Posted: 5/6/2009 9:18:28 AM EDT
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I'll be heading up to South Carolina (from Florida) this weekend to staty for a couple of days. I just realized that South Carolina now offerc Concealed Carry Permit reciprocity with Florida. Does anyone know where I can find a concise list of "off limits" areas for carrying in the state? Any recommendations/guideline for trouble-free carrying?
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For business simply opting to post against CWP: there are strict signage requirements as to size, content, and placement of signs. "Any old sign" isn't legal.
Thread contains info on "no guns" signage requirements Other than that, there's the short list of enumerated places (automatically off limits): Any public building (exception, state parks) grounds are OK Any police station, jail, or prison Any polling place Any school, college or university (includes the grounds) Any polling place Any hospital or doctor's office Any place with an "on premises" alcohol sales license (WARNING: get caught here an you'll get mandatory 3 years in prison upon conviction and suffer a permanent firearms disability!) Carry in state parks is LEGAL. You must inform LE that you are carrying if stopped You may have your loaded handgun in your glovebox or center console (doesn't have to be locked) DO NOT put your handgun in the door's side pouch or under the seat. |
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See below. Did you do this from memory or can you cite the source? I think you have 2 wrong.
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For business simply opting to post against CWP: there are strict signage requirements as to size, content, and placement of signs. "Any old sign" isn't legal. Thread contains info on "no guns" signage requirements Other than that, there's the short list of enumerated places (automatically off limits): Any public building (exception, state parks) grounds are OK By "PUBLIC" I assume you mean government? Any police station, jail, or prison Any polling place Any school, college or university (includes the grounds) Any polling place Any hospital or doctor's office Any place with an "on premises" alcohol sales license (WARNING: get caught here an you'll get mandatory 3 years in prison upon conviction and suffer a permanent firearms disability!) I thought that it was only illegal to carry if the business's PRIMARY sales were alcohol example Bar. I thought Restaurants that also serve alcohol are ok as long as you are not drinking. Carry in state parks is LEGAL. You must inform LE that you are carrying if stopped You may have your loaded handgun in your glovebox or center console (doesn't have to be locked) DO NOT put your handgun in the door's side pouch or under the seat. |
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Quoted:
See below. Did you do this from memory or can you cite the source? I think you have 2 wrong. Quoted:
For business simply opting to post against CWP: there are strict signage requirements as to size, content, and placement of signs. "Any old sign" isn't legal. Thread contains info on "no guns" signage requirements Other than that, there's the short list of enumerated places (automatically off limits): Any public building (exception, state parks) grounds are OK By "PUBLIC" I assume you mean government? Any police station, jail, or prison Any polling place Any school, college or university (includes the grounds) Any polling place Any hospital or doctor's office Any place with an "on premises" alcohol sales license (WARNING: get caught here an you'll get mandatory 3 years in prison upon conviction and suffer a permanent firearms disability!) I thought that it was only illegal to carry if the business's PRIMARY sales were alcohol example Bar. I thought Restaurants that also serve alcohol are ok as long as you are not drinking. Carry in state parks is LEGAL. You must inform LE that you are carrying if stopped You may have your loaded handgun in your glovebox or center console (doesn't have to be locked) DO NOT put your handgun in the door's side pouch or under the seat. "Public" - Municipally-owned CWP Carry into any establishment with an "on premises" alcohol permit is prohibited. PERIOD. There is no exception, and there is no "51% rule" in South Carolina. If there was, it'd be in writing in our states CWP law. Technically, there are no "bars"...only establishments with on-premises permits. |
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http://www.sled.sc.gov/SCStateGunLaws1.aspx
The above link is a complete listing of SC gun laws including concealed carry law. Another thing to remember: in order to legally carry in another person's dwelling (that includes someone elses rented room/hotel/motel room) you must have their express permission. |
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Quoted:
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See below. Did you do this from memory or can you cite the source? I think you have 2 wrong. Quoted:
For business simply opting to post against CWP: there are strict signage requirements as to size, content, and placement of signs. "Any old sign" isn't legal. Thread contains info on "no guns" signage requirements Other than that, there's the short list of enumerated places (automatically off limits): Any public building (exception, state parks) grounds are OK By "PUBLIC" I assume you mean government? Any police station, jail, or prison Any polling place Any school, college or university (includes the grounds) Any polling place Any hospital or doctor's office Any place with an "on premises" alcohol sales license (WARNING: get caught here an you'll get mandatory 3 years in prison upon conviction and suffer a permanent firearms disability!) I thought that it was only illegal to carry if the business's PRIMARY sales were alcohol example Bar. I thought Restaurants that also serve alcohol are ok as long as you are not drinking. Carry in state parks is LEGAL. You must inform LE that you are carrying if stopped You may have your loaded handgun in your glovebox or center console (doesn't have to be locked) DO NOT put your handgun in the door's side pouch or under the seat. "Public" - Municipally-owned CWP Carry into any establishment with an "on premises" alcohol permit is prohibited. PERIOD. There is no exception, and there is no "51% rule" in South Carolina. If there was, it'd be in writing in our states CWP law. Technically, there are no "bars"...only establishments with on-premises permits. ThePontificator, Thanks for the clarification. This scares me a little. Do you have anywhere it is referenced? I checked the link in the post after yours but I do not see where it says about alcohol serving establishments. The reason I call it scary is that on 4 different occasions I have been told that it is OK as long as it is not a "bar". We were told this by our class instructor. I have also asked 3 seperate active duty police officers at 3 different times about the law and they all said it was legal as long as it is not a bar and you are not drinking. I will not admit here that I have carried in any establishment that serves alcohol, but I will say I will have to be careful if what you say is true. You sound like you know what you are talking about, but I hope you are wrong. 
ETA: POST 500!!! |
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YOUR INSTRUCTOR IS WRONG - HOW COULD HE OR SHE POSSIBLY TEACH OTHERWISE?
SECTION 16-23-465. Additional penalty for unlawfully carrying pistol or firearm onto premises of business selling alcoholic liquors, beers or wines for on premises consumption. In addition to the penalties provided for by Sections 16 11 330 and 16 23 460 and by Article 1 of Chapter 23 of Title 16, a person convicted of carrying a pistol or firearm into a business which sells alcoholic liquor, beer, or wine for consumption on the premises is guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, must be fined not more than two thousand dollars or imprisoned not more than three years, or both. In addition to the penalties described above, a person who violates this section while carrying a concealable weapon pursuant to Article 4, Chapter 31, Title 23, must have his concealed weapon permit revoked. |
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The problem with SC gun law in regard to "on premises carry" is that nowhere does it specifically say you cannot carry into establishments like that....it only specifies a 'punishment' (see above).
Grassroots South Carolina (now Grassroots Gun Rights) challenged this not long after the CWP law was passed back in 1996. SLED said "NO" and the State AG (Charles Condon) backed them up. Nothing's changed since then. |
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That law is so poorly written it is sad.
I read it. I also read the referenced laws. SECTION 16-23-460 says it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon. So is this saying it is illegal to carry an illegal weapon onto premises or that it is illegal to carry a legal weapon. It doesn't specify. These sections 460 and 465 are add ons for carrying illegally. When I carry concealed and I am licensed, I am not carrying illegally. I am not saying you are wrong. But I don't think you are right. I am going to call the AG office tomorrow. I will try to get someone on record with a name and position to officially take a stance. |
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[span style='font-weight: bold;']Quoted:[
ThePontificator, Thanks for the clarification. I will not admit here that I have carried in any establishment that serves alcohol, but I will say I will have to be careful if what you say is true. You sound like you know what you are talking about, but I hope you are wrong.
I am not wrong, and your weak admission is in line with Bill Clinton saying a BJ isn't sex. Don't do that here. It demeans us all. |
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[span style='font-weight: bold;']Quoted:[
ThePontificator, Thanks for the clarification. I will not admit here that I have carried in any establishment that serves alcohol, but I will say I will have to be careful if what you say is true. You sound like you know what you are talking about, but I hope you are wrong.
