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Posted: 1/4/2006 5:18:40 PM EDT
I know that we have the experts in the Texas forum.

Over the next couple of years I want to build my 1000 yard rifle.

What is the base rifle that I need to get?
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:11:35 PM EDT
If you have a couple years to build it up, then get a basic Rem700 short action in Win. .308 (something with a heavy barrel, maybe LTR or PSS) and shoot it til it needs to be rebarreled. You can easily do your own trigger job (search the web), and add stuff later on as it fits your budget and your skills.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:25:58 PM EDT
Devil's advocate here, but why not .30-06...slightly higher velocity [less drop/windage drift]for a given projectile, definitely less efficient from a powder consumption perspective [for handloaders], and equally inexpensive non-handloaded ammo available vs. belted magnum varieties?

The only reason that I posted is that I am asking myself similar questions.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:46:51 PM EDT
Depends on what you want. AMU uses .300 Win Mags for the 1,000 yard matches. Of course EVERYTHING is hand made. Rifles, stocks and ammo. Oh yes, lots and lots of practice.

That being said, the .308 Win/7.62Nato round broke records for service rifle matches that the .30-06 had held for years and years. It appears that the lower SD of the .308 makes up for the slight velocity advantage of the .30-06. YMMV.

Just like in auto racing where speed costs money, with guns accuracy also cost money, but money can't make the SHOOTER.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:51:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By murderman:

Devil's advocate here, but why not .30-06...slightly higher velocity [less drop/windage drift]for a given
projectile, definitely less efficient from a powder consumption perspective [for handloaders], and equally inexpensive non-handloaded ammo available vs. belted magnum varieties?

The only reason that I posted is that I am asking myself similar questions.




I've shot the .308 at 1000 yards and liked the results.....

Devils advocates are welcome in the thread.
Link Posted: 1/4/2006 6:57:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2006 6:57:40 PM EDT by De_Professor]

Originally Posted By Big-FED:
Depends on what you want. AMU uses .300 Win Mags for the 1,000 yard matches. Of course EVERYTHING is hand made. Rifles, stocks and ammo. Oh yes, lots and lots of practice.

That being said, the .308 Win/7.62Nato round broke records for service rifle matches that the .30-06 had held for years and years. It appears that the lower SD of the .308 makes up for the slight velocity advantage of the .30-06. YMMV.

Just like in auto racing where speed costs money, with guns accuracy also cost money, but money can't make the SHOOTER.



I can shoot a little:




A clay shot at 1000 yards....with Mojo's rifle and witnesses
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:09:40 AM EDT
I remember that day... I hit my clay at 900 yards with the first shot, I should have just put away my gear and called it a day after that...
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 5:59:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By De_Professor:


I can shoot a little:


i23.photobucket.com/albums/b376/drjeffallen/clays.gif

A clay shot at 1000 yards....with Mojo's rifle and witnesses





Damn thats some shooting!!!
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:00:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By De_Professor:

Originally Posted By Big-FED:
Depends on what you want. AMU uses .300 Win Mags for the 1,000 yard matches. Of course EVERYTHING is hand made. Rifles, stocks and ammo. Oh yes, lots and lots of practice.

That being said, the .308 Win/7.62Nato round broke records for service rifle matches that the .30-06 had held for years and years. It appears that the lower SD of the .308 makes up for the slight velocity advantage of the .30-06. YMMV.

Just like in auto racing where speed costs money, with guns accuracy also cost money, but money can't make the SHOOTER.



I can shoot a little:


i23.photobucket.com/albums/b376/drjeffallen/clays.gif

A clay shot at 1000 yards....with Mojo's rifle and witnesses



But in how many shots?

Just messin' with ya.....I could be out there all day and probably never hit it. Good shootin'!!

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:03:13 AM EDT
With that, my advise is, buy any damn rifle you want!

