Posted: 9/25/2009 3:27:26 PM EDT
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I spent the greater part of yesterday attending this meeting, listening to testimony. Not a lot that is relevant to this board, since for now this only deals with handguns. I did hear two very interesting things in the course of the day. First, in the testimony of several presidents of NJ Rod & Gun Clubs, I learned that there is a NJ requirement that such clubs must annually submit a list of all the active club members to the NJSP. That, to me, is a bit disturbing and enough to prevent me from ever joining a NJ club (I belong to two in PA). I realize that in this state the state police probably have multiple sources that tell them who has guns, etc. but having to submit a list just confirms that the government in this state does not trust the citizenry (and in my case, vice versa).
The second thing that I heard just points up the abuse of power that has long been SOP in this state. A retired NJSP major was testifying, in an attempt to secure an exemption from the OGAM law for competitive shooters - a good thing. However, he told a story that made my blood boil. He was in charge of the firearms unit of the NJSP in 1993 when the NJ "Assault Weapons Ban" was being crafted. He said that the Assistant Attorney General relied on him for firearms information when compiling the list of weapons to be banned. At this time he (the major) was a competitive High Power shooter. Much to his chagrin the Springfield M1A and the Colt AR-15 H-Bar were included on the list. He had them removed. We all know that those guns are functionally identical to the other evil rifles on that list, but because of his influence and his special interest he persuaded the AAG to not include them. As to OGAM itself, I'm fairly confident that they will fix the flaw that did not exempt FFL holders, which would have put them out of business and resulted in a defacto handgun ban. Pretty sure they'll craft other exemptions, but not sure for whom or how they will be defined. One thing that was stressed and seemed to catch their attention was the need to streamline the handgun purchase process in this age of NICS - I'm not going to hold my breath, but you could tell that this was the first time that many of these people were hearing anything about the triple redundancy we live with here in the PRNJ. Overall a positive experience, but one that should have occurred before the bill was passed and signed into law. Adios, Pizza Bob |
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I spent the greater part of yesterday attending this meeting, listening to testimony. Not a lot that is relevant to this board, since for now this only deals with handguns. I did hear two very interesting things in the course of the day. First, in the testimony of several presidents of NJ Rod & Gun Clubs, I learned that there is a NJ requirement that such clubs must annually submit a list of all the active club members to the NJSP. That, to me, is a bit disturbing and enough to prevent me from ever joining a NJ club (I belong to two in PA). I realize that in this state the state police probably have multiple sources that tell them who has guns, etc. but having to submit a list just confirms that the government in this state does not trust the citizenry (and in my case, vice versa). Pizza Bob This has been effect for many years. As a long time member of CJRPC the membership decided it wasn't a big deal since the NJSP already knew we were firearms owners. I fail to see why this would be a concern to you. |
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The second thing that I heard just points up the abuse of power that has long been SOP in this state. A retired NJSP major was testifying, in an attempt to secure an exemption from the OGAM law for competitive shooters - a good thing. However, he told a story that made my blood boil. He was in charge of the firearms unit of the NJSP in 1993 when the NJ "Assault Weapons Ban" was being crafted. He said that the Assistant Attorney General relied on him for firearms information when compiling the list of weapons to be banned. At this time he (the major) was a competitive High Power shooter. Much to his chagrin the Springfield M1A and the Colt AR-15 H-Bar were included on the list. He had them removed. We all know that those guns are functionally identical to the other evil rifles on that list, but because of his influence and his special interest he persuaded the AAG to not include them Sounds like he only protected his own interest. What about the substantially identical features of the AAGs suggestions, where did those come from? Those alone exempt countless of "evil" weapons that have no impact on lethality, rather you cannot mount a bayonet, make the buttstock do tricks, or hide the muzzle flash/slap on your favorite illegal suppressor... |
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[span style='font-weight: bold;']I fail to see why this would be a concern to you.
