[ARCHIVED THREAD] - TargetMasters, Columbia, Mo!!!! (Page 1 of 4)
Posted: 7/19/2012 1:30:05 PM EDT
Support them when you can!!!
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Quoted:
Do you know how hard it is for someone who is age 60+ with arthritis to shoot seventy rounds out of a revolver? Or a guy with a pacemaker that shouldn't be shooting hundreds of rounds . Or a guy who is disabled and cannot pull a trigger 140 times . Bullshit .... |
| Awful, Awful place. I was a member many years ago, but dropped it. Went in there for the first time in ages a few months ago, and I will never return. The place is a dump, the store is empty, they are not friendly, prices are ridiculous, etc. It is a waste of space. |
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Uh, actually there's more to the story than any one knows.
Some of Target Masters affiliations have changed in the last year. That's about all I have to say about that other than once in a while you will see me there. I haven't used their range in decades. Buy brass from them a couple times a year. Jason has sold Target Master's owner a Perkins Custom 1911. I've met the guy and he seems ok by me. That said, I have membership at Ammo Alley. Most of my indoor range time is at night. Like 6pm to 2am kind of night. You can for just $200.00 a year have unlimited access (24/7) to climate controlled range. Last there it was 100 outside and 70 inside. |
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I wasn't aware of their part in changing the law, but I do know that where I got my CCW (and now volunteer as a coach for) we fire 100 revolver and 100 auto. Plenty of old-timers go through and do it just fine.
As for target masters, they are close to my house and I've never had a bad experience with them, I go when I can-nice bunch of guys. |
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I got a chuckle from the manager (owner? I don't know) I called up there a few years ago when they were looking for someone to clean up their lead in the back stops after the scrap price collapsed.
He thought I should clean the back stops, and then pay them for the lead! I laughed and hung up. |
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No, I don't care to share the story. Rail on'em all you want.
Part of the story is a member here. Just know the same people who pushed for your right to carry, pushed for increasing round count. I'm not friends or affiliated with person or persons you're wanting to rail on. You should do your own homework. I've no obligation or interest in doing it for you. My one thought on increasing round count is simple. Raises the bar on CCW holders. I can see flip side of the coin too. You guys in the business of CCW classes have gone to cutting each others throats by furnishing ammunition. A few are supplying guns from what I hear. The day I can't run both revolver and semi-auto one hundred rounds each is the day I should forfeit my CCW. Sad it is to know an elderly man or woman who's lost driving privileges. Nobody wants to share the road with someone who shouldn't be driving. I don't want to be on the same block as someone who shouldn't be packing. Now I've likely pissed off 3 CCW instructors in forum I call friends. Oh, Well. Let the flaming begin. 
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Care to share what part of the story we dint know? Otherwise they are going to remain the scape goat for this bullshit. I could care less either way. Just wondering. |
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Quoted:
No, I don't care to share the story. Rail on'em all you want. Part of the story is a member here. Just know the same people who pushed for your right to carry, pushed for increasing round count. I'm not friends or affiliated with person or persons you're wanting to rail on. You should do your own homework. I've no obligation or interest in doing it for you. My one thought on increasing round count is simple. Raises the bar on CCW holders. I can see flip side of the coin too. You guys in the business of CCW classes have gone to cutting each others throats by furnishing ammunition. A few are supplying guns from what I hear. The day I can't run both revolver and semi-auto one hundred rounds each is the day I should forfeit my CCW. Sad it is to know an elderly man or woman who's lost driving privileges. Nobody wants to share the road with someone who shouldn't be driving. I don't want to be on the same block as someone who shouldn't be packing. Now I've likely pissed off 3 CCW instructors in forum I call friends. Oh, Well. Let the flaming begin.
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Care to share what part of the story we dint know? Otherwise they are going to remain the scape goat for this bullshit. I could care less either way. Just wondering. Na, I won't jump your shit. Old people don't deserve to defend themselves, just as the man with arthritis I had to take my time giving the class to . Fuck 'em. |
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Your right, they've lived long enough . Fuckem. Here is a thought maybe supplying the guns allows for making sure the firearms are in good working order or perhaps a test drive to find the right firearm. I don't own any revolvers , don't care to. Should I buy something that I'll never use just to take a test?