Never meant to impune your ability, it is just that in my 55+ years of shooting and 20+ years working in gunshops and ranges, I've had so many folks want the ultimate accurate gun and would come back and say they couldn't hit s**t (which was true, they couldn't). I am an OK shooter and would take their rifle, fire one round at 50yds to check zero, and if it was even close, fire a three round group with their ammo at 100yds which would most often be 1 or less moa. I'd hand them back their rifle and tell them to either practice or sell it some one who could hit s**t


Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:26:50 AM EDT
Looks like you got the shooting down.(disclamer:this is only my opinon)

How much do you plan on spending on this project?

Are you shooting TO 1k or only 1k

If shooting 1k or farther:

I have a 338 Lapua mag in a AR-30 and love it.Yes you CAN shoot a 308 at 1K but i would go with a better 1k cal. if i was building a 1k gun.

338 win mag
6.5-284
338 LP mag
then theres always the 50bmg,but my 338 shoots better than most 50's at 1k and its cheaper to load for than the 50
I will not speak of other cals. i have never done the numbers,except listed.

I i ever(can afford) build a 1k+ gun it will be 6.5-284.

I would not go over 20x on my glass either,heat mirage is bad at long range for over 20x glass

Again Disclamer:just my 02
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:47:07 AM EDT
BTW, Mojo does not have that rifle anymore. It's a completely new rifle now (new barrel, suppressor, new day optics).
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:29:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 9:29:58 AM EDT by Sader762]

If you have a couple years to build it up, then get a basic Rem700 short action in Win. .308 (something with a heavy barrel, maybe LTR or PSS) and shoot it til it needs to be rebarreled. You can easily do your own trigger job (search the web), and add stuff later on as it fits your budget and your skills.



+1

Unless your overly rich or a guy who has to have to biggest baddest toy, buy the PSS and a GOOD scope. Then shoot the shit out of it. Learn things like trigger control, wind, drop, etc.

The .308 is cheap (less powder than other magnum types) to reload and has a great variety of bullets available for it. You should learn to reload your own, invest in a solid single stage reloading system and learn this skill.

If I was doing it again I'd get the Remington PSS, top it with a Leopold 10x40 Mk 4 with mildots, Badger Ordanance mounts, Timney trigger, and a Harris bipod. About $1800 total.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:09:50 AM EDT
If you can already shoot and have the money to feed it- .338 Lapua
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:33:00 AM EDT
Swiss K-31.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:39:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sader762:


Unless your overly rich or a guy who has to have to biggest baddest toy, buy the PSS and a GOOD scope. Then shoot the shit out of it. Learn things like trigger control, wind, drop, etc.


If I was doing it again I'd get the Remington PSS, top it with a Leopold 10x40 Mk 4 with mildots, Badger Ordanance mounts, Timney trigger, and a Harris bipod. About $1800 total.




We got a man with logic finally. Most of the off shelf guns will out shoot you for sometime. By the time you get your part down, a barrel change will allow you to try other calibers.

Only bad part is that togo from a 308 to a 1k gun(Atleast a .300 win) the short action on those will not facilitate that. You can always build a long action 308 like the M40.

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:00:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/5/2006 1:02:06 PM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By hrt4me:
If you have a couple years to build it up, then get a basic Rem700 short action in Win. .308 (something with a heavy barrel, maybe LTR or PSS) and shoot it til it needs to be rebarreled. You can easily do your own trigger job (search the web), and add stuff later on as it fits your budget and your skills.



This is what I am doing. I just got a box stock 700 PSS in .308. I did my own trigger tune from links on the web. I used a badger base and rings, but there are less expensive models out there, like TPS, and Ken Farrell. I topped it with a Leupod 6.5x20 LR target model scope with mildots.... nothing special, not a top of the line model. I started handloading for this.... and get about .75MOA. I could get damn near that with Black Hills or FGMM, but I handload primarily for cost savings.

My plan is just to shoot 5000 rounds through this thing, until I burn out the barrel, learning how to shoot. Then, I will send out off and have something nice built.

