Posted: 10/11/2009 7:53:49 PM EDT
so im between a rock and a hard place. My next student loan gets here in january. I plan to use it to further my studies in shooting since i bought a boat with the last one.
Im stuck between a few things.... a. Sig P238 b. CMMG ar-15 (CDNN has a special on them) c. sabre defense SBR (from mark) d. remington XCR tactical compact .308 e. remington LTR 20'' .308 im pretty sure im going to get the sig for a pocket gun....also think im going to go with the CMMG, and get the SBR when i get back from OCS next fall, that leaves me with the two rem's.... the new XCR is what, $300 more than an LTR? ant the only difference is the nice little bulge at the end of the barrell, and it does not have the x-mark pro trigger (which i had on my old rem 700sps, and i loved it) 
what says ye? XCR worth the extra $$$ ??? then there's the stock choices...i think im going to get another credit card and get the accuracy international set-up...or the JAE stock....probbaly the JAE..... 
then i can sleep with my rifle and wake up in a puddle of drool....not to metion all my friends will drool.... 
|
|
I have the XCR Tactical LR (i.e. Long Range) which is basically the same but with a 26" barrel. It is a great rifle.
Another thing you're paying for in the XCR line is the Trinyte coating which is a corrosion protection thing. I've shot my rifle in downpours and can honestly say it really does work. If you need that, it's worth it. If you only shoot when it's nice out, you don't. As for stocks, mine is bedded in a McMillan A-5. I really like it but I'm a McMillan fan. YMMV. Have you looked at the Tac Mod. It seems pricey until you price out a separate stock, DBM and bedding cost, then it's right in line. |
|
holy shit.
thats gun porn. but its WAY out of my price range
the JAE and the AI are bedded, arent they? i shot my SPS out in the rain, and never had a problem with rust or anything...actually, ive never had a problem with rust and a firearm....guess that coating would help if you were "outside the wire" and got caught in a rain and didnt have a chance to clean... hmmmm |
Remington 5R for the Win. For the money it's WAAAAY Better than the XCR. Read more here: 5-R |
|
so the 5R is basically the same EXCEPT for the type of the rifling??
man i have never seen the SPS-T....thats completely in my price range, after spending $700 for my JAE stock
i thought SPS was the long 26'' barrell like my old one (that i got at dicks) hmmmmmm thanks guys! have to do some research between 5R and SPS-T wonder if a little bit tighter groupings is worth the money. 
|
|
Quoted:
so the 5R is basically the same EXCEPT for the type of the rifling?? man i have never seen the SPS-T....thats completely in my price range, after spending $700 for my JAE stock
i thought SPS was the long 26'' barrell like my old one (that i got at dicks) hmmmmmm thanks guys! have to do some research between 5R and SPS-T wonder if a little bit tighter groupings is worth the money. Also stainless and has a better stock. The rifling cleans the easiest of any gun I own. |
First off Fuck Dicks. If they still won't take the trigger lock off the gun before they hand it to you why in the hell would you buy a gun from them? Hell, last time I checked they wouldn't even accept GFLs.
Second- what kind of range do you want to be accurate at? The 5R Rifling is superior in every way. You attention to aftermarket accessories worries me that this gun will not be shot that much. Why not buy the gun, slap some glass on it and shoot the hell out of it? $700 buys a LOT of Match ammo. Just sayin'- if you're wanting to race you don't buy the ferrari. You buy a ferrari to impress your friends. Give me a Kryloned up ratty old 700 that drives tacks and I'd be way happier than a shiny new one in a wiz-bang stock worth more than a case of ammo.
I think Joe is doing another Sniper class this year- it's 4 days and you're sure to learn a lot. |
|
Quoted:
First off Fuck Dicks. If they still won't take the trigger lock off the gun before they hand it to you why in the hell would you buy a gun from them? Hell, last time I checked they wouldn't even accept GFLs.
