Posted: 2/14/2015 5:44:55 PM EDT
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Sorry if this isn't kosher, but I didn't know if everyone was aware of the discussion going on in GD about the BATFE's proposal to ban civilian sales of M855. I assume this includes xM855.
This is real and you may want to check into it. Of course, we don't know what the outcome will be, but we should at least try to stop this. I have sent e-mails to our Senators and my congressman, Steve King. GD: BATFE to Ban M855/SS109 https://www.nraila.org/articles/20150213/batfe-to-ban-common-ar-15-ammo Direct link to BATFE proposal in question. http://www.atf.gov/sites/default/files/assets/Library/Notices/atf_framework_for_determining_whether_certain_projectiles_are_primarily_intended_for_sporting_purposes.pdf |
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As far as I know, the NRA successfully blocked a similar attempt in 2012. This year, all they've done is publish a panic-buying-inducing article. People have already commenced the panic buying en mass, many retailers are sold out. M855 or XM855 being banned doesn't really affect me to much, but I fear this may drive up the price of other 5.56/.223 due to M855 making up such a substantial portion of the market.
Perhaps the manufacturers will simply switch to XM193 or similar, but I have no idea to the feasibility of that. |
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I agree, there's tons of insanity buying going on in GD. There must be a lot of people that love green tips to be buying them up at greater and greater prices. If the ban goes through, they won't be able to sell or trade them. I have a few green tips on hand and it's not particularly something I need to stock up on. However, I think it would be dangerous to ignore this or take it laying down because you and I choose something besides green tips as our primary ammo.
The BATFE believes it has statutory authority to do this, but I don't personally believe green tips fall under the requirements of "armor piercing projectiles" in the statute they are citing. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what I believe. I would encourage everyone to not give this up easily. You can reply to the BATFE during the open comment period, send notes to your legislative representatives as they can bring political pressure on the BATFE. Will it help? I don't know. But I would rather try something than roll over and do nothing. Rights are in the process of being infringed. Time to speak up. |
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I agree, there's tons of insanity buying going on in GD. There must be a lot of people that love green tips to be buying them up at greater and greater prices. If the ban goes through, they won't be able to sell or trade them. I have a few green tips on hand and it's not particularly something I need to stock up on. However, I think it would be dangerous to ignore this or take it laying down because you and I choose something besides green tips as our primary ammo. The BATFE believes it has statutory authority to do this, but I don't personally believe green tips fall under the requirements of "armor piercing projectiles" in the statute they are citing. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what I believe. I would encourage everyone to not give this up easily. You can reply to the BATFE during the open comment period, send notes to your legislative representatives as they can bring political pressure on the BATFE. Will it help? I don't know. But I would rather try something than roll over and do nothing. Rights are in the process of being infringed. Time to speak up. IFC Form Letter is now active, goes directly to the ATF public comment section. |
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I agree, there's tons of insanity buying going on in GD. There must be a lot of people that love green tips to be buying them up at greater and greater prices. If the ban goes through, they won't be able to sell or trade them. I have a few green tips on hand and it's not particularly something I need to stock up on. However, I think it would be dangerous to ignore this or take it laying down because you and I choose something besides green tips as our primary ammo. The BATFE believes it has statutory authority to do this, but I don't personally believe green tips fall under the requirements of "armor piercing projectiles" in the statute they are citing. I'm not a lawyer, but this is what I believe. I would encourage everyone to not give this up easily. You can reply to the BATFE during the open comment period, send notes to your legislative representatives as they can bring political pressure on the BATFE. Will it help? I don't know. But I would rather try something than roll over and do nothing. Rights are in the process of being infringed. Time to speak up. IFC Form Letter is now active, goes directly to the ATF public comment section. Thank you sir. Also sent e-mails to Joni and Chuck, I ask and encourage all to do the same. |
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Why is this important. There is a poem that starts like this; When they came for the sick I did nothing and it ends with They are now coming for me and there is no one to help me. If you only join the fight when it is personal you will fight alone. Quoted:
Why is this important. There is a poem that starts like this; When they came for the sick I did nothing and it ends with They are now coming for me and there is no one to help me. If you only join the fight when it is personal you will fight alone. Are you referring to the quote by Martin Niemöller that's referenced in the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, D.C., the Virginia Holocaust Museum in Richmond, Virginia, the Holocaust memorial in Boston, Massachusetts, and in The Florida Holocaust Museum in St. Petersburg, Florida? I believe it actually goes Originally Posted By Martin Niemöller:
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. |
| Because it's a ban on a huge swathe of common ammunition that doesn't even fall under the category of the 1968 law they are using. By bureaucrats. No legislation to get passed. What's to stop them from banning m193 next if this is allowed? Absolutely nothing. There are states that possessing ap rounds is illegal. People would be forced to turn it over or become criminals. This is an extender slippery slope. |
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To go along with the poem, I don't use M855, but I do use M193. If I don't stand up for M855, M193 would be next. At first they'd probably stick to NATO/military loads like 7n6 and M855. But considering that any common rifle round that is also offered in a pistol form could penetrate soft armor, they'd have to try to ban all that ammo as well based on the AP law for pistols, using the same logic as this proposal. It seems to me that the ONLY thing M855 has going against it is the "penetrator" label used by marketing.
