Judging by the photo you have a 9mm SBR with a can.  SBRs & suppressors were always OK under the prior state law.  The current law purportedly allows MGs, but the ATF won't approve MGs in NC without a permit from the county sheriff until they receive a letter from the NCAG interpreting the new law such that the NCAG says a sheriff's permit isn't required.
 
 
 

Wow some bad info on here
First the BATF doing away with the CLEO signature! The BATF has been working on getting this changed but to do so they must get the US attorney general to sign off on the change! And Erick Holder who is the Attorney General a this time will not do this so till there is a new Attorney General appointed by a new administration this will not take place! The rumors that BATF is making up new forms that didn’t require a CLEO signature is just rumor at this point. The information above comes from the BATF I called and spoke with them on this matter. There statement was till a Attorney General  is appointed to the office that will sign off on the change it will not happen. And once on is appointed that it would take around two years before it went into effect.


As for the changes to NC NFA law the passing of this new law did take the question mark out of water a Trust can own NFA till the passing of the new law the NC Attorney General has stated that A Trust was not a vaulted entity to own NFA. Now with the way the new law was written it removed the question mark about Trust being able to own NFA. There is still a question about if a older trust before the change is valid or not!
And it did do away with the machinegun Permit! But till the NC Attorney General send the BATF a letter confirming the change BATF has stated there will be no changes to policy until they get a letter.

So all paper work is still the same as before if you move to NC you must file a 5320 and you mist attach a machinegun Permit signed by the sheriff of the county you are moving to if you don’t it will be kicked back to you unapproved.
Also what a lot of people don’t now is you don’t need a machinegun Permit for every machinegun you get. Once you have a machinegun Permit from your sheriff all you need to do is make a copy and send in with you paper work for each transfer.


Just keep in mind that when you summit transfer paperwork that is incorrect  all you do is slow down the transfers of the people who follow the rules.

And yes I am a 07/02 in North Carolina, I do transfers all the time and can’t understand whey someone would want to slow down a process  that already take a long time

I did not have to have a permit for the 5320, becuase I possesed them, hence they were already "approved". Now saying that I got a "permit" before I brought them here. Talking with Ms Snook (she did my 5320s), she said you only need the state permit for the form 4 (at least at the fed level) The bullshit catch 22 is that for the mill you cannot have a permit because in most cases you dont have a residence before you get here.

They f-ed up part in the locals do know know what the permit is, or what it should say. I had to tell the guy that I wanted a statement that the sherrif knew I had them and that I had fullfilled requirements

Very true.  Howvever, my thinking was that the new addition to 14-288.8 removed the "scientific and/or experimental purposes" requirement for NFA ownership in NC, not just for machineguns, but all NFA.  At least at the present time the NFA Branch doesn't agree, and is still requiring a reference to 14-288.8 and/or scientific or experimental purposes.

My department sold its old Reising SMG to someone to fund the purchase of some other equipment.  The form 4 he submitted for the transfer came back last week requesting a permit from the sheriff of his county of residence.  So, looks like NFA is still requiring that, at least at the moment.

A guy I know just got his back and it required it also.  Need to get a clarification on the law and update the NFA department on it.

My understanding is that the NFA branch isn't going to change its stance on requiring a permit until they get an opinion from the NC Attorney General saying that said permit is no longer required.  So, I'm not holding my breath on that.

I have a friend who's father is looking to sell a M11/9.  I need to track down the sheriff this week and see if he will give me a permit for said M11/9 before I start selling off stuff I don't need to fund the purchase.  No point if the sheriff won't give me the permit.  Still, this might be one of the few NFA related things where being a LEO might actually help me, all be it for a local permit rather than a transfer approval.  I'll ask, the worst he can say is no.  I'll probably be moving out of state sometime in the next few years anyway, and I can always wait until then to get into the machinegun game if I have to.

If you do get the M11/9

 

I'm on the waiting list already for a M11/22 and Max-31.  Worst case scenario is that I have the stuff from Lage and no gun because the Sheriff won't give me a permit.  If that happens, when I move I'll buy one.  The state I am probably moving to is MG friendly and no permit is required.  I am planning on stocking up on drums for the Max-31 now, as I expect the supply to eventually dry up, at least the reasonably priced supply.  That already seems to have happened with the coffin magazines.

Coffin are up to 50 bucks in most places.  I am finding drums for 25 to 30.

 

Wow, lots of activity here lately.






No surprise there.  How long do you think it'll take the NCAG to reinterpret the new law?


 

When is hell scheduled to freeze over?  