For somebody who seems to have a lot of knowledge, that seems to be a ignorant statement. |
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Quoted:
My one thought on increasing round count is simple. Raises the bar on CCW holders. I can see flip side of the coin too. You guys in the business of CCW classes have gone to cutting each others throats by furnishing ammunition. A few are supplying guns from what I hear. The day I can't run both revolver and semi-auto one hundred rounds each is the day I should forfeit my CCW. Sad it is to know an elderly man or woman who's lost driving privileges. Nobody wants to share the road with someone who shouldn't be driving. I don't want to be on the same block as someone who shouldn't be packing. Ok, so let's just increase it to 1000 rounds out of a revolver, and 1000 rounds out of a semi-auto. That will make everyone proficient. Now an 8-hr course becomes 2 hrs of class, and 6 hrs of shooting. How many people do really think anyone is going to take the 12 hr / $200 class, when they can take an 8-hr for $100?? And how you throw people who have arthritis into the same group that have alzheimers/dementia is beyond me. I know plenty of 50-60 year olds that have arthritis, but can still drive a car just as well as you or I. Seriously, WTF are you talking about??????? I don't care about the cost. It's about $3 extra in ammo, so that's not a big deal to me or anyone else providing it. It was a big win for those that SELL it to their students for 3-4x that. The big pain in the ass is the extra time it takes to load an extra 70 rounds of .22LR and how long it takes someone with weak hands to shoot it. I had a beautiful 105 lbs, 35 y/o lady with tiny hands in a class––she couldn't cock a revolver, nor pull it through double action. She did just fine with a semi-auto, but it took here 30+ mins to get through 70 rounds with a revolver (something she will NEVER own or carry.) Under the old system, 20 rounds and she would have been done. Same goes for the three ladies in their mid-60s. BTW, they all bought semi-autos and can drive just fine. EDIT: Almost ALL of us supply the guns. 80% of the people in my classes do not own a gun––they are takaing the class to learn about them, get advice on what to buy, and decide whether or not they want to take on the responsibility of safely CCW'ing. Most get their permits, some do not. It's easier to train them on our guns, so what they see in class is what they are going to handle on the range. Most do not have 5-10 magazines or speed loaders either.....have the people waiting to shoot practice loading magazine while the others are shooting them. Plus, I don't want to be held liable when their reloads or $125 Jimenez blows up in their face. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
My one thought on increasing round count is simple. Raises the bar on CCW holders. I can see flip side of the coin too. You guys in the business of CCW classes have gone to cutting each others throats by furnishing ammunition. A few are supplying guns from what I hear. The day I can't run both revolver and semi-auto one hundred rounds each is the day I should forfeit my CCW. Sad it is to know an elderly man or woman who's lost driving privileges. Nobody wants to share the road with someone who shouldn't be driving. I don't want to be on the same block as someone who shouldn't be packing. Ok, so let's just increase it to 1000 rounds out of a revolver, and 1000 rounds out of a semi-auto. That will make everyone proficient. Now an 8-hr course becomes 2 hrs of class, and 6 hrs of shooting. How many people do really think anyone is going to take the 12 hr / $200 class, when they can take an 8-hr for $100?? And how you throw people who have arthritis into the same group that have alzheimers/dementia is beyond me. I know plenty of 50-60 year olds that have arthritis, but can still drive a car just as well as you or I. Seriously, WTF are you talking about??????? I don't care about the cost. It's about $3 extra in ammo, so that's not a big deal to me or anyone else providing it. It was a big win for those that SELL it to their students for 3-4x that. The big pain in the ass is the extra time it takes to load an extra 70 rounds of .22LR and how long it takes someone with weak hands to shoot it. I had a beautiful 105 lbs, 35 y/o lady with tiny hands in a class––she couldn't cock a revolver, nor pull it through double action. She did just fine with a semi-auto, but it took here 30+ mins to get through 70 rounds with a revolver (something she will NEVER own or carry.) Under the old system, 20 rounds and she would have been done. Same goes for the three ladies in their mid-60s. BTW, they all bought semi-autos and can drive just fine. EDIT: Almost ALL of us supply the guns. 80% of the people in my classes do not own a gun––they are takaing the class to learn about them, get advice on what to buy, and decide whether or not they want to take on the responsibility of safely CCW'ing. Most get their permits, some do not. It's easier to train them on our guns, so what they see in class is what they are going to handle on the range. Most do not have 5-10 magazines or speed loaders either.....have the people waiting to shoot practice loading magazine while the others are shooting them. Agreed. I'm not giving a tactical defensive handgun proficiency marksmanship course, I'm giving a CCW class. YOU take YOUR gun and train on your own time or take an advanced class. This bullshit by Targetmasters is NOTHING more than being about MONEY ! They have a range to rent for shooting. $$$ They have the handguns that you don't own because you will never shoot one again, yet HAVE to shoot to qualify . $$$ They sell ammo at inflated prices to people that come to take their class with the guns they rent . $$$ So who wins ? Targetmasters . Who loses ? The law abiding citizen that apparently only deserves a CCW if they can pass a fuckin' bootcamp-style course. Screw the old people, they have lived long enough . Fuck the disabled, they can't contribute to society anymore anyway . To hell with the small girl that can't pull a 20 pd DA revolver's trigger. She deserves to get raped, she was askin' for it. I say why not make it a 12 hr class and have them run a mile as well before they shoot to make sure they are fit enough to remove themselves from the encounter like they are taught ? I swear , when you think you've heard all the stupid shit you could, then just come to ARFCOM , you won't be disappointed . 
