolutely nothing above that states it's illegal to sell a handgun to an 18-year-old.

i'm thinking that if it was unlawful, it would actually be listed.


and thanks for the responses, guys!
7/26/2006 9:47:56 PM EDT
[#7]
thanks for the welcome

thanks for posting that up for me today tim, the range was a blast
7/26/2006 9:49:52 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
thanks for the welcome

thanks for posting that up for me today tim, the range was a blast
we will be doing it again...  soon.


btw, make sure to check out the AR tech forums if you're still wanting to do that build...
7/26/2006 9:55:42 PM EDT
[#9]
i am, but now that i can legaly buy a handgun, its on
7/27/2006 12:33:11 AM EDT
[#10]
Thats the thing about laws .... They tell what you can NOT do

Not what you can do !

There is not a law that tells you you can make a cake !

There is not a law that tells you you can go to a movie !
Invisiblesoul
7/27/2006 3:44:42 AM EDT
[#11]

Quoted:
Thats the thing about laws .... They tell what you can NOT do

Not what you can do !

There is not a law that tells you you can make a cake !

There is not a law that tells you you can go to a movie !

Invisiblesoul



and any law that violates the constitution becomes null and void upon passage and it is the duty of the jury to find the defendant not guilty of unconstitutional laws.  
7/27/2006 9:57:56 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
i am, but now that i can legaly buy a handgun, its on


Understand that you can't legally buy a handgun from a dealer until you are 21.  FFLs have to play by the Federal rules.
7/27/2006 11:47:28 AM EDT
[#13]
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

=================

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f6

(F6) Does a customer have to be a certain age to buy firearms or ammunition from a licensee? [Back]

Yes. Under the GCA, long guns and long gun ammunition may be sold only to persons 18 years of age or older. Sales of handguns and ammunition for handguns are limited to persons 21 years of age and older. Although some State and local ordinances have lower age requirements, dealers are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA. If State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age, the dealer must observe the higher age requirement.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]
7/27/2006 9:08:14 PM EDT
[#14]
height=8


http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f6

(F6) Does a customer have to be a certain age to buy firearms or ammunition from a licensee? [Back]

Yes. Under the GCA, long guns and long gun ammunition may be sold only to persons 18 years of age or older. Sales of handguns and ammunition for handguns are limited to persons 21 years of age and older. Although some State and local ordinances have lower age requirements, dealers are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA. If State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age, the dealer must observe the higher age requirement.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

so that only applies to dealers, correct, as in i could buy a handgun from a pricate seller at 18



thanks for all the help guys
7/27/2006 11:58:28 PM EDT
[#15]
So if you do a face to face sale, do you both still need to go through a FFL to get the title transferred?
7/28/2006 4:15:43 AM EDT
[#16]
Titled transfered???????  I do not think an automatic is being discussed only sales of a handgun.  Our handguns are not "titled" in Texas.
7/28/2006 4:28:54 AM EDT
[#17]
A bill of sale is a good idea as it protects both parties.  The seller should make sure the buyer has a Texas DL/ID and is 18+.
7/28/2006 6:13:10 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


If Federal Law prohibits handgun "receiving or posession" by persons under 21 then couldn't someone be prosecuted federally for unlawful transfer?
7/28/2006 6:54:50 AM EDT
[#19]
Like someone said, us FFL's won't sell a handgun to a person under 21.

So, is it illegal for a non-FFL to do so?

If I were you, I'd sell it to his Mom or Dad. Let them give it to him as a gift. I can't do that either because that's a straw purchase.

Lawyers? Step up!
7/28/2006 8:00:20 AM EDT
[#20]

Like someone said, us FFL's won't sell a handgun to a person under 21.

So, is it illegal for a non-FFL to do so?


I am not a lawyer, but I would argue that it is legal if:

1) The buyer and the seller are both residents of Texas (Texas DL/ID).
2) The buyer is 18+ (Texas DL/ID).
3) The buyer is eligible to buy a rifle or shotgun from a dealer (How can you know?).

The safest course of action is to sell to FFLs and CHLs only.
7/28/2006 9:31:15 AM EDT
[#21]

Quoted:



http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#f6

(F6) Does a customer have to be a certain age to buy firearms or ammunition from a licensee? [Back]

Yes. Under the GCA, long guns and long gun ammunition may be sold only to persons 18 years of age or older. Sales of handguns and ammunition for handguns are limited to persons 21 years of age and older. Although some State and local ordinances have lower age requirements, dealers are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA. If State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age, the dealer must observe the higher age requirement.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

so that only applies to dealers, correct, as in i could buy a handgun from a pricate seller at 18



thanks for all the help guys


That is correct.  As it says, dealers are bound by the minumum age requirements...
7/28/2006 9:32:22 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]


If Federal Law prohibits handgun "receiving or posession" by persons under 21 then couldn't someone be prosecuted federally for unlawful transfer?


There is no such law, so it is a moot point.
7/28/2006 9:33:56 AM EDT
[#23]

Quoted:
So if you do a face to face sale, do you both still need to go through a FFL to get the title transferred?


No.  Like doctorfireant said, there's no "title" for firearms.  In Texas, a private transaction is just that.  No one else involved.
7/28/2006 9:37:05 AM EDT
[#24]

Quoted:
Like someone said, us FFL's won't sell a handgun to a person under 21.

So, is it illegal for a non-FFL to do so?


No it is not.  Only dealers are bound by the federal age restrictions.  Joe Schmoe is bound only by the state-defined restrictions which, as posted above by jadams in his quote of 46.06 of the Texas Penal Code, is 18.
7/28/2006 9:52:07 AM EDT
[#25]

Quoted:
3) The buyer is eligible to buy a rifle or shotgun from a dealer (How can you know?).


http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law.

and...

http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b16

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. ยงยง 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

In other words, there's nothing that says you have a legal duty to know.  If you sell a firearm to Bubba at the gun show, and you are not personally aware of anything in his past prohibiting him from owning a firearm, you're legally safe.

Now, if you know that Bubba's a felon, wife-beater, what have you, and you sell the firearm to him, anyway, then you've just committed a crime by knowingly selling to someone you knew was prohibited from owning/possessing said firearm.  
7/28/2006 11:55:14 AM EDT
[#26]
Oh, and...


Quoted:
If I were you, I'd sell it to his Mom or Dad. Let them give it to him as a gift. I can't do that either because that's a straw purchase.


http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b14

(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [Back]

Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.


This pertains to a juvenile under 18, but I'm not exactly sure what they'd say about a parent buying a firearm for their 18, 19, or 20 year-old.  Do you know of any documentation that mentions that specifically?

7/28/2006 1:20:38 PM EDT
[#27]

Quoted:

This pertains to a juvenile under 18, but I'm not exactly sure what they'd say about a parent buying a firearm for their 18, 19, or 20 year-old.  Do you know of any documentation that mentions that specifically?



Gifts are gifts, there are no age or relationship restrictions.

Yo know, I have been working very hard along with the NRA to prevent the enactment of the Brady "Close the Gun Show Loophole Law", and I am very stunned so many folks here are in favor it on a volunteer basis. I could understand if this was NJ or NY, but for it to be Texas is really quite sad. many of you have really fallen for their propaganda.