Posted: 8/11/2006 12:48:44 AM EDT
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I have used both the A1 and the A2, Not extensively mind you but just enough as to get an idea of them both. The A2 is a very very good weapons system. I think most of the criticism levelled against it come from the A1 and people dont realise that the A1 and A2 are about as alike as Challenger 1 and 2 (which share about 5% of parts. No seriously....). I was in Munster with the Scots Guards and RDG and was issued with an A2. The training area we were in was sandy so as you can imagine sand got everywhere in the weapon. It still didnt miss a beat in about 600 rounds of automatic fire and being used by inexperienced people who had limited experience with automatic weapons. The susat is awesome. I want one. My only complaint having handled the AR15, AUG and G36 is that it is bloody heavy. Having said that, I would rather use it in CQB than an M16 or G36. But you have to ask yourself; If it wasnt the f up it has been to date, would it truly be a British weapon.  Roll on 2010 when (supposedly) the G36 takes its place. |
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Other than picking them up, I've no experience with them. I do have the book 'The Last Enfield' by Steve Raw, which is a great read about the whole SA80 saga. At the end of the book it says that both the Paras and Marines are still unhappy about it's performance anywhere near sand (especially if there are helicopters nearby). The official report said that both units were to blame for it's poor performance by not keeping it clean enough... |
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My experience with the L85A1 is limited to the Regimental internally run conversion course, quallification shoot and one APWT and one 3 week exercise on Soltau. I was well impressed until we went on exercise with it, it shot better than me, as an Armoured corps regiment we all had iron sight's (in 92), which didnt do the SA80 justice. On the exercise we had a few problem's, don't ask for detail's as that was back in 92, and my memory fail's me. Over the year's mate's who were or are still serving kept me up to date with the situation, the worst story that I heard was the (I think it was) some ammo that had been bought that just would'nt work, they had a stoppage every other round, but then again that I didnt experience myself, we had the ROF ammo when I did my shooting with it. Tony |
NATO standardisation.... |
Ok but make sure you get this barrel length version or longer as the CQB (9") version is not so hot . To be fair, as a CQB I don't think it's meant for much past 100m. |
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Stand behind a corner or in a door way and take aimed shots to your right… Or injure your right eye or right hand… There is a very good reason armies teach 'weak shoulder' shooting and the MoD freely admits you cannot shoot an SA80 from your left shoulder. Having a rifle that is now 99% reliable and very accurate is all well and good, (and every Press release I read from MoD constantly harps on about those two things and ignores or gloss's over the other user complaints), but the basic design remains fundamentally flawed as a combat weapon. ANdy |
And also to be fair, the SLR was a long old beast! ANdy |
Not to mention the fact they were all worn out and in dire need of replacing anyway |
Oddly enough, there are still plenty of new unissued UK SLR's about. If you have a Section 5 for one or live in the non-mainland part of the UK, or it's colonies you can still buy them. ANdy |
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With the A1, I had more than one incident where my mag fell out due to the rubbish catch. Other than that, I found it an A1 superb weapons system. I shot for 2 years with the Royal Green Jackets shooting team, competed in deserts in the Ukraine even and it was fine. Really easy to use, easily manageable recoil and the size is just right. I do have mild obsessive compulsive disorder when it comes to cleaning things, and the rifle was no exception, however, I don't know what people are complaining about. |
 Here is a piccy of myself at a SBA stagging on with my SLR, with which I passed my APWT, and even managed to knock a fig. 11 over at 600m. What more could you want from a weapon. A long tough squaddie proof bit of kit, I know I'd much rather do a bayonet charge with the SLR than with an SA80. Tony |
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Toemag, people regularly knock over the 600m fig 11's with the L85. To be honest, most people in the modern army would rather have the SA80 over the SLR due to most modern battles taking place in an Urban environment. Anyone that says 5.56 isnt an effective killing round has obviously never seen what it does when shot into people. There is no place in modern warfare for the SLR. |