I'll be faxing my comments to them so that it helps make a huge file folder for them to lug around (assuming everyone else does this too). |
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All wonderful quotes and flowery speech....... Didn't change the ruling for steel core ammo for any other caliber.......ever. All the foot stomping and whining will be for nothing. That's the spirit!!! It's reassuring to see such a positive attitude from someone who obviously values their rights enough to fight for them. 
Seriously though, if you're so convinced this is going to happen you may as well turn in your green tips now and comply with the authorities. I'm sure there's no shortage of guys on this forum who'd be happy to properly dispose of them for you. |
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That's the spirit!!! It's reassuring to see such a positive attitude, from someone obviously values their rights enough to fight for them.
+1 come on fish. you wanted a voice, and IFC provided you a voice. use it. Seriously though, if you're so convinced this is going to happen you may as well turn in your green tips now and comply with the authorities. I'm sure there's no shortage of guys on this forum who'd be happy to properly dispose of them for you. Quoted:
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All wonderful quotes and flowery speech....... Didn't change the ruling for steel core ammo for any other caliber.......ever. All the foot stomping and whining will be for nothing. That's the spirit!!! It's reassuring to see such a positive attitude, from someone obviously values their rights enough to fight for them.
+1 come on fish. you wanted a voice, and IFC provided you a voice. use it. Seriously though, if you're so convinced this is going to happen you may as well turn in your green tips now and comply with the authorities. I'm sure there's no shortage of guys on this forum who'd be happy to properly dispose of them for you. |
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All wonderful quotes and flowery speech....... Didn't change the ruling for steel core ammo for any other caliber.......ever. All the foot stomping and whining will be for nothing. People like you are are the reason we've lost so much already. And you've missed my point. Its not a 'steel core' aa defined by the law. This can be beaten. |
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People like you are are the reason we've lost so much already. And you've missed my point. Its not a 'steel core' aa defined by the law. This can be beaten. Quoted:
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All wonderful quotes and flowery speech....... Didn't change the ruling for steel core ammo for any other caliber.......ever. All the foot stomping and whining will be for nothing. People like you are are the reason we've lost so much already. And you've missed my point. Its not a 'steel core' aa defined by the law. This can be beaten. You don't know me so I doubt you know what or how much I have done or donated in a lifetime to our "cause". And you missed my point,the "definition" of steel core "handgun" ammo at the end or the day,will be what the ATF wants it to be. This not something that can be"beaten" you don't get a vote and your representation in Washington won't touch this. |
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You don't know me so I doubt you know what or how much I have done or donated in a lifetime to our "cause". And you missed my point,the "definition" of steel core "handgun" ammo at the end or the day,will be what the ATF wants it to be. This not something that can be"beaten" you don't get a vote and your representation in Washington won't touch this. Quoted:
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All wonderful quotes and flowery speech....... Didn't change the ruling for steel core ammo for any other caliber.......ever. All the foot stomping and whining will be for nothing. People like you are are the reason we've lost so much already. And you've missed my point. Its not a 'steel core' aa defined by the law. This can be beaten. You don't know me so I doubt you know what or how much I have done or donated in a lifetime to our "cause". And you missed my point,the "definition" of steel core "handgun" ammo at the end or the day,will be what the ATF wants it to be. This not something that can be"beaten" you don't get a vote and your representation in Washington won't touch this. Once again I state, people like you are the reason we've lost so much. Your defeatist, whiney attitude that nothing can be done is pathetic. What does it matter how much you've done and donated when you just roll over and give up now? That's exactly what they want and exactly the reason our country is going down the drain. I have nothing else coc compliant to say at this point. |
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let's get this back on track... we've all got an opinion.