From watching other shooters.... most struggle holding MOA at distance. Many struggle holding 2MOA at distance.... even with VERY nice rifles. Quality of the shooter and calling wind make MUCH more difference than whether your rifle will hold .75 or .25MOA.

At 1000yds, 2MOA is 20". From what I have seen, hitting a 4" clay at 1000yds is unbelievable. Dont expect to do that all the time.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:04:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:


At 1000yds, 2MOA is 20".



2 MOA is 21" at 1000 yds.



Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:06:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Timanator:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:


At 1000yds, 2MOA is 20".



2 MOA is 21" at 1000 yds.






Nerd.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:07:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:


Nerd.




You need to just move to H town so we can all go shoot and argue mathmatics of the BD and Windage all day...
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:10:42 PM EDT
Shooting a .300WM suppressed is the cat's meow...Makes it very comfortable to shoot.

Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:20:45 PM EDT
Actually 20.94" @ 1k ...............
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 1:29:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Sader762:
Actually 20.94" @ 1k ...............




We have a new heir to teh "Nerd" throne...


Link Posted: 1/5/2006 3:04:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Timanator:

Originally Posted By Sader762:

Unless your overly rich or a guy who has to have to biggest baddest toy, buy the PSS and a GOOD scope. Then shoot the shit out of it. Learn things like trigger control, wind, drop, etc.

If I was doing it again I'd get the Remington PSS, top it with a Leopold 10x40 Mk 4 with mildots, Badger Ordanance mounts, Timney trigger, and a Harris bipod. About $1800 total.



We got a man with logic finally. Most of the off shelf guns will out shoot you for sometime. By the time you get your part down, a barrel change will allow you to try other calibers.



So you didn't like my first reply to his initial post??


Originally Posted By Timanator:
Only bad part is that togo from a 308 to a 1k gun(Atleast a .300 win) the short action on those will not facilitate that. You can always build a long action 308 like the M40.



No disrespect intended, Timinator, but "To go from a 308 to a 1k gun"...WTF?!? Many shoot a Win. .308 to 1000 yards, and even have enough terminal energy to knock down steel. Win. .308 is quite adequate for punching paper, at the very least.

Also, the USMC M40A1 and M40A3 rifles were NEVER built on long-actions (but the US Army M24 SWS is built on a Rem700 long-action).

I would like to invite you to come enter the Snipers Hide Cup (SHC) 2006 at Rifles Only near Kingsville in March, or the TacPro precision rifle match in June, or any of the F/TR matches at Tiger Valley. You'll really get to learn your rifle, ammo and gear.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 4:15:35 PM EDT
Huge subject. Rem 700 or Savage as a start. Yes I said savage, lots of good parts available. Bed the stock, I even bed the ones with pillars and aluminum block. Get a good solid 20 MOA base and rings, many out there pick one. This is the hard part. You will spend more on a scope than the out of the box rifle. I won't even mention names because everybody has their favorite, but don't go cheap. The 20X is good advice. I shot a 4.5 X 14 for a long time and then got a great deal on a 8.5 X 26. I put the 4.5 X 14 on my .50 (good move, it will never come off) and the 8.5 X 26 on my FNspr. @900 and 1000 in the summer I have to dial it down to 16X. Can't mil-dot at lower powers but that is another paragraph. Next one I buy will be the 6.5 X 20. Sling, bipod (Harris BRS), stock sock and mat....... go shoot. .308 is hard to beat for barrel life and ammo availability. Past 800 you will need to shoot 175's. Black hills or Federal, but you can "tune" the rifle by handloading. Try 600 X 60 and palma F class matches, you will see everything and get your ass handed to you by an old fart shooting a peep sighted rifle. Just start shooting and then it will get more confusing. Lots of good information @ snipers hide / paradise / sustainment etc. etc.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 6:17:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Timanator:

Originally Posted By FALARAK:


Nerd.




