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Posted: 11/27/2005 10:03:38 PM EDT
Here is a letter intended for HPD regarding some AK pistol I'd intend to make. Do they even reply to letter like the BATF does. I know BATF in VA take 3 month for a reply but they do give a written reply.
They deal with the Fed regs not local. so does HPD or the Attorney General do the same?

Records and Identification Division, Firearms Section
801 South Beretania Street Honolulu, Hawaii 96813
re: Assault Pistol with Permanently Attached Magazine

This letter is in regards to the transfer, possession, assembly, or acquiring of an UZI, AR15, AK, MAC10, etc (styled pistol) with either a permanently attached magazine or a none semiautomatic Pistol; but does not constitute an AOW under BATF.
Construction of said firearms shall either have a pinned or welded magazine permanently attached to the receiver or magazine well. Also, said firearms may also be constructed, modified into a single shot, bolt action, or pump action pistol; which does not use the energy of a fixed cartridge to extract and chamber a fresh cartridge.
Since these firearms are modified and do not have a detachable magazine or in semiautomatic mode of operation as mention in HRS134-1, the following six subsections shall not apply to the State of Hawaii’s definition of an “Assault Pistol”. Thus an “Assault styled Pistol” may still be attained within the State if any of the two main (semiautomatic, detachable) criteria are not meet.

HRS 134-1
"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more
of the following characteristics:
(1) An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
(2) A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
(3) A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold
the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
(4) A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
(5) A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or
(6) It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;

In regards, to affixing a permanently attached magazine device to the above mentioned pistols. A magazine holding more than ten rounds may be used in the construction since HRS134-8(c) specially states a “detachable ammunition magazine” i.e.: 75 round drums and 30 rounds rifle magazines may be permanently attached to a pistol.

HRS 134-8(c)
The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. This subsection shall not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.

All other NFA, BATF and Federal Regulation shall also apply. This will be a future project, reply requested.

Sincerely,
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 1:22:21 AM EDT
Hate to say this... but, good luck. If you get any response at all I will consider you lucky.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 1:48:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2005 1:51:58 PM EDT by SUKA]
BATF Tech Branch in VA is very good at responding to questions in a timely manner. They are the ones enforcing the Federal firearm laws and has an obligation to explain then. HPD and the State AG Office enforces the State laws and should also be obligated to respond to its citizens questions.

My guess no one officially what to admit that it is Legal to make one.

darealickt:
Can you run this question to some of the HPD and BATF dudes that hang around the store. I'd like to hear some Unofficial opinions.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 6:35:34 PM EDT
I came up with a great idea for the gunshops on island today, since Ive been thinking about the proposed 50 cal ban in the future. Ronnie Barrett no longer services any California le agency due to their ban on civilian ownership of .50 cals, why not follow in his footsteps a bit more. Since Citizens cannot use or possess high capacity pistol magazines or assault pistols, why not restrict the le agencies also? If the vendors that we give our hard earned cash to buy our own firearms and accessories actually agreed to something like this I have a feeling we would have a chance at getting high cap pistol mags legal for everyone on island, not just military/leo. I really wish the gun industry as a whole would do something like this, restrict the le agencies to the same level that the Citizens are restricted to, and discontinue selling to retailers who are caught selling these restricted items to the agencies.
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 8:46:25 PM EDT
I had heard that "technically" LEO's were restricted to 10rnd mags too. The way the law was written had no provisions for LEO's to be excluded from the mag cap. Thats what I heard at the range at least. Anyone know anything about that?
Link Posted: 11/28/2005 9:53:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/28/2005 9:54:08 PM EDT by darealickt]

Originally Posted By falconfire:
I had heard that "technically" LEO's were restricted to 10rnd mags too. The way the law was written had no provisions for LEO's to be excluded from the mag cap. Thats what I heard at the range at least. Anyone know anything about that?


At Magnum, we stock hi-cap pistol mags which we sell to HPD, sheriffs, Fed agencies, etc. The military sometimes buys hi-cap Beretta mags from us with company letterhead signed by the CO.

Also, a couple of months ago I delivered a case of 200 S&W 5906 15 round mags to HPD receiving.

Link Posted: 11/28/2005 11:34:06 PM EDT
I know they have them(hi cap mags), but the law says hi cap mags are illegal. It doesnt say they are illegal for everyone except cops.
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 12:20:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By falconfire:
I know they have them(hi cap mags), but the law says hi cap mags are illegal. It doesnt say they are illegal for everyone except cops.



I believe they are for agency use only, not intended to be sold privately to officers. Technically, they should be using a letterhead from HPD if the military is using a letterhead. I just use a fax of my military ID if I am ever asked for proof, most of the time they just take my word for it but Im dealing with people out of state.
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 9:33:28 AM EDT
If a lawsuit was filed HPD will be liable for the high cap mags. No where in HRS 134 are LEO/ dealers exempt from the law. The wording made no provisions for anyone to have high cap pistol mags, regardless. Even dealer are not allowed to manufacture or have possesion of them ( same as the 1994 Klinton Crime bill ). The Military on Federal property are exempt from any local laws.
It was a badly written law from the start by poorly informed liberal lawmakers.


