[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Ozark Armory small rant (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 5/7/2008 7:01:18 PM EDT
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I have exclusively bought my firearms from these guys for 5 years now. I have bought SEVERAL firearms from them without a hitch. I like the guys that work there and like the way they do (no BS) business. Recently though I bought an AR lower and a shotgun online and was going to arrange for Ozark to do the transfers for me. I spoke to some lady over the phone about doing the transfers and she told me I would have to pay Arkansas sales tax on the transferred items. I informed her that I had never had to pay sales tax to the FFL on items I purchased out of state before, but she insisted "that's the way we do it, and that's the way it should be done." Am I just ignorant here? Isn't it up to the consumer to pay those taxes to their state? I feel like this lady was just interested in making extra $$$ from the transfer. The whole thing left a bad taste in my mouth for Ozark. I had Sturm do the transfers for me and didn't get charged taxes on the deal. Anyway straighten me out on this so I can have my information straight. |
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I've had other gun shops try to do the same. I think it's the same principle as if you buy a vehicle out of state. You still have to pay sales tax when you get back to Arkansas. Most gun dealers will charge you $20-$25 for transfers and waive the tax if your a good, repeat customer. You called, they answered and told you what they do. I bet if you went down there, and you are a good customer, they might let it slide. I have yet to find something I want online that they can't get or already have. They transfered my STI 2011 frame with no hassle. FWIW, I've also had gun dealers try to charge me sales tax on a trade for the full amount. Ex: My trade, $500, new gun, $700, difference of $200 PLUS tax. They'd try to charge me tax on the $700, then take off they $500 trade value. It's all in the way they read the law and what their CPA says to do in accordance. I'm sure you talked to Connie and she only says what she's been told to say. |
I had the same problem when trying to transfer an AR15, I bought from an online source. I told her that I have never paid sales tax on any transfer when the gun was purchased online. I did some research and found the following off of Knesek Guns' website and told them about it.
Looks like they are doing something to make some extra money on transfers. I never have even been asked to pay sales tax on the gun by anyone but them. No big deal though since I will never use them for transfers and will not go out of my way to do business with them. That is what is great about our economy, just go somewhere else that will treat you right. |
What did they say after you told them about it? |
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She said she would check into it and call them. I believe she called Knesek and talked to them about it. When she called back, she agreed that Knesek or pretty much any other gun shop does not charge sales tax on the gun itself for a transfer. She stated that that is how they have always done it. I thanked her for her time and had the gun transferred into The Tackle Box in Fort Smith. I have had several guns transferred there and it only cost $15. No hassle and I am in and out very quickly. I would really like to know the truth if they are allowed to charge sales tax. It seems like that they are charging sales tax as a deterrant so people will just buy the gun through them. I am not sure if that is the real reason behind it or not. I always thought the whole point of buying something on the internet was to avoid sales tax as long as the company does not have a store/buidling in your state. I will say that the lady I talked to was very polite about it all but I won't transfer a gun through them ever. I live in Fayetteville so finding a local place to transfer would have been nice. I will also say I tried transferring the gun through Ozark Sportsman. I called and asked if they could transfer a gun. Guy said yeah, come in when I could, and did not say anything else. I take the time to drive out there. Give the guy the information and he says he will be right back after getting it taken care of. Guy comes back and asks if the gun is new or used. I tell him it is new. He said that they did not transfer new guns that they could sale to me themselves. I told him I already paid for the gun and just needed the transfer. He said sorry. I told him to give me the sheet of paper back with the information on it and have not been back since. I would have been fine with no transfers from them if they would have been up front about it on the phone or asked if it was new or used. They said yeah no problems and to come in whenever. When I take the time to drive up there, it was like they wanted to try and sell me a gun from their store. I was not too happy about that. |
| the sales tax pitch might be to get you to buy from them. Don't know. Next time, try Arkansas Outdoor Supply in Siloam Springs. He'll prolly transfer it with no hassle. Plus, you should be able to check local FFL's in your town. There's a few in Springdale that work out of there home. Check gunsamerica in the FFL search. |