You need to just move to H town so we can all go shoot and argue mathmatics of the BD and Windage all day...



Wouldn't that be mathEmatics, nerd boy?

Back on topic, what do y'all think about a Weatherby Mark V in .308 vs. the R700....just curious?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 8:07:33 PM EDT
Would .223 or .243 in the Savage or Rem 700 work as well as a base for building a 1K gun?
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:05:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoonerBJJ:
Would .223 or .243 in the Savage or Rem 700 work as well as a base for building a 1K gun?



Intuitively, it would be more difficult to get the higher ballistic coefficients desirable for longer ranges with the projectiles generally available in those smaller calibers.
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 9:54:02 PM EDT
Both short action. I have no experience or knowledge on .223 @ 1000, but have seen it done. A friend of mine put a Midway .243 barrel on a Savage .308, he broke it in sort of, and I took it to a match to check it out. I walked it back to 1000 and it was within 1MOA of ballistic program with 105's. I won't ever build one, but was vevy impressed. (never say never)
Link Posted: 1/5/2006 10:06:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SoonerBJJ:
Would .223 or .243 in the Savage or Rem 700 work as well as a base for building a 1K gun?



Go with the .308 bolt face and shoot .260 Rem if you want a different caliber. .300 WinMag ballistics and .223 Rem recoil in one package.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:53:43 AM EDT
Someone else has touched on this: Savage 10FP or Rem 700PSS?

It seems like the Savage is a heck of a deal, especially with that Accutrigger. I played around with one in the store, and liked how crisp it felt, and the fact that it is adjustable. There are upgraded options for the Choate and McMillan stocks for the Savage. How much difference will those make? I've heard that the Savage stock is somewhat "weak", but under what circumstances would that affect me?

Now a second question: I'm planning on reloading. How does the .300 Win Mag comapre with the .308? The .308 is obviously a proven platform. I just thought that going with the .300 Win Mag would give it some extra legs for those *rare* 600+ shots. What are the drawbacks aside from more recoil? Shorter barrel life? .300 Win Mag less accurate? Anything?

After shooting FALARAKs rifle at 600, I've gotten bitten by the long range bug as well...
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 6:56:56 AM EDT
Sorry, I'm jumping in a little late on this one.


Originally Posted By Timanator:

Originally Posted By Sader762:

Unless your overly rich or a guy who has to have to biggest baddest toy, buy the PSS and a GOOD scope. Then shoot the shit out of it. Learn things like trigger control, wind, drop, etc.

If I was doing it again I'd get the Remington PSS, top it with a Leopold 10x40 Mk 4 with mildots, Badger Ordanance mounts, Timney trigger, and a Harris bipod. About $1800 total.



We got a man with logic finally. Most of the off shelf guns will out shoot you for sometime. By the time you get your part down, a barrel change will allow you to try other calibers.



A big +1. Sader has a Savage that shoots remarkably well (for a Savage ). He talked me into a 700PSS in 308. Other than replacing the factory trigger with a Timney, I've done nothing to it. I mounted a 16x SuperSniper scope in decent but no-frills rings and mounts. It shoots just fine -- much better than its owner.

I'll shoot the barrel out to learn what I'm doing, then start getting fancy with it.



Only bad part is that togo from a 308 to a 1k gun(Atleast a .300 win) the short action on those will not facilitate that. You can always build a long action 308 like the M40.



I shot the 308 out past 500Y for the first time at Tiger Valley last month. When we got to the 1K line I dialed in the scope for my calculated drop and made a perfect money shot on the first trigger pull. All the rest were on the target, and most were in the black. Elevation was right on, I just don't know what the hell I'm doing with wind at that distance. Even so, I was NOT disappointed with myself, my rifle, or the 308 round after my first 1K outing.