I have seen what a .223 can do to deer & foxes that I take on a regular basis, I normally go for neck/head shot's, I also use a .308 for deer & wild boare, which work's just aswell. I prefer to take my game with a .308 as it is faster, by that I mean if you go for a heart lung shot they drop when hit, with very little bruising. With the .223 you have a lot of briused meat and the deer can go quite a way before dropping. What I have just wrote is based on 20 years worth of hunting experience. Back on topic. I don't think that anyone or any one's experience's with the SA80 A1 or A2 could convince me that nearly 3,000 pound's per unit is a fair price, then the weapon is probably going to be the one of the shortest serving GS weapon the the british armed force's ever had. Tony |
Well not really, if there was a place for them then we'd still have some. As I'm sure paul will also be aware of, the vast majority of modern warefare training is based around urban situations these days, simply due to the nature of current engagements. And the SA80, being short, and having light rounds, is a perfect tool for the job. |
Care to explain how a rifle that can't be fired from the left shoulder constitutes a 'perfect tool' for urban combat? |
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I cant ever remember that being an actual practical issue. Ever. What about the M16 A4, same problem there, how many complaints is there about that? Its fashionable to complain about the SA80 series, whereas as some of us just learnt to properly use what we were given. I even wore issue boots, never did buy a pair of Danners. |
| M16 series can be fired from the left shoulder with no probs. SA80 can't. There is no proper/official/practical way of firing from the left shoulder - you have to fire from the right shoulder, and that means not having any cover if you are firing round to your right... |
Oddly enough, the M16 comes with that little moulded in bump thingy behind the ejection port for the express reason of making it fully usable from the left shoulder along with the availability of usefull add-ons like ambi fire selectors and mag catches… I'm presuming that British Army tactics are that you only assault up the left hand side of a street so you can shoot from cover. Because I can't see how you can shoot from cover going up the right hand side… |
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A question to the L85A1 & A2 Generation. How many of you have used, or carried the SLR & the L85A1 or A2 into harms way? I know someone who is still serving and has done three tour's of the gulf recently. I'll drop him an e-mail to get his opinion on the subject. I'll be back with his opinion soonest. Tony edited to add, I have just emailed 3 of my old mate's and asked them the same question. |
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The point i was making, is that how many of the people on the internet that are busy complaining you cant fire it from the left shoulder have ever actually been in a situation whereby they needed to do so, in a training, or combat situation. As I said, I never had that problem, thought never crossed my mind, the only time i can think of where it even come close was training at Lydd Ranges using the street that points out towards the sea and i was on the right hand side of the street in a doorway. I kept having to swivel my body to pop out and hit the target, however i hit it every time, so if it were a real person, he'd be dead anyway, or not firing back all that good. I do seem to remember the thread saying FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE and I was offering that. |
Tony |
That bang on my head is playing havoch with my smelling  Tony |
Dave, I was wishing that I had done much better at school and become a brain surgeon or something else, anything, just not a squaddie. I was actually thinking where the F%"k did that come from, firstly so that I could get out of his line of sight, and once in cover, come up with a cunning plan to snot the barsteward. The L85 is a generall service weapon and as such has to be capable of just that 'GENERALL SERVICE, by all user's in all condition's and in any circumstance's. Don't give up mate, remember the old saying's from training, a winner never quit's and a quitter never win's, no second place on the battle field, you win or you loose, period... I'm not second guessing, I have the experience and want the view's of those who have served using the L85 and the venerable SLR, or if it come's down to it, any other type of rifle be it M16 or the FMAS. We used to patroll covering our arc's that meant alternateing one weapon pointing to the right and one to the left, this was SOP in my day, how do they do that today? On another forum I read about a kid whose eyesight was impaired, just his right eye mind, and he didnt get in because of it, there may be more to that story, but that's what he was selling. Tony |
| Kinda off topic,but now I know where the flak jackets I bought a few years ago where used.Bought em off of the sportsmens guide a few years ago,they said they were US military surplus.I actually like these better,with the rubber nonslip patches on the shoulder,than the US issuie.Had one of about the same era while in the NG,and the outer cover was a little too slick. |