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This is Bill Adams or the Ozark Armory. I would like to address some the comments made yesterday and the day before about slaes tax on gun sales tax on gun transfers. First to ISED8U, call the Arkansas Dept of Finance and Administration (501-682-7104), ask for sales tax division and explain to them about transferring a gun and how it must go through an FFL holder for it to be legal. I have, several times, and have always been told that since you cannot buy the gun out of state or through the mail, that technically you are purchasing it from the local FFL holder and are required to pay sales tax. That's the law according to the Dept of Finance and Administration. We don't keep the sales tax, it goes to the State of Arkansas! I would rather my customer have the money than the State, but am not prepared to risk problems with the Tax Commission, so someone else can beat the State out of money that the State says they owe. I didn't make law, don't really agree with it, but will abide by it---it's the law. If Steve Sturm or anyone else doesn't want to collect the sales tax, that's OK with me---they probably will never have a problem, but if audited, they will be liable for the Taxes (not the customer)---a chance I am not willing to take to save someone else a few dollars. Sorry about the "bad taste" in your mouth but we do it the way we have been told is legal. |
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Just continuing to address the comments. This is for 20aegti. How does it look up there---I mean besides being dark and smelly? If you think I need the money so bad that I beat customers out of sales tax, you don't know me. Our sales tax "contribution " last month was over $14,000.00. The few dollars the state charges on the above mentioned transfer would not change my life by keeping it, except for the worse (I would be a thief)! Understand? For DreadfulHillbilly. I have sold guns for 35 years and have come to realize that there are some people that you could pay for their gun, pay to have it shipped, do the transfer for free, give them a box of ammo, kiss their butt and tuck them into bed and they would still whine and be "underwhelmed"!! |
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continuing.... Thanks for listening. We try to treat our customers right, but will do what we are told is legal. We don't need problems with the Tax Commission, the ATF, or anyone else that cause the "Gun Comminity" trouble. Gun owners have enough people looking down their noses at them without causing more of it to save a dollar. Thanks |
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I believe it is the responsibility of the purchaser to pay sales tax on the item, not the responsibility of the transferring FFL to collect it. Same deal with purchasing an automobile. It is not the responsibility of the dealership to collect tax - they will collect it, but they don't have to. The consumer must pay the tax. it is his choice to not pay it and he is ultimately responsible - the Tax Commission may see it differently though. I don't see how the Tax Commission could hold the transferring facility responsible - the money for the firearm never moved through their place of business. The tax loophole does not just effect gun transfers - virtually everything you purchase online or mail order costs local, state and federal governments millions of dollars if not more every year - I wonder how much longer it will last. As far as Ozark Armory, there is nothing wrong with him protecting his ability to conduct business - it may effect how many transfers he is doing, but there is not much $ in transfers. I use a local FFL that charges the flat fee for transfers and leaves the tax responsibility to me. |
Easy now. Have a cup of coffee and contemplate the "catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" philosophy. I didn't mean any of my comments in a mean-spirited way. As a consumer, perception appears to be reality. If I walk into a place three times and the staff seems unhelpful and disinterested then it makes a little footnote in my mind. If that place comes up in conversation then I will probably throw in my 2 cents worth. You probably do the same, say with restaurants for example. I have bought three firearms in the last 90 days at Sportsman's Warehouse in Rogers. Did I get the best price? Probably not. But they bent over backwards to give great customer service including playing phone tag with distributors to try to do a special order for me. You may have so much business that you don't feel you need to improve customer service. If so, more power to you. However your response surprised me a bit in that I would have expected something more like: "Hillbilly, I'm sorry your first impressions haven't been that great. We make an effort to maintain knowledgeable and helpful staff. Stop by again sometime and I'm positive you will be pleased with the experience." Does that sound like you are sucking it up? Yes, but that is the retail biz. Having replied in that manner, if I were you (I know, I know hen Does it sound like I am beating on you? I'm not, I'm actually trying to be helpful. Online forums can be a great tool for a vendor or retailer but they are sword that cuts both ways. |
LOL!! |
| I honestly don't think anyone in N.W. AR has been in my place 3 times and been ignored ! You may come in and not be greeted if we are "covered up" but you will be waited on as soon as possible. We don't ignore anyone. Are you sure you don't have us mixed up with another Ozark titled business? |
Bill... IMO you've got the best gun shop within 200 miles of Springdale and it's always a pleasure driving a few miles from Joplin to do business with you and your staff. I've always found them extremely helpful and courteous. Your prices are fair and your selection is awesome to say the least. Definitely keep doing what you do so well! 
