Posted: 6/9/2010 8:33:59 AM EDT
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Scenario... You are in a restaurant... say, Longhorn, or somewhere similar that IS NOT POSTED. You are CCing, pursuant with your rights as a HCP holder. You order your food, spend the time chatting with your compadres... and finally the food arrives. 5 minutes into the meal the manager comes over and asks you to leave. You know the law, as all responsible HCPers should, and go to leave the restaurant, respectfully honoring the silly goat of a manger's wishes. Now here is the question...
Do you pay? If you dont pay, and he calls the police, do you pay? Or do you stand on your moral high ground and refuse to pay for services not rendered, as you were not given sufficient time to enjoy your meal? I am curious to hear your opinion, and lets remember... thats all these responses will be, as there is no right or wrong answer... I would like to say that I would lean towards the last option. If i hired a babysitter to watch my children, would I pay them before services are rendered? I think not, and I see this as a similar situation. The reason I say that "I would like to say" is that taking that third option may cost a LOT more than a meal, and im not sure im willing to put my wife and 4 kids through that... Most likely, I would politely debate my point with the manager, refusing to pay... though if he was insistent on calling the police... I would most likely simply pay for the meal, and walk out in disgust so as to save my family the time, money, and headache... |
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Quoted: Scenario... You are in a restaurant... say, Longhorn, or somewhere similar that IS NOT POSTED. You are CCing, pursuant with your rights as a HCP holder. You order your food, spend the time chatting with your compadres... and finally the food arrives. 5 minutes into the meal the manager comes over and asks you to leave. You know the law, as all responsible HCPers should, and go to leave the restaurant, respectfully honoring the silly goat of a manger's wishes. Now here is the question... Do you pay? If you dont pay, and he calls the police, do you pay? Or do you stand on your moral high ground and refuse to pay for services not rendered, as you were not given sufficient time to enjoy your meal? I am curious to hear your opinion, and lets remember... thats all these responses will be, as there is no right or wrong answer... I would like to say that I would lean towards the last option. If i hired a babysitter to watch my children, would I pay them before services are rendered? I think not, and I see this as a similar situation. The reason I say that "I would like to say" is that taking that third option may cost a LOT more than a meal, and im not sure im willing to put my wife and 4 kids through that... Most likely, I would politely debate my point with the manager, refusing to pay... though if he was insistent on calling the police... I would most likely simply pay for the meal, and walk out in disgust so as to save my family the time, money, and headache... I will be the first to ask. So did this happen? If so, at the above mentioned location? (You can IM me if don't want to throw out there, I just won't spend my $$$ there) If CCing, how did the manager know? Did you get to eat entire meal? (I know you said 5 minutes into meal). As for me, I would of asked why I was being asked to leave, and if I did not get to eat, I would of simply left without paying for meal, since I did not get to eat it. I may be wrong but, I do not believe any LEO would have issues with you not paying for a meal you didn't eat. |
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If they ask me to leave before i am done eating then i shouldn't have to pay. I would pay for anything i am due. I do not want to give the jerk any reason to make an issue. If you have been there for hours and have eaten a $50 meal, then i think the courts would consider services rendered and payment due.
Once they ask you to leave, you are trespassing if you don't leave. Then you are breaking other laws. |
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Quoted:
How does the manager know you are cc-ing? 