Second- what kind of range do you want to be accurate at? The 5R Rifling is superior in every way. You attention to aftermarket accessories worries me that this gun will not be shot that much. Why not buy the gun, slap some glass on it and shoot the hell out of it? $700 buys a LOT of Match ammo. Just sayin'- if you're wanting to race you don't buy the ferrari. You buy a ferrari to impress your friends. Give me a Kryloned up ratty old 700 that drives tacks and I'd be way happier than a shiny new one in a wiz-bang stock worth more than a case of ammo.
I think Joe is doing another Sniper class this year- it's 4 days and you're sure to learn a lot. Get the 5R, have the stock bedded, put some quality glass on it, and let it roll. I have seen them shoot 1/2 moa five shot groups out past 500 yards in the right hands. The class Joe gives is awesome. You will definitely learn a lot and get a lot of trigger time. I highly recommend it. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
First off Fuck Dicks. If they still won't take the trigger lock off the gun before they hand it to you why in the hell would you buy a gun from them? Hell, last time I checked they wouldn't even accept GFLs.
Second- what kind of range do you want to be accurate at? The 5R Rifling is superior in every way. You attention to aftermarket accessories worries me that this gun will not be shot that much. Why not buy the gun, slap some glass on it and shoot the hell out of it? $700 buys a LOT of Match ammo. Just sayin'- if you're wanting to race you don't buy the ferrari. You buy a ferrari to impress your friends. Give me a Kryloned up ratty old 700 that drives tacks and I'd be way happier than a shiny new one in a wiz-bang stock worth more than a case of ammo.
I think Joe is doing another Sniper class this year- it's 4 days and you're sure to learn a lot. Get the 5R, have the stock bedded, put some quality glass on it, and let it roll. I have seen them shoot 1/2 moa five shot groups out past 500 yards in the right hands. The class Joe gives is awesome. You will definitely learn a lot and get a lot of trigger time. I highly recommend it. YES.... bmarc69 is not kidding, and the boy can shoot !!! Hippie Kicker is dead on the money too. I did alot of lookin and thinkin and after seeing these rifles and going to the class myself, I went with a 5R. I got from 400 JL.. ( biggest damn gun shop I have seen in years, they have all the fun stuff in stock! ) Definately take the class. if you don't learn something its because you were not listening. I am takingt it again with the 5R in Jan.... Now that the NF is stripped of the AR I love the way the 5R feels. The heavy rain is the only thing keeping me from going to shoot it today. The stock is great, the trigger is pretty good. And it does clean up alot easier. Listen to the guys on here. Most of us shoot at least every week and 500 isn't really "long range" to us anymore. Get a good base rifle ( 5R) get alot more ammo, get a class with it. Learn to shoot it.... Then upgrade or modify to your needs, not desires. |
This is all you need... Giid rifle, great scope, and good ammo.... the only accesories you need are a bipod. The cheek rest I only needed to get proper eye alignment.
If you get that super cool pistol gripped stock you will have a hard time shooting it as well. An AR type set up ( which that $700 stock is really, a bolt action AR...) is very unforgiving and requires absolute perfection in position and follow through to get results on par with a regular set up. Good equipment isn't always the coolest and most expensive. |
|
Quoted:
Guess I'm sold on the 5r! 20in barell right? That stock is super cool, but I guess it would be pretty stupid to spen that much on it! One thing to keep in mind is buy what works for you. Me I hate the standard stocks, I don't like the hand positioning at all. The new stick that I'm finally getting on Friday has a pistol grip on it and has alot of nice features.... You just need to try different things and find out what works for you. |
24 INCH TUBE... on the 5R. not too long at all. 20 is sorta short, 26 sorta long... 24 is just right.. there has to be a reason the Army went with a 24 inch barrel, and there has to be a whole ton of people lots smarter than us that figured it out... You never mentioned the scope you were plannin on runnin on it. Mounts rings and scope will most likely cost more than the rifle.... 3 times more in some cases..