ETA:  I talked to the sheriff today and he told me that provided I passed the standard handgun permit background check (no problem) he would give me a permit for a machinegun.  So, that hurdle is past.  Now I need to get the deal worked out and find the money.

Great news!

What county are you in?





 

Not trying to offend but giving out county /sheriff's names that will sign a mg permit on a public forum is the reason most sheriff's will NOT sign a MG permit for anyone. So please just provide that info per pm if you will. Btw congrats I hope you get it!

Blackops_1.

Anyone had any dealings getting signatures in Guilford County? Just moved into Guilford from Randolph County and was wondering what to expect before I head down to the office.

Any updates to this thread? It sounds as if the ATF isn't going to change their policies until they have word from the NC AG. And we all know the NC AG isn't going to do anythying with it unless he has to. Why is Cooper opposed to guns?? And why isn't there a pro-gun candidate running for office in November??  My impression is that the legislature has made a decision on this (can you say... "we the people"), but the AG is holding things up.   How about an email campaign to flood the AG's mailbox asking for the letter to ATF??

Anyone have a good format to write to AG Cooper?

Anyone know if the Sheriff of Brunswick county will sign?

See BlackOps post above.

I have an AR pistol I want to SBR. I heard that you dont need a sheriffs signature, but any cleo will do. Be it a judge, DA or city PD chief. The particular county I live in, it is hard to get the sheriff to sign NFA stuff. In fact he wont at all. I just want to confirm its any CLEO. I wish I could find where I read that but I cant. Anyone know how true this is?
Thanks!

yes-go to the atf website, they have a faq read it



 

I was told by a local shop he wont sign but i never have tried to ask.  I too am intrested in building a sbr but this is my hurdle in my way.  I dont want to go the trust route.

Any CLEO that has jurisdiction where you live can sign.  That means the sheriff of your county, the DA of your judicial district, a judge in your judicial district, or a chief of police of a city or town where you live.  If you live outside the PDs jurisdiction (1+ mile outside the city limits) then the chief of the PD cannot sign.  The only NFA item that is "sheriff only" is a machinegun.  That is because NC law requires a permit from the sheriff for a machinegun (or at least it did, and the NFA branch has not revised its opinion on that since the law change on 12/01/2011).

Can anyone suggest a good trust lawyer in the Central NC area?  Someone who is reasonable (I can't see paying someone 400.00 for a boilerplate gun trust) and hopefully knows guns, isn't just doing it to make extra cash between ambulance chasing.

I know my Sheriff refuses to sign ANY NFA so the trust is the only way for me to go.

What are the informed opinions on the Scientific & Experimental Purposes angle?

I live in SC, however frankly it would make me extremely nervous to possess a can or SBR in NC-  what if some JBT decides I don't sufficiently look "scientific"?

Not sure a trust matters for an MG; I think you still need a permit for one.  SBRs &  cans are OK.



 

Do you need the signature for each purchase/build or can you get a signature one time in letter format and reuse it for multiple guns?

Thanks
Wes

Machinegun permits are a one time thing from what I understand, once you get one, you just send copies of it along with the other paperwork.  Everything else, including form 4 for MG transfers, requires a new signature each time.  Each form has to be signed, so it wouldn't be possible to get one signature and be done.  However, the signature requirement might eventually be eliminated.

Jeff - Any answers back in PM / email?  If so, would you mind passing the info on to me?

The problem is since the state rule is so stupid, it actually varies fromm county to county as their is no standard

True enough, I actually provided the language for my machinegun permit to the Sheriff of my county.  His secretary typed it up, and he sighed it.  He also signed my form 4.  

I found myself wondering if I could get the police chief to sign off on a form 4 for a machinegun so long as I provided a permit from the Sheriff also.  I wonder how the NFA Branch would respond to that.

I copied and pasted this from subguns.com.  This is great news for NFA in NC!


Hello Fellow NFA owners in NC. I have some good news.

After having numerous Form 4 request kicked back over the last 10 months because of the verbiage in Section 15. We had for years used "Scientific Research, Experimentation, Collection, Investment & Sport Shooting", for all NON-MG transfers. Others have used "Investment, Collection and All Legal Purposes".