Because it is none of their damned business.....anymore than it is any of their damned business what inanimate objects of personal property I own. I agree but still don't see why it would concern you. They already know your a gun owner . You do have a FID Card right? You had to buy your pistol with a permit right? So they already know whether you like it or not. NJ Statutes Title 2C:39-6f Nothing in subsections b,c,and d of NJS 2c:39-5 shall construed to prevent: 1) A member of any rifle or pistol club organized in accordance with the rules prescribed by the National Board for the Promotion of Rifle Practice, in going to or from a place of target practice, provided that club has filed a copy of it's charter with the superintendent and annually submits a list of its members to the superintendent and provided further that the firearms are carried in the manner specified in subsection g. of this section. The above information is printed on the back of our membership badges in case we are ever involved in a traffic stop or accident to let the Police know we are carrying firearms in the vehicle. Personally I just keep my mouth shut but it's there if I need it. |
| I am aware of that, and understand they already know about everything. But again, the mere fact that I own a firearm is none of their damned business. It concerns me because again, here we have a prime example of the intrusion and overreach of government in our state, which hosted some of the most pivotal battles of the american revolution, fought to provide our freedom from such governments, demanding they have the right to know what you own and where you go. |
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I am aware of that, and understand they already know about everything. But again, the mere fact that I own a firearm is none of their damned business. It concerns me because again, here we have a prime example of the intrusion and overreach of government in our state, which hosted some of the most pivotal battles of the american revolution, fought to provide our freedom from such governments, demanding they have the right to know what you own and where you go. Yet our founding fathers here in NJ NEVER ADDED RKBA to the state Constitution which was first ratified on 2 July 1776. We in NJ have never, from the beginning had any protection of this right, and until SCOTUS hears the Chicago case, and finally rules on incorporation we have to live with that reality... |
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Here's how our state legislature is going to try to unfuck us:
http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2008/Bills/S3500/3068_I1.PDF Link to article |
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Here's how our state legislature is going to try to unfuck us: http://www.njleg.state.nj.us/2008/Bills/S3500/3068_I1.PDF Link to article That still doesnt unfuck the rest of us non FFL holders. Ideally thinking, we have been fucked the whole time. slightlymoreinsteadofalotmorefucked lol. |
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Quoted: 2C:58-2(a)(7)(b) exempts C&R holders, which in itself shows that NJ recognizes the license as valid.Quoted: I guess I better get the ball rolling on my C&R application. Won't do a bit of good... because even as a C&R holder, you would not be "a licensed retail dealer, registered wholesale dealer, or a registered manufacturer". |
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...i too am aware of the C&r issues in the state, but fuck them, im getting my C&R anyway. You have the polarity reversed Bend over and bear down And hope there's no sand in the lube 
(if the Firearms Unit uses lube at all) firearms unit is going to be way too busy investigating EVERY used pistol permit returned to them to ensure OGAM compliance to have the time to send a bunch of guys to the houses of every C&R permit holder in this state, because manpower costs money, and money is something this state has very little of At the moment. |
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firearms unit is going to be way too busy investigating EVERY used pistol permit returned to them to ensure OGAM compliance to have the time to send a bunch of guys to the houses of every C&R permit holder in this state, because manpower costs money, and money is something this state has very little of At the moment. IMO: The enforcement of the 30 day magic period (sort of reminds me of my ex-wife, but I digress) will fall upon the issuing agency, in most cases the local PD, that gets the yellow copy of the PPP after the transaction. The white copy will still go to the NJSP Firearms Unit, but it will take a while (given the lack of cash) before they do anything with it except enter the data into the NJ Handgun Registry. It's been rumored that the Firearms Unit Inspectors are scouring the GSA Schedule looking for a large quantity of proctoscopes for the anticipated load of C&R applications. 
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firearms unit is going to be way too busy investigating EVERY used pistol permit returned to them to ensure OGAM compliance to have the time to send a bunch of guys to the houses of every C&R permit holder in this state, because manpower costs money, and money is something this state has very little of At the moment. IMO: The enforcement of the 30 day magic period (sort of reminds me of my ex-wife, but I digress) will fall upon the issuing agency, in most cases the local PD, that gets the yellow copy of the PPP after the transaction. The white copy will still go to the NJSP Firearms Unit, but it will take a while (given the lack of cash) before they do anything with it except enter the data into the NJ Handgun Registry. It's been rumored that the Firearms Unit Inspectors are scouring the GSA Schedule looking for a large quantity of proctoscopes for the anticipated load of C&R applications.