|
|
Quoted:
How is 20 to short? 20 is to short if u love 175s...ask me how I know, but it still slings those lil bus's to 600yds without a prob :) I'd rather have a little more pipe to get some more fps out of it.....o ya beat up 700 krylon remchester ftw! Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
How is 20 to short? 20 is to short if u love 175s...ask me how I know, but it still slings those lil bus's to 600yds without a prob :) I'd rather have a little more pipe to get some more fps out of it.....o ya beat up 700 krylon remchester ftw! Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile After hanging on the Hide for awhile. I think its more of a question on the rifling. If it was a 5C barrel, 20" is just fine for slinging them 1k without any problems. I'm not sure on the 5R. But either is better than standard rifling. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
How is 20 to short? 20 is to short if u love 175s...ask me how I know, but it still slings those lil bus's to 600yds without a prob :) I'd rather have a little more pipe to get some more fps out of it.....o ya beat up 700 krylon remchester ftw! Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile After hanging on the Hide for awhile. I think its more of a question on the rifling. If it was a 5C barrel, 20" is just fine for slinging them 1k without any problems. I'm not sure on the 5R. But either is better than standard rifling. kinda wanted the shortness of a 20in...keep in mind i live in marietta, the ONLY time ill be shooting this sucker long is at Joes matches, and WHEN i join i get to shoot long range...so max id be shooting it is what, 600-700 yards? i dont live out west 
im just still stuck between the 5R and the SPS-T the 5R is what- $400 more? whats the max range an SPS-T with factory loads can shoot? trying to justify yardage v. cost $400 for an extra 200yards is not worth it to me....id rather throw that into glass or stock. if the SPS-T can hit a 12x12'' plate at 700 yards, i think it'd be fine for me. |
|
Quoted:
How is 20 to short? Never said it was too short, just sorta short... 
24 is a good length for balance and handling, even with a suppressor. I do not understand the sudden desire to cut a barrel down to 20 in. when you get a suppressor, or even without one. The extra barrel will help on your loadings. I have a Finnish match rifle I shoot HP LR with, it has a 29 in barrel, and I can safely load the sierra 190 Mks in a 7.62x54R to 2850 fps. with a slower burning powder. (N150) 24-26 in just gives you more options. I have met very very few LR shooters in any discipline that cut their barrel shorter than 22 in. and did not regret it to some degree. Usually to the point of disgust with the decision. 4-6 inches is not that much... don't believe me? watch any porn and you will see nothing that short, because 4-6 inches is inconsequential ... so having that much more barrel sticking out past 20' really in the grand scheme of things is inconsequential to any perceived notions of handling or compactness and negatively offsets the benefits of the slightly longer barrel in regards to actual rifle performance on the ballistic level where it counts. FPS=RANGE if i can be just as accurate @2700 fps as I can @2500 fps, I can hit farther @2700 fps.... Of course people will disagree, but it really boils down to what is important to you and what your expectations and use environments are.... sorta like the twist rate debate... depends on your needs, either perceived or real. |
|
Well, the real "magic" in the 5R is the rifling and the barrel itself. It is hammer forged, and is a great profile that is a good compromise between weight and heat tolerance. Rifles with this type of rifling and being hammer forged have a much higher accurate barrel life, approaching 8000 rds. so it will last longer than a regular rem-chester barrel. That is definitely worth the money. Takes some money to rebarrel...