BATFE - NFA has for the last 9-10 months has constantly kicked back forms of all types stating that "All NFA Transfers other than MG's must refer to NC statute 14-288.8 (or Research, development, experimentation)" They further said "Remove current highlighted statement in box 15 and replace with NC Statue 14-288.8"

Well before Christmas I had such a rejection for a customer and when I redacted his form and resubmitted the form, I enclosed a letter along with copies of the statutes 14-288.8 and 14-409 and I highlighted the portions that were changed by HB650 in 2011. I expressed my disappointment in the fact that as cocrafter of the verbiage that became law Dec 1st 2011, that it was still not being utilized by NFA and that forms continued to be returned for reasons that should be acceptable. There was far more to the communications, but that’s the broad view.

Today I received that transfer back approved and yet in another envelope I received another kicked back form 4.

I was a little disappointed that no correspondence had been returned with approved form and that it was compounded with yet another kick back.

I decided to call the examiner, Mr. Dana Pickles. Mr. Pickles was incredibly professional and told me that he did remember my packet. He said back in 2011 when he received notification from many people that the law was changing that he had went to the NFA Legal team and ask them to look at said changes. At that time they had come back and said they had not seen any changes.
He stated that he continued to receive calls and then receiving my letter and documentation. He decided to take my letter back to the NFA Legal team and ask them to please review this again. The NFA Legal Team reviewed my material and reached out their people in NC. Mr. Pickles then said And a "long story short as of the 11th of January there was a new way of doing business in NC"
A memo has been circulated to all examiners and he was gracious enough to email me a copy of said memo and to elaborate on the changes.

Mr. Pickles relayed to me the following:

As of January 11th 2013:

1. SOT transfer for MG's no longer require a NC MG PERMIT

2. Non-Sot transfers of machineguns no longer require a permit UNLESS you put Scientific research and/or experimentation or reference 14-409 in section 15. If you use those reasons you will need a permit, apparently because of where they are placed in the statute regarding the permit.. The if any other Federally acceptable reason was used in section 15 such as (Collection, Investment, Sport Shooting etc) that the transfer would proceed without a permit. He further stated that this was also applicable to Trust and LLC's.
(side note: it is ironic that the verbiage that used to be required, is the verbiage that now will get you zinged and require a permit, but all other Federally acceptable reasons will not require a permit)

3. All other transfers (NON MG) no longer had to conform to the verbiage of/nor refer to NC 14-288.8

attached is the Email from Mr. Pickles and he advised in the interim period for all new transfers to print and enclose a copy of this email, just in case another examiner happened to be assisting him.

Mr. Pickles also stated to "not be surprised" if some forms were still kicked back if another examiner happened to be helping him out with NC, that it would take some time to filter through, but that enclosing said email would aid in preventing kickbacks. He also said that forms already in the system may be kicked back, but just to send them back with a copy of this email.

Many thanks to Mr. Pickles for going above and beyond in his efforts.
He has my Personal gratitude... as do my partners at the NC NFA DA and GRNC for the tireless years of efforts in enacting these changes.

Jeff Lawrence
President NC NFA Defense Association.

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i442/jefflaw45/NEW-ATF_zpsb71aa3bf.jpg

I wanted to let everyone in NC know that today we the NC NFA Defense Association rec'd acknowledgement from the NFA  branch of the ATF that after legal review of the Dec 2011 change in the NC Law, they  confirmed an MG permit from the Sheriff is no longer required based on the following conditions.

Below is an email explanation from my co-chair and president of the NC NFA DA  Jeff Lawrence along with a link to the email he rec'd from Dana Pickles NFA Examiner

As of January 11th 2013:

1. SOT transfer for MG's no longer require a NC MG PERMIT

2. Non-Sot transfers of machineguns no longer require a permit UNLESS you put Scientific research and/or experimentation or reference 14-409 in section 15. If you use those reasons you will need a permit, apparently because of where they are placed in the statute regarding the permit.. The if any other Federally acceptable reason was used in section 15 such as (Collection, Investment, Sport Shooting etc) that the transfer would proceed without a permit. He further stated that this was also applicable to Trust and LLC's.
(side note: it is ironic that the verbiage that used to be required, is the verbiage that now will get you zinged and require a permit, but all other Federally acceptable reasons will not require a permit)

3. All other transfers (NON MG) no longer had to conform to the verbiage of/nor refer to NC 14-288.8

attached is the Email from Mr. Pickles and he advised in the interim period for all new transfers to print and enclose a copy of this email, just in case another examiner happened to be assisting him.

Mr. Pickles also stated to "not be surprised" if some forms were still kicked back if another examiner happened to be helping him out with NC, that it would take some time to filter through, but that enclosing said email would aid in preventing kickbacks. He also said that forms already in the system may be kicked back, but just to send them back with a copy of this email.