there is a mechanism in place to send an email of outrage, so use it if you're inclined. i will. as for the opinion on how much it will do, who knows... but i haven't forgotten that it hasn't been that long ago that we managed to send a clear message when DOD was junking all the military once fired brass as scrap too. send your letters and encourage others. we won that battle. there's no reason not to. |
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let's get this back on track... we've all got an opinion. there is a mechanism in place to send an email of outrage, so use it if you're inclined. i will. as for the opinion on how much it will do, who knows... but i haven't forgotten that it hasn't been that long ago that we managed to send a clear message when DOD was junking all the military once fired brass as scrap too. send your letters and encourage others. we won that battle. there's no reason not to. And we won the brass battle through spending bills that could not be vetoed. In this case, make it illegal for the ATF to create this proposed rule by defunding it, you place that rider in a bill that cannot be vetoed. If that does not work, then Congress can withhold all funding for ATF until the rule is dropped. Find the money and you will find the motive. |
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All wonderful quotes and flowery speech....... Didn't change the ruling for steel core ammo for any other caliber.......ever. All the foot stomping and whining will be for nothing. Go ahead and turn in your guns now then. That is the end game. This is one part of that. Might as well get it over, right? |
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That's pretty cheap compared to what I've been seeing! Panic buying has set in full swing, and you'd be hard pressed to find any for sale at anything close to a decent price. The best I found today was a case of 600 on the EE at $320. I thought was a super buy, but I already had pulled the trigger on about 500 yesterday.
It's my understanding the the ban is only a proposal, and will be awhile before anything firm happens. But panic buying is what it is I guess? |
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If you read the specifics, it isn't just about M855 (the SS109 bullet)...but about all projectiles that can be loaded into cartridges for which non-single-shot center fire handguns could be chambered.
I'm going to use 458 solids, a mainstay for big/dangerous game hunters, as an example. Bronze solids in .458 can be loaded into all sorts of different ammunition, but because it can be loaded into 458 SOCOM, for which there are semi-auto AR-platform pistols made, that projectile is not going to be given a sporting purposes exemption/exception under the proposal. Barnes has already been fighting with ATF over this for a couple years. Again, the emphasis is on the projectile, not the loaded ammo. By banning certain projectiles because there may be cases of a handful of non-single shot handguns available in A cartridge that can be loaded using that projectile, there is a significant ripple effect into ALL cartridges capable of being loaded with that projectile. Steve/RRA |
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Has anyone explored how much the velocity drops on an M855 when used in a pistol variant? Does it still have enough punch to really be effective at penetrating soft body armor at any reasonable distance? I don't know the answer to your specific question, but there was a thread in GD a while back with video showing that m193 is actually more capable of penetrating hard armor than the m855 was. Speed is a big factor in penetration as you are aware, but I would guess that even out of a pistol variant that m855 would penetrate soft armor at close range. |
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Once again I state, people like you are the reason we've lost so much. Your defeatist, whiney attitude that nothing can be done is pathetic. What does it matter how much you've done and donated when you just roll over and give up now? That's exactly what they want and exactly the reason our country is going down the drain. I have nothing else coc compliant to say at this point. Quoted:
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All wonderful quotes and flowery speech....... Didn't change the ruling for steel core ammo for any other caliber.......ever. All the foot stomping and whining will be for nothing. People like you are are the reason we've lost so much already. And you've missed my point. Its not a 'steel core' aa defined by the law. This can be beaten. You don't know me so I doubt you know what or how much I have done or donated in a lifetime to our "cause". And you missed my point,the "definition" of steel core "handgun" ammo at the end or the day,will be what the ATF wants it to be. This not something that can be"beaten" you don't get a vote and your representation in Washington won't touch this. Once again I state, people like you are the reason we've lost so much. Your defeatist, whiney attitude that nothing can be done is pathetic. What does it matter how much you've done and donated when you just roll over and give up now? That's exactly what they want and exactly the reason our country is going down the drain. I have nothing else coc compliant to say at this point. In six months I will be laughing my ass off that you believed your own BS...... 
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In six months I will be laughing my ass off that you believed your own BS...... Quoted:
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All wonderful quotes and flowery speech....... Didn't change the ruling for steel core ammo for any other caliber.......ever. All the foot stomping and whining will be for nothing. People like you are are the reason we've lost so much already. And you've missed my point. Its not a 'steel core' aa defined by the law. This can be beaten. You don't know me so I doubt you know what or how much I have done or donated in a lifetime to our "cause". And you missed my point,the "definition" of steel core "handgun" ammo at the end or the day,will be what the ATF wants it to be. This not something that can be"beaten" you don't get a vote and your representation in Washington won't touch this. Once again I state, people like you are the reason we've lost so much. Your defeatist, whiney attitude that nothing can be done is pathetic. What does it matter how much you've done and donated when you just roll over and give up now? That's exactly what they want and exactly the reason our country is going down the drain. I have nothing else coc compliant to say at this point. In six months I will be laughing my ass off that you believed your own BS...... I take that to mean in 6 months, if the ban goes through you'll be laughing?? Pretty obvious you're a troll, and more than likely the guy who's gonna be turning in his gun at the next buy back in your town. Enjoy being a pushover tho. I won't be wasting anymore time responding to you. 
