Posted: 3/2/2011 7:28:22 AM EDT
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http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-hs-1-4x24-riflescope-with-illuminated-tmcq-moa-reticle
http://www.vortexoptics.com/product/vortex-viper-pst-1-4x24-riflescope-with-tmcq-mrad-reticle What scope would be the better buy for me the HS or the PST. I do not know anything about mils or moa or how to use target turrets but I would be willing to learn.(is it easy to learn) I have narrowed my selection to these two because of the lengh and weight,this scope will be used for hog/cyote hunting and for fun. The other scope I was looking at was the DMS-1(too heavy and long) and the burris xtr 1-4-(the downside to the burris is that i dont shoot 62gr bullets) |
| Get the PST with the MOA reticle. If you have never used mils or MOA before, MOA's will be much easier to learn, as it translates easily into inches. The only thing that mils translates easily into is the metric system. Those of us that have used mils for a long time (in my case, over 20yrs) it ain't a problem, but don't go down that road unless you have to. |
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have you tried out a 1-4x before? I thought it was a cool idea too but then I got one. at 1x you are still looking through a tube, not as fast as a red dot. and 4x isn't really much magnification for just about anything.
just a thought. you are more than welcome to come peak through mine. taking it out this weekend for a few hours to sight it in. |
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I have a couple Millett DMSs and am pleased with them. I don't see a compelling need for a ranging reticle in a 1-4x scope but to each their own. You could easily figure out the MOA subtensions of the donut in the DMS and translate that to some basic range finding.
On 4x, I don't believe you could use the MOA hash marks in those Vipers at any distance that would be relevant for ranging. |
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Definitely get that scope in the MOA version. Pretty damn good scope for the money, And 4x is plenty to make shots on 3moa targets out to 5 or even 600 yards. I have no problem hitting 10" targets at 400 yards. I don't care for the Razor at all since the reticle is in the front focal plane. I prefer my low power variables to have the reticle in the second focal plane like the Viper.That scope has the ability to work d.o.p.e. for holdovers or dial elevation with the turrets.
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Quoted:
The main reason i am going to a 1-4 power is that i cant hit a damn thing at or past 100 yds with a red dot. I do know that MOA stands for minute of angle right ? Also what is diopter adjustment ? Question––-> What is diopter adjustment ? What is first and second focal plane and what does it have to do with the reticle? |
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When it comes down to 1st or 2nd focal plane, the big dealio is whether or not you're going to be doing a lot of target ranging quickly and on the fly. If you're not, then don't get the FFP. The FFP allows you to range unknown distance targets at any power range, easily.
The drawback to the FFP is that when the power goes up, the reticle gets larger and coarser. When the power goes down, the reticle gets smaller and finer. This is pretty much ass-backwards to how you want your reticle to be in most scenarios when changing power. The SFP reticle stays the same at all powers, but is set to range at a single, pre-set power. Although, any of my students can tell you, you can easily range with an SFP at any given power, if you got the know-how. This kinda makes the single "advantage" of the FFP a non-issue. Personally, I only use SFP scopes. Usually, diopter adjustment means that you have a parallax adjustment that is tuned by turning the outside of the objective end of the scope, i.e., what is usually referred to as an Adjustable Objective, but it can be used differently than that. Can you cut and paste the exact reference to diopter adjustment you are inquiring about? |
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FFP scopes are popular on the internet. I understand why people are attracted to them, but I think its mostly a training / experience / knowledge defieciency that causes folks to think they are the best thing since sliced bread.
I am convinced that most mil dot scope owners have know idea how to even start learning how to use them. They know the general premise, but have never actually tried to put it to practice. |
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Get the PST with the MOA reticle..... why the PST with exposed target turrets over the HS with capped adjustable ones? my first thought is that this is not a precision long range optic (being 1-4x) and that once you got your dope you could just use the MOS stadia for holdovers/windage. no? (maybe I need to take your basic marksmanship class....) 
also, how realistic is it to think the higher and exposed turrets would be a liability on a slung AR vs the lower capped ones? |
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Quoted:
The main reason i am going to a 1-4 power is that i cant hit a damn thing at or past 100 yds with a red dot. I do know that MOA stands for minute of angle right ? Also what is diopter adjustment ? diopter adjustment is simply a focusing knob or ring that allows you to adjust for your particular vision. for instance, my reading glasses are +2.5 diopters. If you were to look through a scope adjusted for my eyes with 20/20 vision it would look blurry, and vice versa... |
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I've shot justwoody's rifle w/ the PST and am considering selling my Trijicon TR24 1-4x and picking one up. I think the Trijicon has very clear glass and is a true 1x with very little distortion up close. My eye's pick up the target really well, not much slower than my RDS if at all. The PST took a little bit a adjusting the ocular to get it right and I had my doubts at first. Once I had it set for my eye, it seemed gtg and just as quick as the Trijicon.
