Posted: 8/13/2006 4:04:23 PM EDT
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Hey guys. First off let me say that I have absolute, utmost respect for officers of the law and highly repsect the risks they face in their jobs. That being said... I was pulled over today on my way back from Charleston. I was hoping to get some advice from the hometown police officer members on how to handle what happened. I was cruising down Hwy 78 outside of Washington, Georgia doing around 60 - 65. I always set my cruise control around that speed when on a 55 mph rural hwy. All the sudden I see blue lights behind me. I pull over immediately. I give the officer my license and insurance info. I ask, "Did you get me for speeding?". The officer replied, "yeah, I clocked you at 74". I was baffled. I told him very politely that I never go that fast and that my clean MVR will show that. In between the time he took my license and came back to my window, another GSP pulls over another vehicle and parks right behind the GSP car that pulled me over. He comes back after writing me the ticket and I ask, "May I ask what you clocked me with?" He says he got me with "the radar". I cordially ask, "if it wouldn't be too much trouble , may I see the radar?". He pauses and tears the pink copy from the ticket and then says, "for my safety I don't allow anyone back at my car." FYI, I'm 5' 6"/150 lbs...which he knew because he transfered that same information from my license to my ticket. The GSPman was 6' 2"/220! And in no way do I look like a trouble maker. Bookhound has met me and he can vouch that I am one of the most clean cut guys you'll ever meet. This was also in broad daylight along with his backup that was directly behind him with another car pulled over. I guess I just would like to know if I have any viable options to fight this ticket. I'm not saying this officer is a liar but I know where I set my cruise and I wasn't going anywhere near 74 mph. I've always heard that if you ask to see the radar that they are intitled to do that for you. Is there any truth to that? I am considering driving to the courthouse tomorrow to speak with someone. Who would I need to speak with? Thanks a lot for any advice guys. |
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Were you a solo car or were you travelling with a pack of cars? I hate to say it, but if you were solo in most cases it will be up to you to prove that you weren't. I know, I know, thats contrary to the Government having to prove its case against you-but take this into consideration. -Speedometers can frequently be off just by your tires being over/under inflated -Cruise Controls can be off and by no means are "proof" that you weren't speeding. After all, the officer didn't see it. Also, when a vehicle accelerates to go up a hill to maintain speed, there can be a lag time before it stops accelerating when it hits flat ground. This means the vehicle can actually be accelerating past what you set, and only after the engine stops accelerating does it slow down to your set speed. -The officer goes through a class where part of Radar/Lidar operation involves visual speed estimates where he needs to be correct within 5mph of his estimate. If for instance, he estimated your speed at 60mph and the radar came up with 74mph, he is supposed to throw out the reading. Essentially, the radar only verifies the speed and isn't to be the sole determination. -The Officer is required to do a radar check if the driver asks for it-this by no means means that you are allowed to see the radar as 1, it is an Officer safety issue. There are plenty of big bad guys that have had there asses kicked by little guys and the other officer present was doing his own traffic stop and wasn't providing dedicated back-up. 2, there is no requirement whatsoever that the officer lock in the speed. He may have simply not locked it in. I know I never did and I never let anybody out of the car unless they were going to jail. -The officer is also required to log in and out the times that radar checks were completed, using the provided tuning forks. He is to do this at the beginning and end of use as well as when requested. In other words, can you beat a radar ticket? Absolutely, as I have heard from plenty of people who have. In my experience, I've never lost a radar or lidar case. There is a set list of questions the prosecutor will ask the officer on the stand. This will cover everything from how far of a distance was he visible for (500' for city/county-this rule doesn't apply to GSP), did he test the radar prior to use, did he do a visual estimate prior to activating the radar and what was the speed, etc. The officer should be able to answer a lot of questions to establish his training and credibility. If the only thing you have to say is, I wasn't speeding I had my Cruise Control set-that doesn't prove anything on your part. A clean drivers record doesn't prove anything on your part either but can get you a lower find. Bottom line is that it'll be up to you to disprove the officer and his credibility. An independant witness helps, but how do you get that? A passenger doesn't count as they are automatically considered to be biased in your favor. You can request the certification records for the radar (required to be done yearly), but remember that you will need to get them through FOIA and will not just be generally provided to you. You can ask any other questions too and take the stand if you wish though. By admitting that you were speeding up to 10mph over the speed limit is just that-an admission of speeding. Remember, the 10mph rule doesn't apply to GSP either. You can go and fight it as it is your right to do so, maybe the officer won't show. But if he does show, the odds are against you unfortunately. You can request a copy of the videtape if it's available, but if there was no arrest made it probably was recorded over. It wouldn't show anything anyway as it isn't activated until the emergency equipment is activated and only shows the officer conducting the stop. The only thing it sounds like you might want is him saying that he isn't going to let you get out of the car-which is perfectly legit. Don't worry, it's very rare that I have met a GSP Trooper that didn't have something jammed up his behind. I hope this provided you with at least a little information besides the "speeding tickets are strictly revenue makers and don't help anything" comments that I am sure will come. |
You could always plead nolo to avoid having points added to your license which would cause insurance hikes. |
| Dude I'm sorry about the ticket, BUT you were speeding by your own admission. If it was a murder charge instead and you shot a guy 2 times but the officer said you shot the guy 50 times it really don't matter, theres a dead body of a guy you shot. I dunno the law obviously but good luck anyway. |
Horse Crap! Speeding is a graduated "crime". A ticket for 5 over is much different than a ticket for 19 over. 
