Posted: 12/3/2012 7:57:24 AM EDT
| An NJ resident buys a Firearm from a Local Gunshop in NJ. On it'a face, this firearm Appears to be completely Unlawful to possess in this state, the customer, specifically asks about the legality of the firearm, and the Shop emphatically Insists that the firearm is in Fact Legal, so the Gun is bought and transferred to the customer. Down the line the Customer is now shooting his new gun at a range and some Look-Lou calls the PD and he is arrested for possession of an "Assault Weapon' as defined in 2C:39. Would that customer have the right to seek Legal action against the shop for transferring an illegal firearm to him, and would the shop/clerk be criminally complicit, or just lose their License for violating the Admin code??? |
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An NJ resident buys a Firearm from a Local Gunshop in NJ. On it'a face, this firearm Appears to be completely Unlawful to possess in this state, the customer, specifically asks about the legality of the firearm, and the Shop emphatically Insists that the firearm is in Fact Legal, so the Gun is bought and transferred to the customer. Down the line the Customer is now shooting his new gun at a range and some Look-Lou calls the PD and he is arrested for possession of an "Assault Weapon' as defined in 2C:39. Would that customer have the right to seek Legal action against the shop for transferring an illegal firearm to him, and would the shop/clerk be criminally complicit, or just lose their License for violating the Admin code??? The shop would almost certainly lose their license. In NJ, the buyer could sue for damages and would probably win. Complicity would be a streatch. IMHO, I believe the buyer is not recalling the conversation correctly. The buyer should not recall asserting any sort of prior knowledge about the legality of the firearm. The buyer was simply surprised that such a firearm was allowed in NJ and question the dealer to be sure. Trusting the dealer, he proceeded with the purchase. In that situation, the buyer could plead ignorance as an affirmative defense. "Yes, I did purchase the firearm. But I did so only because I was assured of its legality. If I had suspected it was illegal, I wold never have purchased it." If the ignorance plea was accepted, the hope would be a suspended sentence. The criminal conviction would stand and the buyer would have a criminal record, but hopefully no time would be served unless another crime was committed. However, if the buyer expresses that he did have knowledge of the AWB, he could not use that defense. I suggest the buyer take that firearm to PA ASAP and rent a storage locker. ETA: All hypothetically, of course. I would never condone purgery. |
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An NJ resident buys a Firearm from a Local Gunshop in NJ. On it'a face, this firearm Appears to be completely Unlawful to possess in this state, the customer, specifically asks about the legality of the firearm, and the Shop emphatically Insists that the firearm is in Fact Legal, so the Gun is bought and transferred to the customer. Down the line the Customer is now shooting his new gun at a range and some Look-Lou calls the PD and he is arrested for possession of an "Assault Weapon' as defined in 2C:39. Would that customer have the right to seek Legal action against the shop for transferring an illegal firearm to him, and would the shop/clerk be criminally complicit, or just lose their License for violating the Admin code??? The shop would almost certainly lose their license. In NJ, the buyer could sue for damages and would probably win. Complicity would be a streatch. IMHO, I believe the buyer is not recalling the conversation correctly. The buyer should not recall asserting any sort of prior knowledge about the legality of the firearm. The buyer was simply surprised that such a firearm was allowed in NJ and question the dealer to be sure. Trusting the dealer, he proceeded with the purchase. In that situation, the buyer could plead ignorance as an affirmative defense. "Yes, I did purchase the firearm. But I did so only because I was assured of its legality. If I had suspected it was illegal, I wold never have purchased it." If the ignorance plea was accepted, the hope would be a suspended sentence. The criminal conviction would stand and the buyer would have a criminal record, but hopefully no time would be served unless another crime was committed. However, if the buyer expresses that he did have knowledge of the AWB, he could not use that defense. I suggest the buyer take that firearm to PA ASAP and rent a storage locker. ETA: All hypothetically, of course. I would never condone purgery. Believe it or not this one really IS Hypothetical.. had a friend call me about a gun he saw in a shop, and what i thought about it.. I had actually Assumed he was talking about a shop IN Pa when he mentioned the particular model to me, since it's pretty new, but completely unlawful here. I Pointed him in the direction of where in 2C to look for the answer to his question. AFAIK he never went back to the shop, and certainly didnt buy the gun, however, if they have them im SURE they are selling them...which means it's only a matter of time till somebody gets jammed up. it's bad enough we have Shops telling people that Perfectly Elgal firearms can't be had here, but now we have dealers potentially making Unsuspecting Customers instant felons on top of it??  . I'm going to take a ride past the place today and see for myself.....i'm debating on whether or not to say anything to the people in the store if it IS there, or just MYOB and let the chips fall where they may.