But seriously. I would pay whatever I owe and GTFO and politely tell the idiot that I, and anyone else I can persuade will not eat there again. Then I would posy here or in GD with MS Paint and a story about blading and adrenaline dumps. |
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Quoted:
Scenario... You are in a restaurant... say, Longhorn, or somewhere similar that IS NOT POSTED. You are CCing, pursuant with your rights as a HCP holder. You order your food, spend the time chatting with your compadres... and finally the food arrives. 5 minutes into the meal the manager comes over and asks you to leave. You know the law, as all responsible HCPers should, and go to leave the restaurant, respectfully honoring the silly goat of a manger's wishes. Now here is the question... Do you pay? If you dont pay, and he calls the police, do you pay? Or do you stand on your moral high ground and refuse to pay for services not rendered, as you were not given sufficient time to enjoy your meal? I am curious to hear your opinion, and lets remember... thats all these responses will be, as there is no right or wrong answer... I would like to say that I would lean towards the last option. If i hired a babysitter to watch my children, would I pay them before services are rendered? I think not, and I see this as a similar situation. The reason I say that "I would like to say" is that taking that third option may cost a LOT more than a meal, and im not sure im willing to put my wife and 4 kids through that... Most likely, I would politely debate my point with the manager, refusing to pay... though if he was insistent on calling the police... I would most likely simply pay for the meal, and walk out in disgust so as to save my family the time, money, and headache... Why would a manager ask a paying customer to leave if they were not causing a problem? I would definitely state my case if it was concerning my right to carry... |
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Its a hypothetical situation, which some, if not several lucky people are likely to encounter soon with the new law in place... I was just trying to provoke thought, it has not happened to me or anyone i know.
As for how the manager found out... doesnt really matter for my original purpose... but lets just say the lib-tard at the next table noticed a momentary printing as u leaned across the table and complained... I dunno, maybe im the only one... but i like to just think about situations i might find myself in, and how i would handle em... I feel it better prepares me to react if/when i find myself in a situation similar... |
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Quoted:
Scenario... You are in a restaurant... say, Longhorn, or somewhere similar that IS NOT POSTED. You are CCing, pursuant with your rights as a HCP holder. You order your food, spend the time chatting with your compadres... and finally the food arrives. 5 minutes into the meal the manager comes over and asks you to leave. You know the law, as all responsible HCPers should, and go to leave the restaurant, respectfully honoring the silly goat of a manger's wishes. Now here is the question... Do you pay? If you dont pay, and he calls the police, do you pay? Or do you stand on your moral high ground and refuse to pay for services not rendered, as you were not given sufficient time to enjoy your meal? I am curious to hear your opinion, and lets remember... thats all these responses will be, as there is no right or wrong answer... I would like to say that I would lean towards the last option. If i hired a babysitter to watch my children, would I pay them before services are rendered? I think not, and I see this as a similar situation. The reason I say that "I would like to say" is that taking that third option may cost a LOT more than a meal, and im not sure im willing to put my wife and 4 kids through that... Most likely, I would politely debate my point with the manager, refusing to pay... though if he was insistent on calling the police... I would most likely simply pay for the meal, and walk out in disgust so as to save my family the time, money, and headache... No offense to anyone who's already posted here, but for crying out loud, this was presented as a "What if this happened?" scenario...a hypothetical situation. Ogre did not say this had actually happened (though of course it's in the realm of possibility that it actually did)...I believe it was offered in the spirit of the times, i.e., We've just gotten restaurant carry reinstated, and there are likely to be unposted "islands" that are not carry friendly, and this could possibly happen. It is simply food for thought. It is indeed a thought-provoking question, as presented. What would you do under those circumstances? Personally, I treat is as a "what-if" exercise...thinking through possible scenarios helps me prune the decision tree if I am later actually presented with that or a very similar situation. Speeds up my decision-making processes. It also helps to have discussed possible scenarios with my wife and family, and explain to them what they're expected to do under those given circumstances. Just answer the question & play the game! (I'll do so, after I've had a bit more time to think about it...) David ETA: Well, while I was writing this (and also taking a phone call, & discussing supper with my family), I see that Ogre posted & clarified what was meant. Glad to see that I'm not the only one who tries to think things through ahead of time! |
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To me concealed is concealed, However I realize that no matter how vigilant you are at some point or another shit happens. I have a similar story to tell that hough it doesn't involve weapons could kinda translate to the same sort of thing.