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| +1 for Bill and Ozark Armory. I have been going into his shop for over 5 years and have probably bought 2 guns from him the entire time. I window shop there quite a bit, but a buddy of mine has an ffl and gets me everything at cost. Bill and his guys know that I buy from my buddy, but still they cater to me and are ALWAYS happy to show me whatever I want. They are down to earth cool guys in my opinion. I don't know of a better gunshop around NWA. |
Wow!! Way to put words in people's mouth and really represent your business well!! First, I did not say you beat your customers out of sales tax. I stated my experience with trying to transfer a gun that I purchased on the internet through your shop. The answer of "that is the way we have always done it" does not explain jack crap to any customer on why you are the only shop that most know of that actually charges sales tax. Maybe you should inform your employees more so they can better explain the situation behind you charging sales tax. If you don't like people stating experiences with your shop and you cannot give your side without name calling and being defensive then maybe you should have let someone else post a reply. I did not attack you and only stated my experience and the fact I will not do business through your shop on transfers. Now you can thank your super-duper professional replies on me not doing any business and will make sure not to recommend you to anyone I know. Since you obviously seem to make so much money, I am sure this will not phase you one bit. Others like to throw around how any purchases they have made and what so I will join the crowd. Over the last three months, I have spent over $6000 on a KAC suppressor, LMT MRP upper, Precision AR15 upper, and a Nigthforce NXS scope. Maybe, if the transaction on the transfer was explained better and handled differently then some of that could have possibly been spent in your shop but I see now you are rolling in dough enough that it would not matter. |
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Here's where you accuse or imply wrongful doing. He stated why he is charging sales tax on transferred firearms. Uncle Sam always gets his off the top, and I do not blame them or any gun dealer doing what the taxman has told them. Your 20 bucks isn't worth it. Last question, Who is going to do all these super cheap internet sales when the FFLs go out of business just doing transfers? |
I see it as this; We can sit here and blame McDonalds and throw a fit at the drive thru. We can get mad over something not being on sale anymore. The people we come in contact with at retail establishments are trained that "The Customer is always right." I see this as true in most cases. However, If you were talking about MY business that took blood and sweat to build, I would take it personal. Hell, anything I'm involved in I'd take personal too. I have bought from OA for years now, and will not visit any other gunshop in our area. sarge's buddy is also a friend of mine. We have done alot of business together also. Hell, there's a place in Springdale (nameless) that will squeeze that last penny out of you for whatever reason. I bet they still have guns in stock they had ten years ago. He took what everyone has said to heart, as I would also, so think about what you'd say in his position. This has not changed my mind about what Ozark Armory is or if I'll ever go there again. He stands by the Arkansas State Law that has dictated him on what to do. You cannot argue that. Did anybody call the number he left?? |
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I'll butt in just long enough to say a few things: Bill @ Ozark Armory - I respect you coming in here to share your case and defend yourself, but do keep it a bit more respectful and professional from here on out. That goes for everybody else too. Everyone else - The Sales Tax division is not to be taken lightly. If they say Bill needs to collect sales tax on stuff, well, he really needs to. I've seen them destroy businesses before on stuff like this. A better use of our time may be working on who to talk to to get this sales tax problem fixed.... |
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I hate long replies so I guess I'm going to "hate myself in the morning"... If you filed your state taxes via TurboTax you probably saw and glossed over as I did a state use tax form relating to out of state purchases via internet. From what I have read there is still much vagary in current regulations. I see that in 2001 AR passed a bill that got close to the issue but was pre-empted by a federal moratorium on internet taxation passed in 1998. See below a portion of an article from Arkansas News Bureau article in July of 2007. Bottom line, I think that both we the customers and the retailers have ample ground to be confused. The one thing that is certain is that state governments everywhere are working to close loop holes that let us buy goods and not pay sales taxes. Arkansas's version is a "consumer use tax." I apologize for the length. You can read the entire article here - http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2007/07/29/News/342888.html Taxing Internet usage In 1998, Congress passed a federal moratorium on taxing Internet usage to protect Web surfers, businesses, shoppers, students, researchers and others from having to pay fees every time they access