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so... what did you buy?  A Saiga..last saturday from He who's name has been stricken from the Temples and Obelisks  If I was going to risk my freedom for a non-complaint shotgun it's be at LEAST a Benelli M-4 or a VeprThe unspoken is LEO. I don't think he'd sell something and compromise the customer or himself. |
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so... what did you buy? A Saiga..last saturday from He who's name has been stricken from the Temples and Obelisks If I was going to risk my freedom for a non-complaint shotgun it's be at LEAST a Benelli M-4 or a VeprThe unspoken is LEO. I don't think he'd sell something and compromise the customer or himself. No LD I guess I was unclear... that's what I Bought....from He who Shall Not be Named. The shop that reportedly had the 1919's was not Pa...I mean His place, but farther north..they took a lot of damage in the storm so they pretty much had nothing in there. when I took the drive over there yesterday. Hopefully they realized their error before they got themselves..or anyone else jammed up. |
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so... what did you buy? A Saiga..last saturday from He who's name has been stricken from the Temples and Obelisks If I was going to risk my freedom for a non-complaint shotgun it's be at LEAST a Benelli M-4 or a VeprThe unspoken is LEO. I don't think he'd sell something and compromise the customer or himself. No LD I guess I was unclear... that's what I Bought....from He who Shall Not be Named. The shop that reportedly had the 1919's was not Pa...I mean His place, but farther north..they took a lot of damage in the storm so they pretty much had nothing in there. when I took the drive over there yesterday. Hopefully they realized their error before they got themselves..or anyone else jammed up. Wasn't that a reality show's storage facility? |
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so... what did you buy? A Saiga..last saturday from He who's name has been stricken from the Temples and Obelisks If I was going to risk my freedom for a non-complaint shotgun it's be at LEAST a Benelli M-4 or a VeprThe unspoken is LEO. I don't think he'd sell something and compromise the customer or himself. No LD I guess I was unclear... that's what I Bought....from He who Shall Not be Named. The shop that reportedly had the 1919's was not Pa...I mean His place, but farther north..they took a lot of damage in the storm so they pretty much had nothing in there. when I took the drive over there yesterday. Hopefully they realized their error before they got themselves..or anyone else jammed up. Wasn't that a reality show's storage facility? if you're thinking of IMA..no Since they didnt have the possibly offending firearms anyway, it was a shop in Middlesex county in the Old Bridge area. I think we all agree the that Restrictions are WAY beyond stupid by now..and like I said it's bad enough that we have FFL's telling people that perfectly Compliant, Legal stuff is no good..but then others turning around and selling Blatantly unlawful items is IMO even worse. IIRC a Certain Essex County retailer got into a little hot water the same way with Bennelli M-4's a while back and had to buy back the guns from customers didnt they? |
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For civilian, a 10 round box for it would be illegal with the pistol grip. It looks like the old USAS shotgun which I think is specifically banned. magazine type or capacity doesnt matter, Semi-Auto shotgun with a Pistol Grip is Specifically banned in 2C:39..you cant even cite any Admin Code ambiguity on that one. |
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so... what did you buy? A Saiga..last saturday from He who's name has been stricken from the Temples and Obelisks If I was going to risk my freedom for a non-complaint shotgun it's be at LEAST a Benelli M-4 or a VeprThe unspoken is LEO. I don't think he'd sell something and compromise the customer or himself. No LD I guess I was unclear... that's what I Bought....from He who Shall Not be Named. The shop that reportedly had the 1919's was not Pa...I mean His place, but farther north..they took a lot of damage in the storm so they pretty much had nothing in there. when I took the drive over there yesterday. Hopefully they realized their error before they got themselves..or anyone else jammed up. Wasn't that a reality show's storage facility? if you're thinking of IMA..no Since they didnt have the possibly offending firearms anyway, it was a shop in Middlesex county in the Old Bridge area. I think we all agree the that Restrictions are WAY beyond stupid by now..and like I said it's bad enough that we have FFL's telling people that perfectly Compliant, Legal stuff is no good..but then others turning around and selling Blatantly unlawful items is IMO even worse. IIRC a Certain Essex County retailer got into a little hot water the same way with Bennelli M-4's a while back and had to buy back the guns from customers didnt they? You mean Moses f*cked up? I think I read somewhere that semi-auto shots were outlawed with pistol grips because the grip gave the operator too much control. 