As a teenager a group of us decided to test out an all you could eat buffet. We went to a Pizza hut for their lunch buffet. Five of us walked in with the intention of being asked to leave, not because of behavior, but just for eating too much after we discussed this. I don't remember how many pizzas we ate, but I know it was at least 4-5 a piece, with at least one of us eating 10. As soon as they would bring one out, one of us would go get it and eat the whole thing. The manager eventually told us that we weren't welcome there anymore, as we were making it difficult for the other guests to get anything to eat. One of the group explained that since it was all you could eat, that he felt we were being denied the service were were going to be paying for, and therefore we would be leaving without paying if we were not allowed to continue eating. The manager thought for a moment, and said that is fine you guys just need to go. I honestly don't know if I could have eaten another slice at that point and was glad to be going. All of us were miserable as hell afterwards, and vomited profusely on the way home and most had the squirts pretty bad before it was all over. The manager probably made a good choice because I doubt the 4.99 each that it cost at the time would have come even close to covering the actual cost of what we ate, and he just wanted us gone. Moral of the story is, If you are asked to leave because you have a weapon, and the restaurant is NOT posted as a no carry area, your best bet would be to rationally and calmly explain that since you were not provided the service you are expected to pay for, and were not breaking the law here in TN you will not be paying when you leave. If you don't make a big scene I THINK chances are most managers would be fine with that if you obviously didn't have an opportunity to eat your meal. IANAL, I didn't stay at a holiday inn express or anything like that, and realize that there are some crazies out there, but usually if you deal with rational people in a rational manner you will come to a conclusion that suits both of you. |
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To me concealed is concealed, However I realize that no matter how vigilant you are at some point or another shit happens. I have a similar story to tell that hough it doesn't involve weapons could kinda translate to the same sort of thing. mmm... I hear that phrase a lot... but i dont think concealed is as concealed as people like to assume... if ur wearin it on ur waist... IWB or OWB... you WILL print, unless your just constantly basing ALL of your movements around not printing... but i seriously doubt that many people live that way. Personally, I carry IWB, and wear clothing that keeps me concealed prolly about 90-95% of the time, and that just fine with me... cause on that mere 5-10% of the time that im printing... i would wager that I am spotted as carrying very rarely. |
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I would do my best not to cause a scene, but I wouldn't allow myself to get walked all over either. whene the manager came to me and informed me that I was no longer welcome because it was discovered that I was armed, I would appologize for not seeing the sign at the door (even if I knew no such sign existed). If he said their was no sign I would tell him that if guns are not welcome there then he needs to post that on the door. I would further inform him that since I am bound by law to leave, I would be now that he has instructed me to do so even though I had broken no law at that point. If he didn't bring the check with him and give it to me when I was getting up from the table, I would walk right out the door since not doing so could make me guilty of criminal trespass. If he tried to stop me before exiting I would say that I have been asked ot leave and am doing so, so that I would not be violating the law. If he tried to phisically restrain me I would say he can't have it both ways. If he wants me to leave, then I have to leave. If he won't let me leave then I am staying to finish my meal. I might even try to bluff if he kept pushing the issue and say he could be commiting assault if he touched me or even kidnapping if he refuses to let me leave. Only if he pushed it that far though. I would be polite and keep my voice at a reasonable level at all times.