That being said, I can see where building a gun on a long action might give you more options if you ever wanted to "upsize" in the future.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:03:55 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Now a second question: I'm planning on reloading. How does the .300 Win Mag comapre with the .308? The .308 is obviously a proven platform. I just thought that going with the .300 Win Mag would give it some extra legs for those *rare* 600+ shots. What are the drawbacks aside from more recoil? Shorter barrel life? .300 Win Mag less accurate? Anything?



I shoot .300 WM (700 PSS) and love it. The biggest drawback is recoil. Shooting 50 rounds will quickly wear your shoulder out.

I recently threaded the barrel and now shoot with a SWR Omega on the end. Definately changed the rifle for the better. Felt recoil is nearly like 5.56 now.

.300 WM likes velocity, the additional advantage is the ability to use heavier bullets.

I personally load 200g SMK and use RE22. Reworking loads now, but trying for 2900 fps.

Sierra just released a 210g SMK that looks good. You can go up to 220g with the 1:10 barrel. If you rebarrel to 1:9 you can shoot 240g pills.

Be prepared to reload. You'll shoot at least twice as much for the same cost. I reload using Lapua brass, 200g SMK's and RE22. Current cost is $.52 a round.

To give you some ideas:
200g SMK, 2900fps, 200yd zero
Yds, Drop (in), Drop (MOA), velocity
500.0 -39.1 -7.5 2123
600.0 -66.3 -10.6 1983
700.0 -102.4 -14.0 1848
800.0 -148.7 -17.8 1719
900.0 -206.8 -21.9 1597
1000.0 -278.6 -26.6 1483
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:15:00 AM EDT
The thing that fraks me out when I read these ballistics tables is the fact that you have 200" of drop at 1k yards.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:20:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Now a second question: I'm planning on reloading. How does the .300 Win Mag comapre with the .308? The .308 is obviously a proven platform. I just thought that going with the .300 Win Mag would give it some extra legs for those *rare* 600+ shots. What are the drawbacks aside from more recoil? Shorter barrel life? .300 Win Mag less accurate? Anything?



To answer your other questions, typical barrel life is shorter than .308 and is usually somewhere between 2-3k rounds before throat erosion starts to have an effect on accuracy. If you're not shooting .25 MOA, then you can probably get closer to 5k rounds.

WinMag is just as accurate if you don't develop the recoil flinch. All depends on the shooter.

Another positive is the ability to almost ignore wind effects out to 500 yds.

Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:24:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
The thing that fraks me out when I read these ballistics tables is the fact that you have 200" of drop at 1k yards.



I'm just shooting a little 'ol .308. I have 200" of drop at 800 yards. At 1K I'm dropping 368".

That's TEN YARDS of drop. Kind of freaky. I couldn't believe it when my first shot at that distance actually hit the target, just like the computer said it would.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:25:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SC-Texas:
The thing that fraks me out when I read these ballistics tables is the fact that you have 200" of drop at 1k yards.



23ft isn't all that bad...
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 7:38:41 AM EDT
So if I understand correctly, throat erosion for a .300WM starts affecting accuracy around 2.5K, and .308 can go to 5K?
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:11:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
So if I understand correctly, throat erosion for a .300WM starts affecting accuracy around 2.5K, and .308 can go to 5K?



It all depends on how (hot) you load it, how well (or how poorly) you clean it, etc. You can help a little using Tubb's Throat Maintenance System (TMS) or get the complete Final Finish kit to prolong your barrel life.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:49:50 AM EDT
When I built up my long range rifle I was on a serious budget. I got A LOT of help from snipercountry.com.

I decided to build up a Savage 10fp in .308. I put a SuperSniper scope on it with Leopold rings. This was a 1.1/4" gun. Later I added a Choate Varmint (hate the "sniper" stock) stock, and a Harris Bipod. This got me to a little above a 3/4" gun. Later still I glass bedded the stock and did a great trigger job on the factory trigger and squirted it. Now it holds .6" groups at 100 yards and maintains sub 1 MOA out past 500 yds.