I am not wrong, and your weak admission is in line with Bill Clinton saying a BJ isn't sex. Don't do that here. It demeans us all. Wow, you got ugly fast. Up too late? BTW, there was no weak admission, just a comment that I will have to be careful going forward if you are right, but thanks for the comparison anyway. |
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That law is so poorly written it is sad. I read it. I also read the referenced laws. SECTION 16-23-460 says it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon. So is this saying it is illegal to carry an illegal weapon onto premises or that it is illegal to carry a legal weapon. It doesn't specify. These sections 460 and 465 are add ons for carrying illegally. When I carry concealed and I am licensed, I am not carrying illegally. I am not saying you are wrong. But I don't think you are right. I am going to call the AG office tomorrow. I will try to get someone on record with a name and position to officially take a stance. If you get an "official answer" please let us know here. I don't want to make any missteps. It was confusing when I read the states law because there are specifically enumerated places where you cannot carry up there, and premises that sell alcohol are not on that enumerated list. I intend to err on the side of caution, but I'd hate to wind up on the wrong side of the law by stepping into a mom and pop diner only to discover once I look at the menu that hey serve beer/wine. Oops. |
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I am going to call the AG office tomorrow. I will try to get someone on record with a name and position to officially take a stance. If you get an "official answer" please let us know here. [sarcasm on] I LOVE OUR GOVERNMENT!! [sarcasm off] OK, I called the AG office first thing this morning, no call back. I called SLED this morning. Spoke with a gentleman who said he was an agent but would not say what kind. He says that if you have a CWP you are not carrying illegally so this law does not apply to you. But he also suggested he was not a lawyer so he would suggest calling my local solicitor to see if they would use this law to prosecute. I like how he said his interpretation was NOT official. How does he enforce laws if he does not know what the interpretation of the law is?!?!?!?! So then I called our local solicitor's office. No call back yet. So then I called my local police office. I spoke with a very nice lady who gave me her name and her position. She is the community relations officer and she verified my question with the investigator on duty. The both agreed that if you are carrying with CWP and are not drinking and it is not a bar then you are not breaking the law. I then went to the Charleston county sheriff website where I was reading the rules for concealed weapon carry. There it says it is illegal to carry in any establishment that serves alcohol on the premises. NOTHING LIKE ANSWERS AS CLEAR AS MUD FROM OUR WONDERFUL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS. If they don't know the law, then how the hell can they enforce it?!?!?!?!?!? Oh, and BTW, don't forget about the 3 separate officers that told me on 3 occasions prior to this that it was ok as long as it was not a bar and you are not drinking. I will post more info as I get it. Hopefully the soliciter will call me back. |
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UPDATE:
I spoke to Officer Richard Hunton at SLED. He said that without a doubt it is AGAINST THE STATE LAW to concealed carry in ANY premises selling alcohol for on site consumption. He said that while other agencies might not enforce the law that THEY WILL and if caught you WILL BE PROSECUTED. ThePontificator - you were right sir and I apologise for any confusion I may have caused. I am going to call my CWP instructor and tell him he is wrong as well and he should change his class. Now we need to work on getting the law changed. I am off to grass roots south carolina's website...... |
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UPDATE: I spoke to Officer Richard Hunton at SLED. He said that without a doubt it is AGAINST THE STATE LAW to concealed carry in ANY premises selling alcohol for on site consumption. He said that while other agencies might not enforce the law that THEY WILL and if caught you WILL BE PROSECUTED. ThePontificator - you were right sir and I apologise for any confusion I may have caused. I am going to call my CWP instructor and tell him he is wrong as well and he should change his class. Now we need to work on getting the law changed. I am off to grass roots south carolina's website...... Thanks for the info! I think I'll leave the piece in the car if I stop to eat anywhere other than fast food, just to play it safe. 