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Quoted: Might as well lock this one kevin. I could care less what he thinks....... Quoted: Quoted: Please keep discussion civil and on topic fellas.  Might as well lock this one kevin. I could care less what he thinks....... ""He has the social skills of a howler monkey" Strongarm66 on his buddy Fish."  If it matters, I think this thread is dead ended as well. |
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That's pretty cheap compared to what I've been seeing! Panic buying has set in full swing, and you'd be hard pressed to find any for sale at anything close to a decent price. The best I found today was a case of 600 on the EE at $320. I thought was a super buy, but I already had pulled the trigger on about 500 yesterday. It's my understanding the the ban is only a proposal, and will be awhile before anything firm happens. But panic buying is what it is I guess? dude I just bought some ZQI SS109 for like 35c a round i think you over paid actually I know I over paid for mine last time I bought xm855 was for $130 for 420rds 
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| I actually bought the last the local Walmart had of those myself! I was glad to get them at that price, but panic buying is what it is! Look at the price of 22s! All it takes is a whisper of something bad, and then it starts! The side effect is the pissin contests you see in this thread and other places on the forum. Everyone has an opinion, but the facts are what they are. We all just have to deal with it how we feel is best. |
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I just got the following response from Chuck Grassley in response to an email that I sent to him about the ban:
Dear Jmint: Thank you for taking the time to contact me. As your Senator, it is important for me to hear from you. I appreciate hearing your concerns that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) plans to reclassify M855 ball ammunition as “armor piercing ammunition.” In light of this reclassification, the BATFE will consider comments from American citizens from now until March 16, 2015. You can provide your comments on this issue to the BATFE by using the following contact information: Email: [email protected] Fax: (202) 648-9741 Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602 Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs, and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives 99 New York Avenue NE, Washington, DC 20226 ATTN: AP Ammo Comments I want you to know that, along with other Senators, I intend to raise my own concerns with the BATFE. As Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, I plan to ask numerous questions of the BATFE concerning its justification for this proposed action. I am a firm supporter of our Second Amendment right to bear arms, and have continued to uphold our rights under the Second Amendment. You can be sure that any bill that seeks to restrict or restrain our Second Amendment rights will be given the strictest scrutiny and I will fight to ensure that no new limitations are placed upon our Constitutional rights to bear arms. I want to thank you again for sharing your views with me. By doing so, you allow me to better represent you in the Senate. Therefore, I urge you to keep in touch. Sincerely, Chuck |
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How long has 855 been on the market? According to a .mil website pdf I came across, SS109 was adopted by NATO in 1980. That doesn't mean it was publically available at that time. I do have one round of Lake City green tip headstamped 87. (No joke) and it has the NATO stamp. It came in a plain white box with foreign writing. I was told it was Yugoslavian military issue. |
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I just got the following response from Chuck Grassley in response to an email that I sent to him about the ban: Dear Jmint: Thank you for taking the time to contact me. As your Senator, it is important for me to hear from you. I appreciate hearing your concerns that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (BATFE) plans to reclassify M855 ball ammunition as “armor piercing ammunition.” In light of this reclassification, the BATFE will consider comments from American citizens from now until March 16, 2015. You can provide your comments on this issue to the BATFE by using the following contact information: Email: [email protected] Fax: (202) 648-9741 Mail: Denise Brown, Mailstop 6N-602 Office of Regulatory Affairs, Enforcement Programs, and Services, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives 99 New York Avenue NE, Washington, DC 20226 ATTN: AP Ammo Comments I want you to know that, along with other Senators, I intend to raise my own concerns with the BATFE. As Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, I plan to ask numerous questions of the BATFE concerning its justification for this proposed action. I am a firm supporter of our Second Amendment right to bear arms, and have continued to uphold our rights under the Second Amendment. You can be sure that any bill that seeks to restrict or restrain our Second Amendment rights will be given the strictest scrutiny and I will fight to ensure that no new limitations are placed upon our Constitutional rights to bear arms. I want to thank you again for sharing your views with me. By doing so, you allow me to better represent you in the Senate. Therefore, I urge you to keep in touch. Sincerely, Chuck I emailed him this morning and asked him to try to disband the ATF or de-fund them at the least 
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