I still see a permenatly attached 75 rd drum on an bolt action AK pistol perferctly legal to have and make in Hawaii. Just bought another Yugo kit to make the conversion. Sure gonna turn a few heads at the koko head pistol range.
Link Posted: 11/29/2005 9:51:58 AM EDT
new BATF open letter.

ATF Letter
Link Posted: 12/3/2005 11:47:52 PM EDT
I wrote a letter to the AG Office and hopefully get an Official reply.

They did reply UNOFFICIALLY
But I cant qoute, copy or post the letter as Stated on the reply.
It was a really vague answer.
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 6:20:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/4/2005 6:21:33 PM EDT by HI5-0]

Originally Posted By SUKA:
If a lawsuit was filed HPD will be liable for the high cap mags. No where in HRS 134 are LEO/ dealers exempt from the law. The wording made no provisions for anyone to have high cap pistol mags, regardless. Even dealer are not allowed to manufacture or have possesion of them ( same as the 1994 Klinton Crime bill ). The Military on Federal property are exempt from any local laws.
It was a badly written law from the start by poorly informed liberal lawmakers.


I still see a permenatly attached 75 rd drum on an bolt action AK pistol perferctly legal to have and make in Hawaii. Just bought another Yugo kit to make the conversion. Sure gonna turn a few heads at the koko head pistol range.



Suka,

There are exemptions to HRS 134-8.

Read HRS 134-11. Exemptions

LEO are exempt from HRS 134-8 under 134-11(a)(1) as long as they are not convicted of abuse of a family and household member (709-906).

Link Posted: 12/4/2005 6:42:34 PM EDT
i'll go read further down the list..
Link Posted: 12/14/2005 12:58:47 PM EDT
letter sent to the Attorney Generals Office I did get a response and they are doing a review.

AG Office
Construction of an AK-47 typed Pistol , Uzi Pistol

This letter is to describe the process of manufacturing an AK-47 typed Pistol and Uzi Pistol. Said firearm will be constructed to all BATF, NFA, and Federal laws but with certain modification which falls outside the definition of "assault pistol" as contained in H.R.S. Section 134-1.

Definitions:
Bolt Action - a manual action by the operator to manipulate the firearms bolt by a lever or knob to load, eject, chamber a new round from the breech.

Semiautomatic- means the mode of operation by which a firearm uses the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to extract a fired cartridge and chamber a fresh cartridge with each single pull of a trigger.

AOW- "The term "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."
This also includes such items as pen guns and the like. The ATF has made the decision that a handgun with more than one grip is an AOW based on the gun a) being concealable and b) not meeting the definition of a "pistol" in the regulations promulgated under the NFA, since they say a pistol has a single grip at an angle to the bore. However, at least one federal court has decided that if the grip is added later, the gun is not "originally designed" to be fired by holding in more than one grip, and thus putting a second grip on a pistol does not make it an AOW.

The AK47 Pistol shall have a barrel length of about 10 inches, but not more than 16 inches. The Gas Port on the barrel and Gas Piston on the Bolt Carrier shall be removed. This process makes the AK47 unable to function in a "Semiautomatic" mode as mentioned in HRS134-1. Ammunition feeding and operation must be made by a manual process via "Bolt Action". There shall be no Stock attached to the Pistol or a Foregrip ( but not to be mistaken for a Handguard under BATF ) attached as not to constitute an AOW. The Pistol shall also have a "non detachable" high capacity ammution storage device (which holds more than 10 rounds) permanently fixed and attached to the Pistol Receiver. A legal high capacity Rifle magazine will be permantaly attached by several tack welds, which makes it impossible to remove without destroying the Pistol receiver. As a Bolt Action Pistol was never mentioned in two main criteria of an "Assault Pistol" under HRS134-1.

The Uzi typed Pistol with a 5 inch barrel shall remain a semiautomatic operation firearm unmodified except with a ammunition storage device that holds more than ten rounds which is "non detachable". This shall have (disassembled magazine parts) from a 25 round Magazine Body permanently pinned, riveted , and welded to the Pistols Magazine Well , then reassemble to a functional storage device as not to violate HRS 134-8c. Nothing more shall be modified on this Uzi Pistol. Non detachable magazines were never mentioned in the two main criterias of an "Assault Pistol" under HRS134-1 or HRS134-8c.

Sincerely
Link Posted: 12/25/2005 1:40:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/25/2005 5:42:46 PM EDT by SUKA]
On another note:
just to add to the review and interpretation process to HRS134 . I was also doing a little more reserch into this topic:

134-4(e): Assault Pistol (AP)

Does not state or mention "assmbly, make, or manufacture" .....only the wording "bring or cause to be brought into the State an assault pistol.".. By this it states a complete AP firearm and not its parts or components of an AP as regulated by BATF (18 U.S.C. chapter 44) and HRS 134
thus a "Assult Pistol" completely Made within the State of Hawaii from scartch materials or other unregulated parts does not violate this law.

The wording "sold or transfered" does not omit one from Possesion once it is manufactured within the State..
As Grandfathered AP are still legal to own in the State of Hawaii.