I would be very reluctant to pay if I had not finished my meal. If it meant a ride down town in the back seat of a police cruiser, I would pay and never set foot in there again. I would further tell everyone I know not to eat there, and inform their owner or corporate office of my issue and decision not to patronize their establishemnt in the future. I would love to see the idiot libtard customer at the other table that complained to the manager get presented with my bill. |
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To me concealed is concealed, However I realize that no matter how vigilant you are at some point or another shit happens. I have a similar story to tell that hough it doesn't involve weapons could kinda translate to the same sort of thing. mmm... I hear that phrase a lot... but i dont think concealed is as concealed as people like to assume... if ur wearin it on ur waist... IWB or OWB... you WILL print, unless your just constantly basing ALL of your movements around not printing... but i seriously doubt that many people live that way. Personally, I carry IWB, and wear clothing that keeps me concealed prolly about 90-95% of the time, and that just fine with me... cause on that mere 5-10% of the time that im printing... i would wager that I am spotted as carrying very rarely. No, concealed probably isn't concealed as well as we think it is. On the other hand, most people probably have (at best) even odds that they would notice if someone walked past them with one of those tactical holsters strapped to their thigh. I had an IWB holser (that I no longer use) drop my handgun on the pavement when I got out of my car at the gas pumps. Plenty of people around. I picked it up, did a quick visual check of the gun, then reholstered and started pumping my fuel. Nobody gave any indication that they had noticed. As for the topic of the thread, if asked to leave, I am legally obligated to do so without raising a fuss. If the manager doesn't ask me to pay, I am not going to volunteer to pay. If the manager asks me to pay, I will probably point out that I have been asked to leave, and the time required to wait for my card to be run would seem to be an excessive delay in my complying with the manager's request to leave. From there, it would depend largely on how the manager wants to handle it, but I would not be inclined to pay for food that I was not allowed to finish eating. Some old high school friends got thrown out of an expensive hotel, and got out of paying by simply pointing out that they had been asked to leave before the night was over and that they had informed hotel staff of their plans before they checked in. It wasn't their fault that the hotel staff put a bachelor party on the same floor as the contestants for the Miss Teen Tennessee Pageant. |
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How does the manager know you are cc-ing? concealed is concealed... if they are seeing it, you are not concealed. LB PS I would bet you money that you are not spotted as much as you think you are. The majority of people do not even think about it. You and I prolly would catch it because we actively carry and look for it when we are out. Heck, I remember when I first started carrying I felt like I had a huge throbbing tumor that EVERYONE was looking at when I walked passed them. I was wrong... Now to get back to your original question...(sorry 'bout that). If it is not posted and he wants me to leave before I have finished then he is paying the bill. period |
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Strictly speaking, the Mgr violated the sales contract between the restaurant & the diner. The restaurant has an obligation to provide edible food & also an opportunity for the customer to eat it in a normal fashion. Since the Mgr asked someone to leave, then the contract is null & void & the customer does not have to pay.
Unless a place is posted, *I* cannot imagine a Mgr asking someone to leave if they're behaving & eating quietly....................... 
My .o2 |
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To me this is an interesting question. Assuming the hypothetical situation is as presented, the question is to pay or not pay. I have thought about how I would react as I am sure most of you have also. You are there legally as a patron, in a place not posted as prohibiting carrying of weapons, and minding your own business (the assumption is that there is no other contributing actions on your part other than carrying a weapon). It is my opinion that once the Manager has made the decision to ask you to leave, he is assuming a responsibility. That responsibility is the cost. If I understand the situation, you have just been served within the past five minutes. You certainly have not consumed the whole meal but may have eaten a part of it. Do you pay them a dollar for the bite of salad you ate? How do you proportion the cost? No, I think once the Manager asks you to leave, you do so graciously. His responsibility is the cost of the meal. If he then attempts to make a case (i.e. big deal) out of you not paying, pay the bill and then take them to court for thief of services or another juicy reason. |
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I'd pay for my drink but not my food. You can go through a lot of coke waiting in most restaurants, it would be fair to pay. The manager would have to bring it up though.
Here's some more fuel, what about the rest of the group? Are you supposed to sit in the car while they eat? Should they pay for food? In my group we would most likely ALL be armed, so it would be a blanket ousting. And why are you hanging out with people who won't take responsibility for their own safety? 
Something very similar happened up here not too long ago, although the bill was paid before anything was said. A cop was asked to leave a coffee shop because he was in uniform and on duty. He came in, got his coffee and was chatting with a customer when the manager said he didn't feel safe with the officer there. Libtards here hate cops and don't feel safe around them, but still think the cops are the only ones who should have guns? I'll be back soon. |
| What BobCole said and I'm LEO. Most criminal law is based upon "Intent". You did not intend to run out on a bill. I doubt very seriously anybody would get locked up. If the cop is an idiot (there's a few), I'd pay for the meal, hire a shyster lawyer (don't win, don't pay) and hope the restaurant is a chain or has deep pockets. At the very least the manager would get fired and the place would post a sign. As far as "Why would anybody know your CCing ? " First one that comes to mind is the photographer's vest and inappropriate clothing for the weather, leaving your coat on, printing......etc. Several years ago not so many people noticed or looked for it. Not so now. |