great, even more burden on the local departments... they are going to have to start pulling uniforms off the street just to compile these investigations. btw, where is it written that the enforcement falls upon the issuing authority, just curious since i have not seen any specific details on the enforcement on the law, the new amendment, or even that piece of shit task force report. |
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firearms unit is going to be way too busy investigating EVERY used pistol permit returned to them to ensure OGAM compliance to have the time to send a bunch of guys to the houses of every C&R permit holder in this state, because manpower costs money, and money is something this state has very little of At the moment. IMO: The enforcement of the 30 day magic period (sort of reminds me of my ex-wife, but I digress) will fall upon the issuing agency, in most cases the local PD, that gets the yellow copy of the PPP after the transaction. The white copy will still go to the NJSP Firearms Unit, but it will take a while (given the lack of cash) before they do anything with it except enter the data into the NJ Handgun Registry. It's been rumored that the Firearms Unit Inspectors are scouring the GSA Schedule looking for a large quantity of proctoscopes for the anticipated load of C&R applications.
great, even more burden on the local departments... they are going to have to start pulling uniforms off the street just to compile these investigations. btw, where is it written that the enforcement falls upon the issuing authority, just curious since i have not seen any specific details on the enforcement on the law, the new amendment, or even that piece of shit task force report. It's not written anywhere yet. I tend to agree that it will most likely be the responsibility of the issuing authority to verify nobody they issue permits to uses more than one every 30 days. What I want to know is what are they going to do if they discover someone who did use two permits within thirty days? Are they going to get an arrest warrant and kick down his door? It's really a scary thought. |
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It's not written anywhere yet. I tend to agree that it will most likely be the responsibility of the issuing authority to verify nobody they issue permits to uses more than one every 30 days. What I want to know is what are they going to do if they discover someone who did use two permits within thirty days? Are they going to get an arrest warrant and kick down his door? It's really a scary thought. will they also be kicking down the door of the dealer? |
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Just remember, if you have your C&R in this state you will be targeted by the NJSP for unannounced inspections as part of your acceptance of the C&R. I just dumped mine on the advice of Evan Nappen. Has anyone here with a C&R ever had one of these "inspections"? What exactly does it entail? |
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It's not written anywhere yet. I tend to agree that it will most likely be the responsibility of the issuing authority to verify nobody they issue permits to uses more than one every 30 days. What I want to know is what are they going to do if they discover someone who did use two permits within thirty days? Are they going to get an arrest warrant and kick down his door? It's really a scary thought. will they also be kicking down the door of the dealer? Only if the same dealer makes both sales in fewer than 30 calendar days. |
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Just remember, if you have your C&R in this state you will be targeted by the NJSP for unannounced inspections as part of your acceptance of the C&R. I just dumped mine on the advice of Evan Nappen. and for this same reason the application sits incomplete in the original envelope it was mailed to me in. the second thoughts i had over-rided the so-called 'advantages' even under this new legislation. |
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... I tend to agree that it will most likely be the responsibility of the issuing authority to verify nobody they issue permits to uses more than one every 30 days. What I want to know is what are they going to do if they discover someone who did use two permits within thirty days? Are they going to get an arrest warrant and kick down his door? It's really a scary thought. I believe that each PPP holder in a municipality has a "page" in a PPP ledger maintained by the issuing agency. Here in my town, every PPP I have been issued has a pre-printed Control Number in order to account for each 4 part form, along with a typed 6 character Permit Number (next to the Issue Date). In my case, the first 5 characters (1 letter, 4 numbers) Permit Number remain the same, and the final letter increments with each permit issued. (I still have Q and R in hand, valid until 1/2/10) It would only be logical that the Permit Clerk at my local PD is responsible for accounting for each issued permit when the completed copy comes in after the purchase. When the Permit Clerk has multiple permits in his/her possession that indicate less than 30 days between Date(s) of Sale, there is prima facie evidence of a crime, ready for the County Prosecutor. And having just read through the OGAM law, my question now is: WHAT IS THE PENALTY FOR VIOLATING THE OGAM STATUTE? |