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I will also point out I believe SP can issue a ticket for any amount of the posted speed limit. Lawman734, isn't that correct? The "less than 10 miles over" is only allowed by non-State Patrol. If that is correct, you're busted no matter what. As LesC stated you were speeding.  Sorry, bro. BTW, sometime reminded me to tell you the story of me getting pulled over at 22:00 on a Friday night doing 79 in a 55 (on 285; and I wasn't the fastest car on the road by a long shot). I had two uncased AR lowers on the back seat, a new Walther P22 sitting on the front seat and my Kimber on my hip. I was in my wife's car and when I popped open the glove box to get the insurance card I was reminded that we keep a J-frame Smith in there.  I got no ticket and talked with the officer for 20 minutes about guns.  |
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Here's my wild opinion: "74 (1 mph less than 75) in a 55" sounds like: "he was going faster, but he seemed like a nice guy, so I just ticketed him for 74." Whether you were going faster or slower than 74 is irrelevent in this scenario. "74" seems like a magic number, with unspoken meaning, like, "this guy has the nerve to challenge when he could have gotten a worse, or multiple citations." I feel strongly that if there is some significant legal difference between 74 in a 55, and 75 in a 55, I wouldn't fight it since it's probably already in the bag. YMMV |
..... and that right there is where the problem starts. On every Georgia highway, people doing the 'Speed limit' become stationary objects that Soccer Moms, suits, and teenagers slalom around. The Feds have done plenty of studies than show the flow of traffic gravitates to the safe speed the road conditions allow. Bad law leads to civil disobedience. Look at the 'success' of Prohibition. Civil disobedience leads to a general lack of respect for the law, and the people setting them. LEOs get stuck in the middle between the irate citizen and the idiot law-makers. Back to George's situation: - plead Nolo - gamble on the officer failing to appear, ask the judge to not continue the case and accept your not guilty plea. If he does show up, try to appeal it and hope he doesn't show up then! - Jump up and down yelling your civil rights were violated, and the glove doesn't fit, Dammit! I've never tried this, but I was tempted.  |
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Didn't see it mentioned. What kind of vehicle were you driving? Any recent mechanical work done to it? How about tires, are they stock size? You may have been going a lot faster than you think. We had a work truck transmission replaced once, and noticed everyone seemed to be driving slowly for some reason. At 65 we would literally pass everyone on the road in a 70 zone. One day we polled even with a new caddy with one of those large led speedos. we were showing 55, he was showing 70. Drove that truck like that about 8,000 miles, never got a ticket. Guess you got ours.