To be honest, shooting at 1K yards at Tiger Valley and hitting the black did not seem that difficult. Yes I need more 500+ wind work, but still very much within reach.

I reload 45.5 gr Varget, Sierra Match Kings 168gr. at 2.225", Federal 210M primers, Lapua brass. Gets me 2749 fps out of the Savage. Around 34 MOA drop at 1K, less drop than the other guys running the 175s. I kept hearing "at 1k it ain't gona stay stable". The fps out of the barrel really helped here.

I never "had" to buy factory ammo. I bought a Lee Aniversary kit before I bought this rifle so that I could reload on the cheap. I STILL reload on this setup, great bargain reload single stage press for $70.

Some things to remember:

1.) People who claim 1/2 or 1/4 MOA can't shoot that well. The proper way to measure is a 5 shot recorded group over MANY strings (at least 10 but preferably several shooting sessions worth). Too many people shoot a 3 shot group 1 time that is a 3/8" and suddenly their gun shoots les than 1/2" MOA. I still am waiting to be outhot by someone at the range with their 1/4" gun. Not saying that some people can't shoot that well, it's just that I have yet to meet them.

2.) A 1 MOA will shoot VERY WELL out to that 1K mark. That's 10" groups at 1000. A "1/4" gun is a 2.5" group at 1000. I believe the current world record is around 2.5".

3.) Inexpensive is not necesarily CHEAP. My setup was less than $1k.

4.) Listen to those people who are telling you things that sound possible. Listen very carefully to those people who shoot as part of their professions. I believe HRT4ME is one of these people.

5.) A .308 barrel will last from 5k easily to 12k rounds in a good barrel. Barrel life is important if you are learning to shoot. Other "magnum calibers" will burn out much quicker. .300 is around 2500k, .260 (.308 case) will go 6-8k.

6.) You will spend much more money on ammo then you will on the rifle. 1k rounds of reloaded match ammo is about $400-500 dollars (not including brass), commercial ammo runs almost a dollar a shot. RELOAD. The choice of caliber will determine cost. .300 uses almost twice the powder than a .308.

In the end do what you want. Me .308 is used by the guys in the military, great selection/choice, cheap, comfortable to shoot, loads of data out there, etc....
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 8:54:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 9:02:22 AM EDT by FALARAK]
First - let me qualify once again, I dont know shit.... but I will throw my 2 cents out there.


Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Someone else has touched on this: Savage 10FP or Rem 700PSS?

It seems like the Savage is a heck of a deal, especially with that Accutrigger. I played around with one in the store, and liked how crisp it felt, and the fact that it is adjustable. There are upgraded options for the Choate and McMillan stocks for the Savage. How much difference will those make? I've heard that the Savage stock is somewhat "weak", but under what circumstances would that affect me?



This has been debated over and over. The general pros of the savage are - cheap, great out of the box shooter (often better than the PSS) The general cons were crap trigger (resolved with accutrigger), no good stock options (McMillan finally come out with support...) fewer builder specialize in custom building/rebarreling/tuning a savage, since the field of expertise centers on the Remington 700 action. In general, there are still fewer options for the Savage line compared to the Remmy, but that is improving.

I had a Savage 10FP that I paid $350 for, and was a .5MOA shooter. I sold it and got the PSS for $700, which is a .75MOA shooter. I have no regrets, however.... since the $350 difference is peanuts compared to ammo costs, and future upgrades.


Now a second question: I'm planning on reloading. How does the .300 Win Mag comapre with the .308?


Bullet costs are the same, or negligible. Poweder costs will be a bit higher in 300WM, simply due to slightly higher volume, but this should be minimal. Brass costs will be higher in 300WM, and less available than .308. For instance - Lapua brass from Midway is 3x the price of Lapua .308. But once you get a decent supply of brass... this wont matter much. Without question - shooting and loading .308 will be cheaper. Ammo costs are one of the biggest considerations for me.


The .308 is obviously a proven platform. I just thought that going with the .300 Win Mag would give it some extra legs for those *rare* 600+ shots.