Never said you can't go long with a short barrel. lots of people do. Lots more don't. Just doesn't fit into my personal use/needs parameters based off of my experiences and interactions, or percieved or real needs/desires.... or something. Kills me when I see people trying to get "X" velocity with a 20 in barrel. when its hard to get from a 26 in one..It's never going to happen. find out what it can do and go from there. |
|
Quoted:
Well, the real "magic" in the 5R is the rifling and the barrel itself. It is hammer forged, and is a great profile that is a good compromise between weight and heat tolerance. Rifles with this type of rifling and being hammer forged have a much higher accurate barrel life, approaching 8000 rds. so it will last longer than a regular rem-chester barrel. That is definitely worth the money. Takes some money to rebarrel... Never said you can't go long with a short barrel. lots of people do. Lots more don't. Just doesn't fit into my personal use/needs parameters based off of my experiences and interactions, or percieved or real needs/desires.... or something. Kills me when I see people trying to get "X" velocity with a 20 in barrel. when its hard to get from a 26 in one..It's never going to happen. find out what it can do and go from there. Becareful or you'll start to question the numbers on the OSR. Trust me its all in the rifling. |
|
Quoted:
Hmmmm....I shoot 175's out of a 20" and go to 1300 without issue. The scope is really a big part of whether or not you can get there. Todd what is your load? I'm running a 175gr smk over 44gr or RL15 threw my can nets me around 2550 if I recall, but that got me to 600 at riverbend without a prob...I got the glass just hadn't tryed further then 6 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmmmm....I shoot 175's out of a 20" and go to 1300 without issue. The scope is really a big part of whether or not you can get there. Todd what is your load? I'm running a 175gr smk over 44gr or RL15 threw my can nets me around 2550 if I recall, but that got me to 600 at riverbend without a prob...I got the glass just hadn't tryed further then 6 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Black Hills Red box 175gr. SMK Match |
|
Quoted:
Becareful or you'll start to question the numbers on the OSR. Trust me its all in the rifling. Not pickin up what your puttin down....  AHHH the Mighty OSR.... I get it now.... hell even they said its a 1moa rifle. . 'Nother day, 'Nother thread...
I agree the rifling is the best attribute to it. the Hammer forging and profile is a bonus! |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmmmm....I shoot 175's out of a 20" and go to 1300 without issue. The scope is really a big part of whether or not you can get there. Todd what is your load? I'm running a 175gr smk over 44gr or RL15 threw my can nets me around 2550 if I recall, but that got me to 600 at riverbend without a prob...I got the glass just hadn't tryed further then 6 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Black Hills Red box 175gr. SMK Match fro, we done been through this man!! 2500 will get you out to 1000 plus.... Me I just would rather do it with 2700.... what can I say im a +P sorta guy. Todd what are you getting with that out of your gun?
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmmmm....I shoot 175's out of a 20" and go to 1300 without issue. The scope is really a big part of whether or not you can get there. Todd what is your load? I'm running a 175gr smk over 44gr or RL15 threw my can nets me around 2550 if I recall, but that got me to 600 at riverbend without a prob...I got the glass just hadn't tryed further then 6 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Black Hills Red box 175gr. SMK Match fro, we done been through this man!! 2500 will get you out to 1000 plus.... Me I just would rather do it with 2700.... what can I say im a +P sorta guy. Todd what are you getting with that out of your gun?
Damnit I want 2600 thu! Lmao Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Hell, I'm getting 2610fps out of my 18.5" Schneider 5P barreled custom. I've never had a problem getting 2650fps before out of a 20".