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Thanks wrench, I thought about this. The vehicle is was an '04 Tahoe with one size up from factory standard tires. Could they have made that dramatic of a difference? |
| What is one size up? One inch? If you have say a 32" tire instead of a 31" tire the actual difference is only 1/2" in height. This will throw your speedo off a bit. I suggest getting a friend with a stock ride to pace you and tell you what his speed is relative to yours. |
Not if you put low profile tires as they recommend... It sucks to get clocked while being a lone wolf... And zapped by radar...gasp. That's really old technology. May I remind you there are plenty of good radar jammers and even laser burners? I'd hit it. I have no experience with GSP. It's always been with the local guys. I bet GSP/County Court are more interested in your $$$ than trying to bring down your life. Good luck |
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I believe you have an L460E transmission in that ride, it is an updated electronic version of a 700R4 (BTW, I need one, anyone got?). IIRC that tranny has the speed output set by computer, IE the ratio is digitally generated. Someone correct me if I am wrong. So, when you go to larger tires, you must reprogram the onboard computer for the different size. This is also a potential trouble spot if it is programmed incorrectly. |
That is correct and the reasoning behind it is that the money generated through fines can't be specifically set aside for the agency as it goes into a statewide general fund where revenue generated through fines is a tiny portion compared to other ways of gaining revenue like taxes, etc. The 500ft of visibility rule doesn't apply to GSP either. GeorgeW2004, if I remember correctly-going to a larger tire increases your speed. By how much, I have no clue. If you have a mechanic-friend you can have him check it. Using another vehicle isn't always the best way because what if that vehicle is off too? Injun-ear, the only problem is-what if the person was actually clocked at 74mph? Then the speed that is written down is 74mph. Usually when an officer cuts a guy a break he tells that person that he reduced to it further reduce the liklihood of going to court. It doesn't make any sense to cut the person a break and then not tell them about it. |
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A couple of decades ago my dad got a ticket on his way to a meeting.This was when the speed limit was still 55. At that time the officer reduced it to 74 because 75 and up was considered wreckless driving and called for a ride to the courthouse. Don't know if this is still true or not, but if it is, he's giving you a break especially if your speedo was that far off. I just got pulled for 78 in a 55 but my speedo was only showing 72. I was lucky that I only got a verbal, but I think it has a lot to do with having a CDL and the guy didn;t want to effect my livelyhood. I wasn;t being wreckless changing lanes and the like, I was on an expressway by my self,.....well, almost by myself. |
That and clocking yourself between mile markers on the expressway. I know that if I am going 60, it should take 1 minute to go between them. If it is off, I calculate what I was actually doing and compare it to GPS. Divide the number of seconds that it takes you to go one mile into 3600 (the number of seconds in an hour) to get your true speed. I also clock several different mile markers just to make sure. I do that every time I get new tires. |
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A couple things to point out about checking your speed- One. Tires larger than factory will always increase the vehicle speed above what the speedo says. I'm not aware of any vehcle with a computer that compensates. digital/electronic sensors have to be reprogrammed, or the vehicle is regeared to match closely, or older vehicles can have a new speedo gear Two. GPS isn't without flaws either. IF you have several satellites tuned in, you can bet it's close to dead on, but if you only have a few, don't count on it. That said, My 4Runner came with 27" tires from the factory and I run 31" (measured 31 by measuring while warm from the ground to the centerline of the axle X2=31"). So it's right at 2" higher, threfore more distance travelled per rotation. If those roadside radar sigsn are accurate (and my GPS), I'm going about 2mph faster at 40, but 6-8mph faster at 70. So the speed increases exponentially to some degree. Point being, just because you pass the roadside radar sign by the local PD, and it says 47 and you look down and you're speedo says 45, it doesn't mean at 70, you're really doing 72. You'd have to have some huge tires to make the difference between 60-65 and 74 .9-14mph difference, you should be able to tell how fast crap is going by. As Lawman said, if you're on cruise it's not going to decellerate you. IF you just crested a hil and the cruise is picking up speed, and now your costing down hill, the cruise isn't going to brake for you and you could easily pick up 9 mph in an automatic as it kicks up to high gear. My advice is ask the judge if you pled No-Lo, what difference would it make. It might reduce your fine, but maybe not. It might just keep the fine off your record. |
The answer is, Yes. I have a '98 Chevy 3500, the factory tires were 245-75R 16's, the tires that I have had on it since have been 235-85R 16's. When my speedometer reads 60 I'm actualy doing 64 and 70 is actualy 76. Tire size does make a differance. I did get a ticket thrown out once for having a miscalibrated speedometer, but that was a long time ago and in Tenn. I thought about getting the computer to reprogram my truck but the price kept me from getting it, around $300. Chris |
? I thought you long range tactical dudes were math wizards ? Circumference = Pi x Diameter. Therefore, a 10% increase in tire diameter equals a 10% increase in speedometer error. Because tire circumference is the distance travelled per one wheel revolution. Example: 32" / 31" = 1.0323. So the speedo would be off 3.23% too low, assuming it was correct before the tire change. Simple, eh? |
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So what's with this "500ft visibility" thing? Is this a departmental procedure, tort, or actual law in GA? Two of the bullshit tickets I've gotten down here have been by locals claiming to have "gotten me" at 1065 and 1200ft, respectively. I am aware of torts in some states that have in effect caused most readings at over 1000ft to get tossed and inquired about it with a GA barred attorney who claimed to know nothing about it. I'm very interested to hear more. |