Many thanks to Mr. Pickles for going above and beyond in his efforts.
He has my Personal gratitude... as do my partners at the NC NFA DA and GRNC for the tireless years of efforts in enacting these changes.

Jeff Lawrence
President NC NFA Defense Association.
[email protected]

http://i1094.photobucket.com/albums/i442/jefflaw45/NEW-ATF_zpsb71aa3bf.jpg


Regards

TB

So, does this mean that we don't have to have the sheriff's signature at all to possess a MG, or does it mean we have to have a permit to own and possess the MG, but not to transfer it?

No MG Permit is needed.  Still have to get CLEO signiture on Form1 or 4 unless you use a trust.

YAY!!!  MGs under a trust!!!!!

Is this for real?  We can finally put a MG on a Trust?  If so it is ABOUT DAMN TIME.   I am happy as can be about this.    I live in Forsyth county.  Can anyone recommend someone to either help with the setup of a Trust or someone who can do it for a fee?  I am gonna get on this quick if all this turns out to be true.

have bought a mg yet? might want to check those prices



 

Are you implying that I have never even looked at the prices?  And furthermore what knowledge do you have about what I do for a living or how much money I make?  Or what knowledge do you have of what bills I have in my life, if any, other than the basics?  Do you know whether or not I am a married man with 10 brats to feed or am I a single man who has no one other than himself to pay for?  Thereby allowing him the freedom to buy whatever he can afford for himself.  Can you answer those questions?  Just wondering.  Oh and one last qustion,  do you own a MG?

Don't be a , it was just a question. I asked because like most people that see me at the range, "OMG I'm gonna get one" until then they find out how much they were. You know they all just went up right?

It sounds like you will be a gem to the NFA community with that piss poor attitude.

Yes I own a few as well as cans, SBRs, and SBs but then again you probably didn't read this entire thread.

If you were really serious and had so much money, you would get a  rental property in a decent county and then get one. More than one person Ive met at the range has done this with great effect

Thats the pot calling the kettle black.  Your question was arrogant.  You implyed I was ignorant.  So who has the "piss poor attitude".  I knew full well you had a MG.  Thats why I asked the qustion to prove a point.  Every single guy I have met who has full auto is arrogant.  They think just because they own something that most people either don't have or can't afford somehow makes them special.   Guess what it doesn't.  It just makes you arrogant.  And I am assuming that you know ATF has prosecuted people for claiming to live somewhere they actually don't in order to obtain Class III.  You may own the property but if you don't actually live there then it is not your residence.   Yeh there may be people who do it and have gotten away with it but I don't care to take that chance with the Feds.  And one last thing since when did I say I had "so much money" or even imply that?  I didn't.  I said "whatever he can AFFORD for himself".  That does not imply in and of itself having "so much money".     And if I do get a MG I will not be a part of any "NFA community".    I will just be another guy who owns another gun.  No different from anyone else.

so me a case.





On the fed level it does not matter which county you are in, they don't care. You can move within a state and it does not matter. The only people that care are the  up NC law makers as this stupid county permit only pertains to NC.
ETA they even have a section in the green book about dual residences.
EDITED FOR LANGUAGE
 

Penile Length Contests aside, I was curious about that as well, CAN trusts now get MGs without the MG permit from the CLEO?

And more importantly, there was a guy at the Raleigh show this past weekend advertising Trust setups at 120.00 for "simple" and well over $600 for "complex"...

Is it worth that, I seem to keep running into about 50/50 on "you can set it up yourself on your computer for 30 bucks in an hour" and "you must have a lawyer do it and pay out the ass".

As someone interested in starting up a trust (for SBRs and cans), is there a right answer, or at least a more right answer, and if "lawyer" is the proper answer, who's worth looking into that isn't one of those cookie-cutter guntrustlawyer.com types? (I've also read not so flattering things about them basically stamping out trusts and grossly overcharging clients)

go to the class 3 forum and see about trust. They are easy to do and you just have to get it notarized and sent off. The gunshow prices are way too expensive.

 

ok,

to get this straight,

without a trust,

i can now do a .20, put for collection, for all legal purposes, etc. in block 15,

and bring a mg i already own to nc without a leo pwrmit or signature and i am good to go.

thank you.

That seems to be what Mr. Pickles is saying, I guess we won't know for sure until someone does it.

 

I will let you know how a 5320.20 for permanent change of address goes.

Anyone here in Hoke county that can PM me regarding our Sheriff's willingness to sign for an SBR? Thanks.

Carl

If anyone from GRNC or NCNFADA reads this thread, pls IM me.  Thanks.