Posted: 6/28/2013 3:52:41 AM EDT
| Does anyone in Georgia (or maybe Bama or the Carolinas) run a decent small units tactics course for civvies? Fire and manuever, break contact drills, that sort of thing. |
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Anyone who runs a decent rifle course at all should be covering those drills.
Most of the good schools and instructors travel, and will come to you. Often, if you sponsor (make all the arrangements) the class, you attend for free. There are some great local instructors, and many nationally recognized ones, that come to a handful of ranges in GA quite often. If you're willing to travel a few hours, your options are wide open. I've never attended a rifle course that was focused on anything other than individual and small unit maneuvers. I'm not aware of anything marketed toward any larger groups anyways. The logistics and safety of running a class for LARGE units cannot be done with less than a military-scale training center and instructor cadre. |
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I have a Marine buddy that doesn't drink, but he'd take all the .308 I could give him. Not a bad idea.
I saw this course and I like the content but WV is a little too far away: http://www.maxvelocitytactical.com/Consultancy.html Dunno how your typical rifle/carbine course compares to that, but I'd certainly like more fire and maneuver and less square range stuff. |
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Quoted: Anyone who runs a decent rifle course at all should be covering those drills. I disagree with that being the measure of "decent". I don't want to be doing team tactics with some guys who just happened to have signed up for the same class I did and whom I just met that morning. I have attended well above decent rifle training that involved my ability to shoot a rifle and had nothing to do with working in unison with other shooters. Team training/small unit training should be undertaken by actual teams: spouses, parents/children, shooting buddies, etc.
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Quoted: Disagree entirely. So if you got to spend an entire day training on an individual basis with Daniel Horner on how to shoot a rifle, you wouldn't consider training decent as no team tactics were conducted because you were the only student there? I have trained with a retired Delta Force Sergeant Major. He taught me how to shoot a rifle better. We didn't train on team tactics. The training was better than decent.
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Disagree entirely. So if you got to spend an entire day training on an individual basis with Daniel Horner on how to shoot a rifle, you wouldn't consider training decent as no team tactics were conducted because you were the only student there? I have trained with a retired Delta Force Sergeant Major. He taught me how to shoot a rifle better. We didn't train on team tactics. The training was better than decent. That's not a rifle course. That's a marksmanship course. You can get great training on how to shoot a rifle, but that's marksmanship. Most people here would agree that a rifle class will be addressing very little in the way of mechanics (you should already be functional in that area), and be almost completely about mindset and tactics. In essence, not learning to shoot, but learning to fight, using shooting as the primary tool to effect winning the fight. What I disagreed with most in your first post, however, was your assertion that team training should only be taken by teams. Entirely untrue. Have you ever HAD a fighting rifle class where shooting and moving, shooting while moving, breaking contact, counter ambush, personnel extrication, pairs/group movements, etc. were taught? If not, you're way out of your lane. |
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You can get a full day or more of training in, covering a myriad of good, solid tactics, and not touch on a single team tactic. I suppose you're right, and I'll stand corrected on that point. Those single-person strategies and tactics are the foundation for building team tactics. And there are plenty of single-day classes that do so. There's no reason, however, that you can't start hitting two-man and two-team maneuvers and tactics on that first day, and really getting it down on the second. I'm a big fan of the way Tactical Response, in particular, structures their teaching. I've attended other schools, and I've never failed to learn a boatload at each one. I like that they have 5-day classes where the students are required to lodge together. A bunch of strangers that, by the end of the class, are a well-oiled machine. Even the two-day classes benefit from this aspect when people stay in the Team Room at Tactical Response. |
| That was more my point. That its hard to find a quality rifle course that doesn't start taking students through peels, bounding, over watch, and other basic concepts on the first day, with more complicated scenarios and problem solving using those tactics the second day, if there is one. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Disagree entirely. So if you got to spend an entire day training on an individual basis with Daniel Horner on how to shoot a rifle, you wouldn't consider training decent as no team tactics were conducted because you were the only student there? I have trained with a retired Delta Force Sergeant Major. He taught me how to shoot a rifle better. We didn't train on team tactics. The training was better than decent. That's not a rifle course. That's a marksmanship course. You can get great training on how to shoot a rifle, but that's marksmanship. Most people here would agree that a rifle class will be addressing very little in the way of mechanics (you should already be functional in that area), and be almost completely about mindset and tactics. In essence, not learning to shoot, but learning to fight, using shooting as the primary tool to effect winning the fight. What I disagreed with most in your first post, however, was your assertion that team training should only be taken by teams. Entirely untrue. Have you ever HAD a fighting rifle class where shooting and moving, shooting while moving, breaking contact, counter ambush, personnel extrication, pairs/group movements, etc. were taught? If not, you're way out of your lane. Yes, I have had such training, but I took the course with people whom I actually knew and might actually find myself in the company of when facing such a situation; not some guys who simply showed up on the same range as did I. I'm well within my lane. So, the Delta guy who worked on shooting and moving and entry tactics, etc, was only teaching me marksmanship.... Interesting.
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Have you ever HAD a fighting rifle class where shooting and moving, shooting while moving, breaking contact, counter ambush, personnel extrication, pairs/group movements, etc. were taught? If not, you're way out of your lane.
This post made me chuckle a little Chief. I guess this is what happens with the anonymity the Interwebs provide. |
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Quoted:
Have you ever HAD a fighting rifle class where shooting and moving, shooting while moving, breaking contact, counter ambush, personnel extrication, pairs/group movements, etc. were taught? If not, you're way out of your lane.
This post made me chuckle a little Chief. I guess this is what happens with the anonymity the Interwebs provide. I was thinking the same thing. He doesn't know who he doesn't know. |
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Small unit tactics such as room clearing (wall floods, penetration floods, limited penetration, saturation techniques, linear entries, etc.) as well as movement and cover drills, all should be taught by someone who knows what they are doing.
These topics are well beyond the scope of a standard rifle class. As an instructor who teaches such, and as a shoot house instructor, a considerable amount of dry runs are necessary. These are not one or two day courses IMO. As soon as I get my berm situation resolved, I'll be offering such courses. |
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Quoted:
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Anyone who runs a decent rifle course at all should be covering those drills. I disagree with that being the measure of "decent". I don't want to be doing team tactics with some guys who just happened to have signed up for the same class I did and whom I just met that morning. I have attended well above decent rifle training that involved my ability to shoot a rifle and had nothing to do with working in unison with other shooters. Team training/small unit training should be undertaken by actual teams: spouses, parents/children, shooting buddies, etc. I agree with this... but it's ok to mix strangers and help them build into a team. But like my first post said... DRY RUNS FIRST. |