My biggest complaint w/ the Trijicon is the triangle reticle. It's good for up close and quick as well as out to 200 yards. However, when I was shooting a half size sihlouette at 400 yards things started to change.... the reticle completely covers up the target while trying to hold over. You're forced to dial in, which isn't bad (depending on the situation), but it has the target knobs w/ dust covers as a hindrance. The PST's reticle is designed so you get the best of both worlds imo. It's got a dot as the center cross hair and fine hash marks for holding over out to distance. It's also surrounded by a larger circular area that catches the eye for up close. The illuminated reticle on the PST isn't very useful in the sunlight, but do you really need it then...? Trijicon fiber optics are bright w/ the shade opened all the way. We had no problems getting rapid fire hits at 100 yards off hand on multiple steel targets w/ either of the two optics on 1x. If you want to dial in, get the PST. If you're really concerned w/ accidentially turning the PST knobs, then get the other one. I'd get the PST, b/c I like having the option to dial easily if needed. Vortex PST 1-4x MOA 
Trijicon TR24 1-4x 
At distance, if the triangle isn't in the way, then the post underneath is.... (not my pic's) |
| I like the 'idea' of a FFP for hold over shots, but not on a 1-4x. I wouldn't purchase one for my .308 before trying one out though. As you all have said, the reticle gets way too small on the lower power. I do think it would come in handy at 6x?, maybe more like 8x to max power (15x-20x) for hold over shots. Many times in a hunting situation you just don't have time to dial, where you could have time to holdover. I missed a deer b/c I held over incorrectly using one of those ballistic plex reticles. I wasn't on max power where it's calibrated (14x), and was on 6x so I shot way the over the animal. Anyway, short of getting one out to the range and trying it out I *think* I'd use FFP in that type of situation, but certainly not on a 1-4x optic. Granted I still have alot to learn when it comes to precision optics... |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Get the PST with the MOA reticle..... why the PST with exposed target turrets over the HS with capped adjustable ones? my first thought is that this is not a precision long range optic (being 1-4x) and that once you got your dope you could just use the MOS stadia for holdovers/windage. no? (maybe I need to take your basic marksmanship class....)
also, how realistic is it to think the higher and exposed turrets would be a liability on a slung AR vs the lower capped ones? Agreed...Wouldn't the target turrets be vonerable to unwanted adjustment due to chest rigs and contact with other unmoveable objects...or this does not matter due to the return to zero shims ??? Thanks alot for all the help and info i will be buying real soon 
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| The BC scope cover chart I have doesn't have the Viper PST's on it. You might just have to weight until it comes in, measure it, and buy the caps. That's the best way to do it, anyways. I've had the chart be wrong before, but I've never been wrong when I measured it myself. |
Just went backordered should ship in 5 to 10 days...wtf |
Quoted:
Get the PST with the MOA reticle. If you have never used mils or MOA before, MOA's will be much easier to learn, as it translates easily into inches. The only thing that mils translates easily into is the metric system. Those of us that have used mils for a long time (in my case, over 20yrs) it ain't a problem, but don't go down that road unless you have to. The MOA is out of stock everywhere but the Mill is in stock are the mills really that hard to learn or do i need to wait it out...? |
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Quoted:
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Get the PST with the MOA reticle. If you have never used mils or MOA before, MOA's will be much easier to learn, as it translates easily into inches. The only thing that mils translates easily into is the metric system. Those of us that have used mils for a long time (in my case, over 20yrs) it ain't a problem, but don't go down that road unless you have to. The MOA is out of stock everywhere but the Mill is in stock are the mills really that hard to learn or do i need to wait it out...? I ended up getting one of these direct from vortex in a complicated exchange. They made it out like more would be in stock in a couple weeks. ETA looks like brownells has them. 466 for C&R/FFL/LEOs/Plumbers./Groomers etc
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=42369/avs|Manufacturer_1=VORTEX%20OPTICS/Product/VIPER_PST_RIFLESCOPES |