It's all about features and benefits. I prefer the shorter barrels for a .308Win with no use for a 24" barrel in this part of GA. 20" will get me to a 1000yds just fine. Even though the 24" barrel will do it better, I just don't shoot beyond 700yds enough to really benefit from the longer barrel. |
|
Hell I fianlly got a load that shoots good groups and stuck with it...I keep saying I'm going to play with it and don't...if I can get 2550 hell 2700 can't b far off, but my gun might not like that load...ill play with it one day when I get board Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
what bullet are you using Bill I'm using a 185 Berger VLD in prepped Winchester brass with a dash of RE15 in a 95 Palma Chamber. To be honest, I've been shooting the new .mil ammo lately (Mk316 Mod0) because Bergers are rediculously expensive and I just haven't worked up a new load yet. I am getting 2590fps with the Mk316 Mod0 though. Jonathan - we'll get together before too long, I've been on the road a bit lately though.... |
| Yeah I did notice that.... looked like alot of fun. Last time I saw those guys they didn't have all that cool stuff... ( like 94 or so...) but I finally got a real riflr to put that NF on so it needs some workouts at the various ranges. Yeah the bergers are not cheap, and can be a little finicky... they do like to cut through the wind though.... I figure on runnin 175 sierra's about 2650 or so should get me everywhere I want to go.,,, just let me know when you want to make it out. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Hmmmm....I shoot 175's out of a 20" and go to 1300 without issue. The scope is really a big part of whether or not you can get there. Todd what is your load? I'm running a 175gr smk over 44gr or RL15 threw my can nets me around 2550 if I recall, but that got me to 600 at riverbend without a prob...I got the glass just hadn't tryed further then 6 Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Black Hills Red box 175gr. SMK Match fro, we done been through this man!! 2500 will get you out to 1000 plus.... Me I just would rather do it with 2700.... what can I say im a +P sorta guy. Todd what are you getting with that out of your gun?
Damnit I want 2600 thu! Lmao Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Back on October 18th 2008 when I chronoed it an Average of 10 shots was 2636 fps ES was 13 and SD was 6.8 Temp outside was 47 degrees and overcast gloomy. Best 100 yard 5 shot group measured .54. Shot several 5 shot groups under an inch at 200 and one group at 1,07" at 300. Consistently shot 3" groups into the head of an IPSC target at 400. Scope is a NF 5.5-22 with NPR1 reticle on a 30moa base. Barrel is a Broughton and is actually 20.5" |
|
Not going to say much on this, but if anyone wants to talk come out and we will.
Notice 00Bullitt had data on bullet and outside conditions. These are things you have to have no matter what you shoot. If I am correct he is shooting factory ammo and accomplishing what alot of people spending thousands can't do. You don't have to have a 5000.00 rifle to shoot great, but you do need good glass. I read people posting about what works and doesn't work. Each rifle will shoot different and each shooter will shoot different. Build a rig that you are comfortable with and collect all the data you can as you are shooting. Your data book is the most important item you have as for as gear goes. Weather and and conditions make a bigger difference than what bullet you are using. Learn how to call winds and make adjustments due to the weather and your groups will tighten up also. The better shooters will have data on their rifle and ammo in all conditions and not just shoot in ideal situations. I believe the last 3 winners at my challenges were shooting factory ammo. |
|
Quoted:
Not going to say much on this, but if anyone wants to talk come out and we will. Notice 00Bullitt had data on bullet and outside conditions. These are things you have to have no matter what you shoot. If I am correct he is shooting factory ammo and accomplishing what alot of people spending thousands can't do. You don't have to have a 5000.00 rifle to shoot great, but you do need good glass. I read people posting about what works and doesn't work. Each rifle will shoot different and each shooter will shoot different. Build a rig that you are comfortable with and collect all the data you can as you are shooting. Your data book is the most important item you have as for as gear goes. Weather and and conditions make a bigger difference than what bullet you are using. Learn how to call winds and make adjustments due to the weather and your groups will tighten up also. The better shooters will have data on their rifle and ammo in all conditions and not just shoot in ideal situations. I believe the last 3 winners at my challenges were shooting factory ammo. Gotta go to the class to learn any more!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Believe me, you will. |
|
Thats a fact. Data is key. Learned this in class, and started applying it to my service rifle. have tons of data now. No worries just look it up and go with it, correct as required. Helped the scores as did the wind reading we learned and practiced. I can now tell when the barrel is dying and can track any changes as they occur. I load the same load all year, usually in a huge lot at one sitting. the temp and humidity change the load performance a great bit, as it does the impact of the round. I get alot more first round 10's and x's now than I did before I knew how to correct for the environment and had solid figures to start from. It does help to have good equipment and ammo. but if you don't learn the ins and outs of what its doing, your wasting money and time. That being said, I love the fit of the 5R and the NF is a great optic. That combo works for me and I will be very comfortable with it. That makes it so much easier to shoot it to itts potential, or rather to learn to shoot to my potential.