It is Georgia law that when operating a speed detection device such as radar or lidar (laser) that certain requirements be met before there use. This includes: -40-14-5(b), the Officer shall ask the driver if they would like an accuracy test (for radar) -40-14-6(b), the Officer can't use a speed detection device within 500' of a "speed detection devices in use" sign. -40-14-7, The vehicle that the device is operated from is visible for more than 500' (for stationary devices only, doesn't apply to moving radar). -40-14-8, The Officer is only allowed to prosecute for speeds over 10mph of the listed speed limit, unless in a marked school zone, construction zones, arked residential districts and marked historic districts. -40-14-9, The Officer cannot make a speed case within 300' of a reduction of speed sign within city limits or 600' of a reduction of speed sign outside of city limits. The Officer also can't operate it on any grades over 7% (list can be found at any local D.O.T./Road Maintanence. Those are the big ones that apply to there use, the others are regarding calibration and maintanence, training, and permits required and there requirements. Like I said before, the above does not apply to GSP. A radar isn't going to tell you specifically how far the detection was obtained at, so any distances put down for that are strictly officer observations and really have no bearing on the case. A Lidar/Lazer will tell you down to the foot what distance the speed detection was obtained at. I've clocked cars with a laser up to 3100' before, but that is under perfect conditions. Usually atmospheric "junk" like moisture/humidity and smog get in the way before allowing you to get a lock, so by far most detection is done within 1500'. Notice that I said that it won't give the Officer a locked in speed-it will not give false reading, it just won't present you with a speed unless it's locked on. I have never heard of any law regarding the distance a laser can be used at other than the 500' of visibility rule. A Laser is a lot easier to use than a radar and it's calibration check is simple. You have to measured signs to check it's accuracy for distance and then you use a light pole or other thin object at a similar distance to check the red dot sight for accuracy. There is no option for checking the device in the field like there is with a radar. Instead it's checked at the beginning of use and again at the end of the day for accuracy. If it was accurate before use and is now off after use, say because it took a nasty drop, etc. All tickets written using the device during that time period are supposed to be voided. While there are radar detectors out there that do work (Radar Jammers are illegal as radar is operated within frequencies governed by the FCC). I haven't come across any laser detectors that worked. The reason being is that the laser sends out its beam at the speed of light, and it's returned with the speed at the speed of light. It's also a narrowly focused beam, so by the time the device picks up the laser-you're already caught. Other things like the front license plate covers, etc that are supposed to impede laser use don't work either because I can get a signal off of just about any surface on the vehicle. |
No problem at all, I think it helps if both parties involved are aware of the nuances and laws regarding the use of the devices. The information isn't necessarily secret, it's just a lot of information to know about and knowing where to find it. |
Yeah well..... I miss alot... |
Absolutely. 33's require 4.88 gears to return the vehicle to the proper rpm range/speedo range. 31" needs 4.56 (it'll be a little over geared) 32" uses 4.56 (it'll be a little under geared) 33" uses 4.88 35" uses 5.29 This all applies to Toyotas only based on the transmission gearing and RPM operating ranges. bazkook, check out 4x4wire or yotatech.com for more info on this. 4x4wire has a good forum for early toyotas. |
Dang I was hoping I wasn't going to have to regear the truck. I won't be driving the truck that much anyway on public roads and if I do I'll drive really slow so I know I'm not speeding. |
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Sometimes the state trooper's are a little ticket happy... My recommendation. Call the County Court and set an appointment with the judge or the prosecuter. They will likely reduce the charges or make it just a monetary penalty. I did this once in a similar situation. I simply just called the courthouse, asked for the Judges assistant, and scheduled a meeting with him. He reduced my fine by 50%, and no points. |
The speed limit also has to be 35 or higher for this to apply.
Actually, upon reading this, now I think it sounds like they are saying that anything 35 or higher cannot be considered a "residential area" but it can still be a major thoroughfare even if the speed limit is less than 35. What got me thinking about that is that Winder, Monroe, and Social Circle all have the speed limit at less than 35 on some major thoroughfares such as Highway 11 in Monroe and Social Circle and this one street in Winder, the name of which I can't recall. I always thought that it had to be 35 or more for this to apply, but now I wonder. Hmmm. |
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Bazkook- I wouldn't bother regearing just to get the speedo right. You're looking at $700-1100to regear, and if you're gonna bother, you might as well put a locker in too, which is another $300-500 per diff. I think what AR Wrench was saying about the tach is just use it to indicate the speed you're driving. Just get a buddy with a stock car and follow him. Tell him to tap his brakes when he's going 35, 55, 65, 70,etc so you can see how fast the truck is going. Check on 4x4 wire, because you might be able to buy a replacement speedo gear (it's plastic and goes in the transfer case- it may cost $35-70) |
Yeah I'm not going to regear that's for sure. I could do it way cheaper than what you mentioned but I'm done pouring more money in the truck for now. I had to pay for the engine to be rebuilt($450),the tires($660),the truck itself($700),and other small things that came to about $100.But at least the truck runs great now. As for the tach method goes I think I'll either get a tach and try that or let my buddy drive beside me and mark the speedo with the correct speed instead. |
I don't plan on the truck seeing much street use because the tires are so aggressive and don't ride very smooth. But when I do hit the streets I'm going to very slow as to not attract Johnny Law.
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