134-4
e) After July 1, 1992, no person shall bring or cause to be brought into the State an assault pistol. No assault pistol may be sold or transferred on or after July 1, 1992, to anyone within the State other than to a dealer licensed under section 134-32 or the chief of police of any county except that any person who obtains title by bequest or intestate succession to an assault pistol registered within the State shall, within ninety days, render the weapon permanently inoperable, sell or transfer the weapon to a licensed dealer or the chief of police of any county, or remove the weapon from the State. [L 1988, c 275, pt of §2; am L 1992, c 286, §2]

Link Posted: 12/25/2005 10:53:09 PM EDT
If the last post is true, then your only restriction will be to use 10 round magazines with your "assault pistol." Im still letting you test the waters with this one.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 10:55:31 AM EDT
I've asked a Lawyer (dude) practicing outside of Hawaii and from what is written in HRS 134-4(e).
He agrees with me on the "wording". "bring or cause to be brought into" does not mean manufacture in any dictionary.
I would like to challenge this Law with legal representation without being charged. Does HRA offer Legal assistance? Love to take this to the Supreme Court if anyone does Pro Bono.

I'm sure if it was know to everyone that the "wording";
it is legal to manufacture a AP WITHIN the State of Hawaii.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:14:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 4:30:11 PM EDT by SUKA]
Intresting you brought that up.
HRS only applies to " engage in the Business to SELL and manufacture firearms ....either at wholesale or retail"
As ATF exempts FEAT ( Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax ) for "personal use"
under 26 U.S.C. 4181
"There is hereby imposed upon the sale by the manufacturer,
producer, or importer of the following articles a tax equivalent to
the specified percent of the price for which so sold"

Individual States do not collect TAX on behalf of the ATF. 27 CFR Part 53


As Stated in HRS 134-31
License to sell and manufacture firearms; fee. Any person desiring to engage in the business to sell and manufacture firearms for sale in the State either at wholesale or retail, shall annually file an application for a license therefor with the director of finance of each county of the State. The annual fee for the issuance of such license shall be $10 and shall be payable to said director of finance. A license issued hereunder shall expire on June 30 next following the date of issuance of the license unless sooner terminated. Application for renewal of license shall be filed on or before June 30 of each year.
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 4:40:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/29/2005 4:42:33 PM EDT by SUKA]
As the HRA is trying to pass the "SHALL ISSUE" CCW and a repeal of the 10rd pistol mag law.
I do see lawmaker , HPD, AG pluging up this hole now that I have mentioned it.
It may be attached as a RIDER on some other bill....
"HRA beware of RIDERS"

But I do see this as a bargining chip to ammend this AP hole with passage of CCW and 10 rd mags.

I'd called a few PD in HI and all have said "AP are Illegal" not much surprise as they refused to look up HRS.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 8:00:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2005 8:13:18 AM EDT by SUKA]
Their must be alot of lurker viewing this thread but not posting.

I has jumped from 250 , a few days past to 378 today 12/31.

I had a second opinion from another Lawyer Bar'd Hawaii over the Phone "free counsultation".
As far as he said orally, "does not violate THIS law" . but did not want to represent me on this case.
the call lasted x min. with only referance to HRS 134-4(e).

Now will the DA prosecute or drop the case?
I feel they will go after any other tech'alty they can dig up. but a manf'ct AP case will not hold.
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 11:41:09 AM EDT
I bet if a bunch of people made noise over this you would get farther in the courtroom. I dont think youd win though, better off taking it to the lawmakers.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:23:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SUKA:
Their must be alot of lurker viewing this thread but not posting.
hr


Howzit
I was linked here.

I feel sorry for all you gun lovers in HI. I was born and raised in HI. It was a great place to live, I miss many things but i had that machine gun craving.
I left in 1986 and never looked back. I grew up with the "Reasonable" HI laws and did not know any better. Now I know what a bunch of crap those local laws are. I used to go shooting in the abandoned cane fields of Mililani with my HK93 having a blast camping out and shooting the hell out of the place.
For those of you that really love shooting the "Black" guns the Mainland is the only place to be.
Not only can I own machine guns and silencers but I can afford a house :) If you don't want to move then at lease visit Las Vegas to shoot the cool toys.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:03:38 AM EDT
Hi Ya,
Where did they link you from? Where thier any other comments given?

Mililani, Wapio, Waihiawa Pineapple and Cane feilds were excellent places to shoot, even though it was Private land and still illegal. Alway watched out for the HPD Chopper. The Liberal goverment in Hawaii needs to be voted out, However, HPD is solely responsible for suggesting and pushing any new Legislation.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 8:36:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SUKA:
Hi Ya,
Where did they link you from? Where thier any other comments given?

Mililani, Wapio, Waihiawa Pineapple and Cane feilds were excellent places to shoot, even though it was Private land and still illegal. Alway watched out for the HPD Chopper. The Liberal goverment in Hawaii needs to be voted out, However, HPD is solely responsible for suggesting and pushing any new Legislation.



Ive thought about shooting in a couple places like that, too scared to have someone hear me and throw a fit. Would be nice to have a place 5 minutes from home to shoot.
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