Internet. Congress extended the moratorium in 2003 and 2004. The current moratorium is set to expire Nov. 1. U.S. Reps. Marion Berry and Mike Ross, both D-Ark., have signed on as co-sponsors of House Resolution 743, the proposed Permanent Internet Tax Freedom Act of 2007. "This moratorium will continue to encourage the growth of affordable Internet access," Berry said last week in a statement released by his office. "Maintaining the growth of this infrastructure will help rural areas attract new businesses and jobs, which will help economic development and keep cost low for consumers." Theis said the concern with taxing Internet usage is the definition of Internet access. The definition before Congress would potentially allow bundled items to be exempted from taxation if they are bundled with Internet access, he said. "Those bundled items could be things Arkansas currently collects tax on, for example telephone service. If telephone service is bundled with Internet access, there is a very good argument ... that states would not be able to tax telephone service if it's bundled with Internet access," Theis said. "This is an issue the states are asking Congress, 'please, if you feel like the moratorium needs to be extended, fine, then extend the moratorium,'" Theis said. "But don't allow companies to take what is currently a taxable event and bundle it with Internet access and turn it into a non-taxable transaction." Theis and Atchley said if the moratorium is lifted, it would be up to the Legislature to decide whether to levy a tax or fee on Internet usage. U.S. Sen. Mark Pryor, D-Ark., said the moratorium "has helped Internet entrepreneurs succeed and expanded shopping opportunities for consumers throughout Arkansas." But with the moratorium expiring Nov. 1, Pryor said it was time to take a fresh look at how new fees or taxes imposed by state or local governments could affect commerce, consumers, broadband deployment and state revenues. DeCample said Beebe is aware of the issue but has not taken a position. |
| To cajunboy- paying the sales tax can't be left up to the purchaser , if it was no one would pay it , I wouldn't. When you buy an automobile you have to pay any sales tax due when you tag it (again, the Dept of Finance and administration) and you have to get that license plate to be legal. It's not left up to the purchaser. Next time at Wal-Mart tell the checkout girl that you"ll pay the sales tax later. Again guys, I don't like collecting taxes for the State and I don't like sending it to them, but I'm telling you from experience I don't want to give them reason to cause me, my family, my business, or anyone else problems, it ain't worth it and you can't beat them in the long run. |
| To Cowboy7242001: Disrespectfull ? I guess so and apologize to anyone offended, BUT I can't be accused of charging sales tax so I can keep it for myself and be expected to drop my head and accept it, it won't happen. Again sorry to have ruffled feathers but this my livelihood, not a hobby, passtime, or game. |
First, I will apologize to Bill for implying he was charging sales tax to make some money but that was the only logical answer I could come up with based on the explanation I received from Ozark Armory staff. However, his responses were greatly unprofessional and definitely could have been handled differently. I do not own a gun store so I am not up to date on all things gun shops. However, I am an Electrical Engineer and am always faced with constantly explaining the design and cost to clients. Sometimes the design put together did not exactly match what the client was thinking and costs more. Does it mean that the design is wrong and was padded to make it more expensive? No, it means the client is not always aware of all the local/state/federal codes, requirements and laws that can greatly impact the bottom line price. It is up to me to explain exactly what specifically impacted the design and cost, and to do so in a professional manner. If I responded to clients that had questions about the design in the same manner Bill responded to this topic, then you can bet I would not be employeed or that client would find someone else. So I more than understand that customers/clients can and will talk about your business, both good and bad. It is up to you to determine how you handle yourself and how you respond to those situations. If he would put as much effort into training his employees on exactly why they charge sales tax on transfers like he did on defending his business, then this whole situation could have been avoided. Giving your customers the information they need about how you conduct business is not up to the customer to research and find out. It would have been very easy for the lady on the phone to explain the situation or let someone else explain the sales tax. That is why I specifically asked the question and gave the information to Knesek's website and contact information. Even after verifying that info, the explanation of "that is the way we always have done it" was all I got. It is interesting he is saying that he is required to charge sales tax and Knesek guns specifically states very openly that it is not required and that gun shops doing the transfer cannot charge sales tax. It seems that most gun shops are either breaking Arkansas tax laws and the state does not seem to care or someone got some bad information along the way. I will call the number on Monday to see exactly what they say and make sure the question is directly pointed to internet purchases. |