I dont know shit.... but I think .308 does great for 600+. It is the 1001+ you need to worry about. How often will you ever get to shoot that?


What are the drawbacks aside from more recoil? Shorter barrel life? .300 Win Mag less accurate? Anything?


There is a LOT more recoil in 300WM in the same size and weight rifle. I am a puss, and .308 is about all I can take for a lot of shooting. I have read barrel life is shorter in 300WM, but I dont have any data offhand to back that up - I bet a quick search on snipershide would get you some numbers.


After shooting FALARAKs rifle at 600, I've gotten bitten by the long range bug as well...


And that was just an AR10, shooting 147gr Lake City milsurp at 600.... in which it did quite well. Using a bolt gun and handloaded 175's would have been much more interesting.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:17:25 AM EDT
As far as ammo costs - this is how it breaks down for me, if I did the math right:

Lapua brass is $0.38 per case. ( I paid .32 on sale)

$0.20 - 175 SMK
$0.10 - 44.5gr Varget
$0.02 - FEDGM or CCIBR primer
-------------------------------------

My first loads cost me $0.64 per round. After that, reloads cost $.032 per round.

Black Hills and FGMM are both around $1 per shot. If I had to pay that, I wouldnt shoot LR. I aint rich.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:26:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sader762:
To be honest, shooting at 1K yards at Tiger Valley and hitting the black did not seem that difficult. Yes I need more 500+ wind work, but still very much within reach.



I imagine. While havent done it yet at 1000 tho...

I am not sure if there is a regulation standard - but the 1000 yard targets I see for sale are 6'x6' on paper, with a 44" bull, and a 20" 10 ring.... and a 10" X ring.

That means holding all shots to the 10 ring is roughly 2MOA. I imagine that has to be VERY impressive at 1000.

Keeping them in the black? Thats 4MOA. Seems like if you can read the wind, and know your dope.... that should be pretty easy to keep them in the black.... but I cant say, never having done it before.

I have absolutely struggled to keep half my shots on a 12" plate at 800 in medium wind before, but we could not see which direction our misses were. That would have helped a lot. Shooting at Tiger Valley is MONEY.

I still cannot imagine being able to strike a clay pigeon at 1K..... with any kind of regularity. Keeping sub .4MOA with all those atmospheric conditions? Maybe one day.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 9:29:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Sader762:
I reload 45.5 gr Varget, Sierra Match Kings 168gr. at 2.225", Federal 210M primers, Lapua brass. Gets me 2749 fps out of the Savage. Around 34 MOA drop at 1K, less drop than the other guys running the 175s. I kept hearing "at 1k it ain't gona stay stable". The fps out of the barrel really helped here.



But knowing 175's are more stable, is there any reason you wouldn't switch to them, unless your gun just absolutely hated them?

I have a 500ct box if 168's, but I dont bother with them.... since I want one load that does it all. I will probably end up loading these for my AR10 someday.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:06:15 AM EDT


But knowing 175's are more stable, is there any reason you wouldn't switch to them, unless your gun just absolutely hated them?



For some reason I never figured out the 175s where never as accurate as the 168s. I could have something to do with how fast I'm pushing the 168s, but I'm not sure.


Keeping them in the black? Thats 4MOA. Seems like if you can read the wind, and know your dope.... that should be pretty easy to keep them in the black.... but I cant say, never having done it before.



The wind was the biggest issue, my drops where always within 4-5" of center with many of the 1k shots being in the 10 ring. But every so often a shot would get pushed left (right to left wind that day) into the white. Wind is EVERYTHING. Rangs flags would have been great that day. Heres hoping to a longrange ARFcom shoot at Tiger Valley again some day.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:15:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 10:16:45 AM EDT by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By Sader762:


But knowing 175's are more stable, is there any reason you wouldn't switch to them, unless your gun just absolutely hated them?