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Right no pistol grip, My saiga has none, bought from a shop that is always in a panic. I heard I have to stuck with the little mags... as the 5s, they won't sell 8 or more in NJ I found some cheaper 5's (The 6's are $35+) but im having some "Issues' with them..i just havent had time to really work out where exactly they are hanging up. Got them from keepshooting.com. at $12.00 they're worth it..as long as i dont have to do a really stupid amount of work to make them function. |
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Right no pistol grip, My saiga has none, bought from a shop that is always in a panic. I heard I have to stuck with the little mags... as the 5s, they won't sell 8 or more in NJ The Saiga 12 is kind of interesting in that the 12rd mags for it are technically legal here. |
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Right no pistol grip, My saiga has none, bought from a shop that is always in a panic. I heard I have to stuck with the little mags... as the 5s, they won't sell 8 or more in NJ The Saiga 12 is kind of interesting in that the 12rd mags for it are technically legal here. Do you mean that if you do not possess a Saiga 12 semiautomatic shotgun, posession of the 12-round mag unto itself is not illegal. That is true. However, if you are in posession of both the 12-round mag and the Saiga 12, you are in posession of an assault firearm. I guess you could order some 12-rounders and pin them to 6 rounders before picking up the Saiga 12 from your FFL. |
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Right no pistol grip, My saiga has none, bought from a shop that is always in a panic. I heard I have to stuck with the little mags... as the 5s, they won't sell 8 or more in NJ The Saiga 12 is kind of interesting in that the 12rd mags for it are technically legal here. Do you mean that if you do not possess a Saiga 12 semiautomatic shotgun, posession of the 12-round mag unto itself is not illegal. That is true. However, if you are in posession of both the 12-round mag and the Saiga 12, you are in posession of an assault firearm. I guess you could order some 12-rounders and pin them to 6 rounders before picking up the Saiga 12 from your FFL. Yeah. Nothing illegal about the magazines themselves until you insert them into the gun giving it a "magazine capacity exceeding 6 rounds". |
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Right no pistol grip, My saiga has none, bought from a shop that is always in a panic. I heard I have to stuck with the little mags... as the 5s, they won't sell 8 or more in NJ The Saiga 12 is kind of interesting in that the 12rd mags for it are technically legal here. Do you mean that if you do not possess a Saiga 12 semiautomatic shotgun, posession of the 12-round mag unto itself is not illegal. That is true. However, if you are in posession of both the 12-round mag and the Saiga 12, you are in posession of an assault firearm. I guess you could order some 12-rounders and pin them to 6 rounders before picking up the Saiga 12 from your FFL. Yeah. Nothing illegal about the magazines themselves until you insert them into the gun giving it a "magazine capacity exceeding 6 rounds". Not even that. Constructive posession would kick in once you have coincidental access to both the magazine and the firearm. Being in posession of components from which a so-called "assault firearm" can be constructed does in fact constitute posession of a so-called "assault firearm." |
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Right no pistol grip, My saiga has none, bought from a shop that is always in a panic. I heard I have to stuck with the little mags... as the 5s, they won't sell 8 or more in NJ The Saiga 12 is kind of interesting in that the 12rd mags for it are technically legal here. Do you mean that if you do not possess a Saiga 12 semiautomatic shotgun, posession of the 12-round mag unto itself is not illegal. That is true. However, if you are in posession of both the 12-round mag and the Saiga 12, you are in posession of an assault firearm. I guess you could order some 12-rounders and pin them to 6 rounders before picking up the Saiga 12 from your FFL. Yeah. Nothing illegal about the magazines themselves until you insert them into the gun giving it a "magazine capacity exceeding 6 rounds". Not even that. Constructive posession would kick in once you have coincidental access to both the magazine and the firearm. Being in posession of components from which a so-called "assault firearm" can be constructed does in fact constitute posession of a so-called "assault firearm." Yes, that is true. |
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A lot of Saiga mags have extra plastic so you can trim to fit I realize that im just having trouble figuring out exactly where it's hanging up and it's pissing me off lol Take the mag apart and put a line of white out down the inside of each wall. The follower will make a mark in the spot or spots where its binding that you should easily be able to pick it up beyond just the normal drag marks. If it's not the follower dragging on the inside of the mag that's causing your issue, I'd suggest making up some dummy rounds and hand cycling the gun while watching the ejection port. I found that in our newer guns back in the day, the are where the mag fed into the chamber needed a little "work" with certain mags. The PD I worked for before my current agency actually issued factory converted Saiaga 12's with folding stocks as our duty shotguns  . They were amazing once they got running right and honestly, just the look of them got me out of a few binds that would have otherwise likely required me pulling the trigger.
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A lot of Saiga mags have extra plastic so you can trim to fit I realize that im just having trouble figuring out exactly where it's hanging up and it's pissing me off lol Take the mag apart and put a line of white out down the inside of each wall. The follower will make a mark in the spot or spots where its binding that you should easily be able to pick it up beyond just the normal drag marks. If it's not the follower dragging on the inside of the mag that's causing your issue, I'd suggest making up some dummy rounds and hand cycling the gun while watching the ejection port. I found that in our newer guns back in the day, the are where the mag fed into the chamber needed a little "work" with certain mags. The PD I worked for before my current agency actually issued factory converted Saiaga 12's with folding stocks as our duty shotguns . They were amazing once they got running right and honestly, just the look of them got me out of a few binds that would have otherwise likely required me pulling the trigger.It's not that, I cant get these to seat AT ALL the mag is binding up somewhere about 1/8 of an inch before the catch can work. The mags come with a sheet that says they need fitting since they're designed to fit the original magwell, but even after making the alteration the instructions called for none of them are seating..the frustrating part is I sat with a pair of calipers and compared against the factory mag that came with the shotgun and i cant see where the difference is that is hanging this thing up. |