| I'm not taking anyones side here, but I would like to point out that if you call the AR Dept. of Finance, and ask them any question about collecting tax, they are gonna tell you to collect it. That is their standard response. Trust me. It's a little bit like dealing with the ATF, they may not know exactly what the law says, but they'll wing it, and it'll be to your detriment. |
The problem I have here is any way you look at it I or any one else doing a transfer through you or any other FFL they are not buying a firearm from you. No if ans or buts about it. I am only paying you for a service that is required by Federal law for all interstate firearms transfers. You at no time purchased an item to sell. You are only involved to perform the transfer. The argument here that you and the first line person at the DFA are using would be saying that if I ordered an item from any on line store that it would be up to UPS to collect sales tax on that item when it was delivered to me. I think that you might want to call the DFA and talk to someone with more in depth knowledge of the Arkansas Tax code. |
Thanks for the reply Bill. FTR I'm not trying to smear Ozark Armory's good name here. My post was only to inquire about the facts that I couldn't find myself. Though I'm still not sure your information about tha tax code is correct, I can't say that with any certainty because I'm no expert. I don't believe you or your staff are "curbing" any monies collected on purchased or transfers as taxes. I apologize if I suggested that in some way. You can inagine how it looked to me when other FFLs didn't charge me sales tax though. As I stated I like the way you do business there, but I won't be using you guys for transfers when it seems everybody else will do the transfer without charging me taxes on the merchandise. Best. eta: Thanks for posting the number to the DFA. Tomorrow is my day off and I will sure call them to clear the matter up for myself. |
Ozark Armory said:
Really? How did it end up in your store then? Federal firearms laws clearly state that a gun can be purchased from ANY state to have it transferred (i.e. not sold, not taxed) through an FFL holder. Arkansas Dept of Finance has NO understanding of BATFE regulations and when asked whether ANY item is taxable, they always default with "yes" unless it's obvious to them that it should be "no." Again, you didn't sell the product, you didn't stock the product, you didn't make a profit margin on the product. You sold a federally mandated service. Nothing more. If all of your competitors are not collecting sales tax on transfers and have been in business for quite some time without problems arising during audits, then I'd say that the business who is collecting sales tax on an item they didn't legally sell is the one in error. |
I think what he's trying to say is this; An individual cannot do a complete firearm transaction (like a handgun) out of state. True, right? It has to go from FFL to an FFL in your state to be legal. You can purchase it over the net, telephone whatever, but if you drive there and pick it up or have it shipped to your home, you've broken the law. What the TC is saying, is since you cannot legally purchase it without an FFL in YOUR state, you must pay tax, like buying it in-state. |
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I am new here and this is my first post, but I am excited about hearing the outcome of this. I have only done one transfer from out of state to a pawn shop and I only had to pay the $20 transfer fee. Everything else I have bought locally. I do however shop around and have bought from just about everyone. I do like Ozark Armory, Sportsmans whorehouse and Ozark sportsmans supply. I get good answers and help from all of them. I even feel at times that the employees at these places tell me info that they shouldn't, but this just helps me make a more informed purchase. Sorry to go off of topic, but I am happy with the local shops. |
| I would .like to see this resolved aswell, and if you should collect taxes form out of state purchases. Anyways I think Ozark Armory is a great store and they have more selection than anyone else. But my only problem is they aren't willing to haggle at all on their used guns. That just seems a little weird to me. |
Um, ok.. So I can tell you I paid $1.00 for the item and you can tax me on that $1.00. How do you know what the customer pays and what to collect? |
| This is Rona from the Ozark Armory. I would like to explain to everyone how we do a transfer. The customer gets in touch with us about a transfer, I get the telephone number and the customers info, I call the person with the gun, to make sure we can fax our FFL and to make sure they send us the proper paperwork. And I call the customer back to let them know that I followed up. The paper work has to include their FFL, the name of the person getting the gun, AND an invoice that has what the person is paying for the gun. If you have a trade-in, the balance is what is taxed, just like in our store, we collect taxes on the amount after the trade-in value is deducted. We also make sure that you are aware of the taxes that will have to be paid. We tell you, whatever the invoice says, that is what you will have to pay taxes on. We go by what the invoice says, if it is a $1.00 then you pay taxes on a $1.00, if the invoice says $100.00 then that is what you will pay taxes on. After we get the gun in the store, you are notified, and the gun is logged in, then you can fill out the paper work. Then we do all of the paperwork, of selling a gun. We HAVE to keep records of where the gun came from and where it goes. It is transferred to us, and is a part of our daily business. My point is, there is a lot more to a transfer than I guess anyone realizes. Ultimately, we are the one that is responsible for making sure the sale is legal. |