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The bottom line on carry in establishments with on-premises alchol licenses is this: it's prohibited
The prohibition stands by way of an opinion issued by the state attorney general's office who in turn considered the recommendation of SLED regulatory. That agency interprets the wording of the law (a punishment for carrying a gun into such an establishment) to be a prohibition. Then State Attorney General Charles Condon agreed. Present State Attorney General Henry McMaster has not overruled Condon's opinion. This is the way it's been for almost 12 years. Grassroots South Carolina (now Grassroots Gunrights) found what they perceived to be a loophole, presented their opinion to SLED and the state attorney general's office, and lost. In 2002 a legislative attempt to rescind the prohibition also failed. Until the law gets changed: game over. It doesn't matter what your CWP instructor told you or what "some cop" told you or what you "overheard at a gun store". It's prohibited. There is no "51% rule" in South Carolina. It doesn't exist. The state dept. of revenue makes no disctinction between a roadhouse, a country club golf lounge, a fern bar-restaurant or a mom-and-pop convenience store with an on-premise beer license left over from the days of video poker. In the eyes of the state, the on-premises licenses they hold are all the same. This will not change until the law is changed. You can call SLED regulatory and the Henry McMaster's office from now until the end of time but until the laws are changed you will get the same answer: "No." If you are caught and convicted of carrying a firearm in to an establishment licensed to sell alchol on-premises in the State of South Carolina...violation of South Carolina Gun Law... you can expect the following: 1. A mandatory three year prison sentence 2. A fine 3. Classification as a convicted felon because you will have served a prison sentence of more than one year even though the law is a misdemeanor. 4. A lifetime firearms disability 5. And like it matters at this point, permanent revocation of your CWP. If you think I'm making this up please feel free to call SLED regulatory services at the following number: (803).896-7099 And you can call State Attorney General Henry McMaster's office at the following number: (803) 734-3970 Until the law gets changed, It's prohibited. At least the law was amended in 2002 to read that "premises" no longer longer included the grounds and parking lot of such an establishment. Back in 1998 SLED's interpretation was that such grounds and parking lots were considered 'off limits' as well. I consider this matter closed. If any of you self-styled 'experts' on SC gun law would care to make yourselves a test case please post it to this forum. ETA: SC CWP law was also amended as to allow carry in buildings at interstate rest stops. |
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The bottom line on carry in establishments with on-premises alcohol licenses is this: it's prohibited [snip] Yeah, that's pretty much what I said above, isn't it? You sure are pretty defensive in your posts. I agree it doesn't matter what my CWP instructor or "some cop" says. It also certainly doesn't matter what "ThePontificator" says on ARF.com either. You may have been proved right this time, but to keep myself and my family safe, I went to the authority to get a ruling. Sorry you got offended. (Well, I'm not sorry you got offended, you really should chill out  )
It is unfortunate the law is interpreted like this, it really is not very specific. Hopefully the different organizations can make a stand to get the wording and the interpretation changed. I encourage anyone who wants to find out for themselves first hand to call the above numbers. Be careful, though, because as I found out today it really matters who you talk to. I got as many responses that it was legal (even from SLED) as I did that it was illegal. It is a sad state of affairs when our own government agencies cannot even have consistency from one desk to the next, but that is a whole different subject. |
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And if there's this much confusion over one part of the law in one state, and we're supposed to keep up w/ laws in any state we may find ourselves, it's fairly easy to slip up somewhere. After I started learning about all this stuff, it was like a light bulb went off in my head, every time I saw someone, regular joe, or celebrity, on the news getting popped for weapons charges of some kind, I realized that previously I would have probably subconsciously believed the media and assumed the worst. Not to say that sometimes these things don't happen due to intentional wrong doing, or through carelessness not even trying to understand the laws, but I can see how someone making an effort to stay within the law could make a misstep while trying to protect themselves in a given state...
NC has a similar law too, although off the top of my head, can't remember the punishment in NC, but seeing as I spend most of my time in either NC or SC, this is one of the laws that really bugs me. Some would say allow it, especially if you are not drinking, but I would take it a step further. Why is it I can go into a bar, have a beer, wait a sufficient amount of time before driving and be legal, OR I can drive myself to the bar, have my car keys on me the whole time, get completely obliterated and take a cab home and be legal. I could have driven at any point in time while intoxicated, but chose not to in that scenario. Why should the law on firearms be any different than the laws on drunk driving? Whether I'm at a bar or at home, if you get in your car and drive drunk, you're still driving drunk. But I can sit in my house w/ my sidearm and drink if I choose, but somehow if I'm in a public place where alcohol is being consumed, or worse yet I might actually consume one, or more, suddenly I'm a menace to society if I'm carrying the same sidearm I had at home drinking? What is more likely to happen, drive buzzed/drunk, or start shooting up the place? And yet you don't have to leave your keys in your car every time you walk into a place that serves alcohol. I understand some laws are written for the lowest common denominator of society, but it just bugs me that some feel it necessary to make these kinds of laws up. I mean if you actually shot someone while intoxicated, you should be scrutinized even more to make sure it was a justified shoot, whether it happened at home or out in public. But just because you're intoxicated, or worse yet only in the presence of others drinking, particularly at a family restaurant, doesn't mean you're gonna start handling your sidearm for no apparent reason, or start shooting up the place. Regards, Karz |