s30series, find someone that has what your looking for, try it out and get somthing that works for you. Heed the recomendations and warnings of those in the know or with more experience in the matter. Trust me on this. Absolutely trust Joe on this. Also know its not a cheap sport at all....
|
|
amen to not cheap
since im down here in the big ole' South, with no huge farm land or anything near me, i *think* im going to go with the SPS tactical, 20in .308. with that said, the extra money i saved without going to the 5r (which i would get if i had 800m+ places to shoot every weekend) i am going to put into getting an EXCELLENT scope/ring combo. Nightforce/leupold...thats a whole other realm that i will research after i purchase the rifle....hey, ive got a few months to sit on it. also the tact-i-cool stock is out of the question i guess...then again, i absolutly loved the choate sniper stock with the pistol grip on my old 700sps.... for now, im going to settle on the rifle. now its time to research scopes. you've also got to realize that i do NOT reload. mainly because i dont have the money to front the equipment, i dont know what im doing, and i dont have a place to do it. i still live at mom and dads (still at the university!) so i think ill hold off and shoot factory rounds for now. seems like thats another awesome aspect of the 5R...being able to customize perfect handloads for it. thanks for all the input guys! i just wish i lived out-west somewhere where i could shoot 1000m shots and take FULL advantage of the capabilities of the 5R! |
|
Quoted:
What? No love for the Savage 10 FP? For shame.  Yea.. I have one... I love it.. a nightforce sits on top and it's far far more accurate than i am... Best bang for the buck out there.. Stock for stock the remington has a better stock, savage a better barrel.. If you get the upgraded stock... the thing is a tack driver.. Mine sits in a mcmillian a5 which has been glass bedded. |
|
Quoted:
Not going to say much on this, but if anyone wants to talk come out and we will. You don't have to have a 5000.00 rifle to shoot great, but you do need good glass. I read people posting about what works and doesn't work. Each rifle will shoot different and each shooter will shoot different. Build a rig that you are comfortable with and collect all the data you can as you are shooting. Your data book is the most important item you have as for as gear goes. Weather and and conditions make a bigger difference than what bullet you are using. Learn how to call winds and make adjustments due to the weather and your groups will tighten up also. . Hey Joe, can you comment on the bushnell 3200 elite scope? I have a post a few down from this one. The only reason I am getting it is to come to your class! Ok well it's not the only reason but I can't come until I get one. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Not going to say much on this, but if anyone wants to talk come out and we will. You don't have to have a 5000.00 rifle to shoot great, but you do need good glass. I read people posting about what works and doesn't work. Each rifle will shoot different and each shooter will shoot different. Build a rig that you are comfortable with and collect all the data you can as you are shooting. Your data book is the most important item you have as for as gear goes. Weather and and conditions make a bigger difference than what bullet you are using. Learn how to call winds and make adjustments due to the weather and your groups will tighten up also. . Hey Joe, can you comment on the bushnell 3200 elite scope? I have a post a few down from this one. The only reason I am getting it is to come to your class! Ok well it's not the only reason but I can't come until I get one. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile I am no expert... But i did spend a considerable amount of time researching scopes... I've read nothing but good things about those scopes... Almost nothing negative.. I think they are a good bang for your buck type scope.. |
|
since it's ar15.com, i'd say get the CMMG
here's my RRA for inspiration: 
bipod stud still needs to be installed that scope is a Falcon Menace 4.5-18x56 (~$400) and it's on par with $1000+ scopes. mil based reticle (@ 10x) with mil based turrets & side focus. they also make a 4-14x44 mil dot scope that's has an FFP reticle. my reticle looks way better in person b/c i have a shitty camera and am a shittier picture taker, but here's a crosshair pic out my window on a cloudy/rainy day @ some trees about 30yds away @ 10x: 
|