I think the point asknight brought up is extremely valid. Ozark Armory seems to be the only gun shop most people know about that charges sales tax on transfers. Ozark Armory is not the one selling the rifle, they are the ones processing the paperwork to make sure the sale is legal by running the background check. Ozark Armory is not the one "selling" the gun to anyone. The only money that changes hands is the transfer fee plus the sales tax that only Ozark Armory collects. I think it has been established that Ozark Armory is doing what you all were told was the legal thing to do. No one is faulting Ozark Armory for that necessarily but do not agree with or like to pay charges that no one else charges. However, it has been brought up that the tax department's default answer is charge tax even when they do not know the answer according to what the tax law states. I am going to go out on a limb and say that pretty much 99% of the gun shops in this state are not doing anything illegal by not collecting taxes on transfers and that Ozark Armory probably got a default answer of charge tax. Now if someone buys a gun in your shop then they should be paying sales tax since it was an in-state, in-store purchase. |
The purchase of the gun? Of course cause I pay you the purchase price of the gun again when I order it directly from a manufacturer and pay them via a credit card? No!!!! I am paying you for a service of handling the transfer. When I order something from over the internet or by phone, I don't pay sales tax unless that business has a shop setup in my state. I don't pay UPS or Fedex the sales tax when they deliver it at my house do I? No!!! Same principle! I have purchased several guns over the internet and other than the transfer fee no money went to the dealer. I did not purchase the gun from the dealer so it is not in-state or in-store. He performed the transfer (a service and usually non-taxed) and processed the paperwork. The paperwork is required to make sure I am not a criminal trying to bypass the system by ordering over the internet or phone. If the background check was not required, every gun shop would probably be out of business since everyone could directly order from the manufacturer and save even more money. I could go get my own FFL so I could receive the guns I order and have shipped to my house. Still would not be paying sales tax. |
Totally unnecessary. You only have to provide a copy of your FFL to the BUYER to send to the SELLER.
You can't find that regulation in writing ANYWHERE. That is total BS and is a regulation that Ozark Armory made up on their own.
That's where you're unnecessarily complicating the transaction. A trade-in is a transaction between you and the customer, a transfer is only "facilitating the transaction between two individuals."
So everyone could just submit an invoice for $0.00 since it's none of Ozark Armory's business what the individual paid for the gun, since Ozark Armory didn't sell it. There are no regulations broken by telling the transferring dealer a lie about what you actually paid for a gun.
No, you do all of the paperwork, of TRANSFERRING a gun. You're not selling anything.
Indeed. The invoice is NOT required, and none of your business.
Uh, woah there. I've done many transfers. When you're the only one in the state operating like you are, and claim that everyone else doesn't know what they're doing (which you just did), you are the one in error.
Of course, and that only consists of a 4473 and NICS check. Nothing more. |
ETA, It's obvious to me (I deal with the DFA all the time, I help run 2 businesses) that the owners and managers of OA are lucky to still be in business since they obviously don't understand the most basic principles of what they do. I'd been hearing great things about them for a long time, but I won't be involved with a company that is breaking the law, especially since the ATF hates us all anyway. I have a feeling OA is going to be the next CAVARMS, and I'm going to laugh when it happens. Screwing customers by lying is the dirtiest thing a business can do. |
WHAT, Wow? I have been a loyal customer for over four years now, we were in the day we found out my wife was pregnant, we were in a few days after our son was born and Rick has watched him grow on and off over these last few years. I admit that I am not able to purchase as many firearms as I would like but seven of my last eight have come from you. I sold a PSS to a guy in Virginia and the store I was shipping it to asked me to provide them with a copy YOUR ffl since they really wanted me to ship from another business. When I inquired about it I was told in a very nice way that they had no right or reason to have it and that they were not getting it, I ended up shipping the firearm myself from UPS without a problem. Has your stance on this changed since the move or were you yanking my chain then or now? Omni |
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