For some reason I never figured out the 175s where never as accurate as the 168s. I could have something to do with how fast I'm pushing the 168s, but I'm not sure.



At 100 - I agree. My rifle can group a 168 tighter @100 as well, with the stock barrel. But I have been told, something that groups great at 100 may not group as well as other loads at longer ranges - especially if there is a wider SD spread in MV, which wont show as much at 100. I figured if I can hold .75MOA with the 175's, that will serve me better in the long run.... than the .2MOA advantage with the 168's.



Heres hoping to a longrange ARFcom shoot at Tiger Valley again some day.


AMEN! I'd love to spend some time out there... and bring enough ammo and rifles. Do service rifle at 300 and 600, and get good dope for my AR10 out to 800, and the PSS out to 1000. If we can get a big enough group of guys on a weekend - we can rent the LR for a day... provided there isnt a match or anything going on.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 10:31:27 AM EDT
Thanks for your replies.

I guess .308 is the way to go. MOST of my shooting will be done at 300 or less I imagine, and there's just no point in burning the extra powder for the 300WM - especially when first getting started.

I'm almost positive I'll go with the 10FP now that they have the accutrigger. It's a cheap, capable gun, and I'm sure I can learn a lot with it before I'll feel the need for something better (if ever).
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:24:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Zhukov:
Thanks for your replies.

I guess .308 is the way to go. MOST of my shooting will be done at 300 or less I imagine, and there's just no point in burning the extra powder for the 300WM - especially when first getting started.

I'm almost positive I'll go with the 10FP now that they have the accutrigger. It's a cheap, capable gun, and I'm sure I can learn a lot with it before I'll feel the need for something better (if ever).



Plus, I can probably hook you up with good quality riflesmith who will work on Savages for a reasonable price. Search Sniper's Hide for Randy (username HateCA)
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:42:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 12:35:05 PM EDT by Sader762]

I figured if I can hold .75MOA with the 175's, that will serve me better in the long run.... than the .2MOA advantage with the 168's.


LOL, I wish for that .2 MOA. My setup runs a little under .75 MOA out to 500. A 3-1/2" - 4" group is very common for me at 500. I haven't tried the 175s for quite a while, but, now that I've put so much into the 168s I'll stick with them.

A late spring Tiger Valley shoot would be great.

Since this is post 308 I'll edit up a pic of my setup a little later.


ETA:




Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:43:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By Sader762:


But knowing 175's are more stable, is there any reason you wouldn't switch to them, unless your gun just absolutely hated them?



For some reason I never figured out the 175s where never as accurate as the 168s. I could have something to do with how fast I'm pushing the 168s, but I'm not sure.





Fortunately, my gun likes the 175's at the shorter ranges. But I was surprised to find that Sader's drops were nearly identical to mine at every interval out to 1000 with him shooting 168s @ ~ 2750 and me shooting 175 @ ~ 2675.




Heres hoping to a longrange ARFcom shoot at Tiger Valley again some day.


AMEN! I'd love to spend some time out there... <snip> If we can get a big enough group of guys on a weekend - we can rent the LR for a day... provided there isnt a match or anything going on.



Maybe we could invite someone who halfway knew what they were doing and have an informal "long-range rifle for ARFCOM idiots" class.
Link Posted: 1/6/2006 11:54:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/6/2006 1:46:08 PM EDT by Timanator]
Just my estimates from reloading the 308


Estimate per 1000, asuming you have all the tools(Press, dies...)


Winchester Brass: $10 per 100 new, can be reused4-5 times(about 500 shots per 100 brass for total 1000 shots)

2 x $10 = $20

CCI Primers $25 per 1000(May be cheaper at places)

Powder Varget $20 per container (can make appro 150 rounds+)

7 x $20 = $140

SMK bullets from MidwayUSA $20 per 100

10 x $20 = $200



Total cost of 1000 rounds for me is = $385 roughly.

Edited to reflect the powder needed to load the 308.

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