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I was never asking for names or anything. You come along and post with that 'i know something you dint know' type of attitude. I always call that out, and usually get the run around.
Care to give me some staring points or tips of where I can research info for my "homework" |
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Quoted:
OK, so let's just give folks with dimentia the right to drive and ccw. Problems solved. Seriously... you are comparing the 2 ? 
I never said give a CCW to someone who has dementia or anything of the like. If a disabled person is getting carjacked or a gun waved in their face they should not be able to stop the threat ? One guy I taught was a vet and was disabled with a pacemaker. The Dr. told him he couldn't shoot large caliber weapons for a bunch of rds. I guess he just deserves to die since he isn't able to shoot at the Bianchi Cup , huh .
I don't get your ... reasoning shall we call it ? 
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While we are at it why don't we lower the bar some more.
I was driving farm tractors by age nine. Let's give drivers liscenses to farm kids 12 years of age on a farm exemption. Kids in school got a right to defend themselves. Let's lower CCW age to a say age 16 ? Let's make it law folks can drive forever, until their dying breath, regardless of mental condition. They got rights too. Quoted:
Quoted:
OK, so let's just give folks with dimentia the right to drive and ccw. Problems solved. Seriously... you are comparing the 2 ?
I never said give a CCW to someone who has dementia or anything of the like. If a disabled person is getting carjacked or a gun waved in their face they should not be able to stop the threat ? One guy I taught was a vet and was disabled with a pacemaker. The Dr. told him he couldn't shoot large caliber weapons for a bunch of rds. I guess he just deserves to die since he isn't able to shoot at the Bianchi Cup , huh .
I don't get your ... reasoning shall we call it ? |
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No, I'm not confusing the two
Not wanting or meaning to frame who should or shouldn't be allowed to carry or not. My intent was to get just as carried away the opposite direction as possible to bring discussion center, right. I don't know any Target Master people by name. I'm pretty sure I've met or been introduced to everyone. Wouldn't recognize any of'em by sight. Upping the round count had absolutely nothing to do with TM's bottom line. If you know who drove CCW in Missouri to law. You'd also have an idea of his associations and possibly understand his motives. Err, Target Masters motives. There's a much larger and growing segment of gun loving, toting Americans who wanted the bar raised for CCW holders. Raising the round count was a generalized way of raising the bar without drawing up a bunch of exclusions. I want to believe this helped raise the bar for CCW instruction too. I visited with two htf members recently. One who would like to see a B27 qualifier passed every 4 months. I think upping round counts pales in comparison to what a growing majority of us think should be tougher standards for CCW certification. Festus, I don't know what to tell you except to say some physical conditions should receive wavers or a look in opposite direction. Quoted:
You seem to be confusing mental and physical. |
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I visited with two htf members recently. One who would like to see a B27 qualifier passed every 4 months. I think upping round counts pales in comparison to what a growing majority of us think should be tougher standards for CCW certification. Every 4 months? Good grief! That is insane! A lot of folks have their CCW and never really use it. I am more along the lines of Constitutional Carry. Thank you very much. |
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Though I don't know the story regarding the range in question, I had a conversation with a neighbor (veteran, out on medical) regarding CCW that seems to lend a commonality to this thread. I may/may not also be falling into 1911's camp on this, but I don't want to bring him down by guilt by association with me... Anyway, back to the neighbor. He was discussing with an elderly neighbor some of his insights as a CCW proponent, and along the way made some statements that were incorrect regarding LE. That opened up a secondary topic regarding CCW class and the method in which it is taught. I was asked what I thought about CCW. I said the only issue I have with it is that those who take the CCW class should qualify with what they plan to carry (personally I could care less whether or not you have to shoot both styles). His response - 2nd Amendment doesn't require it. I'll let all the legal eagles deal with what it says and what it doesn't. What I will say is that common sense tells you that you should qualify with what you carry. Annually? You all probably shoot weekly. Most guys here would say hell, I do that every weekend. I don't have the mythical database of all the CCW's in Missouri, but I'll tell you this; I know, KNOW 10 people who have told me they haven't shot since the day they got their CCW. This was important because he stated that all (his words, not mine) CCW'ers shoot more than LE. There are many of you here who may qualify with that statement. To many in LE, the gun is nothing more than a tool, and they don't get excited by it. They qualify, know how it functions, the end. When I pointed out my agency and our qualification requirements, he stated "well yeah, you're different. Your not one of Them...". If I had the power to write the law, you would pass a basic qualification course with the weapon you are going to carry. If you want to buy another one, you go boy! But you would have to qualify with it if you plan to CCW. Know how to clear a malfunction; know how to down load it. Owning one gun does not make you an expert on all guns. Own whatever you want. But if you are going to carry it, and plan on the possibility of engaging bad guys? You damned well better know how to handle that piece because if one round...ONE misses and my loved ones are there? Well... If you think I'm being extreme? That's what I live with every day I put mine on. And while I know there are exceptions I've been wearing a badge and a gun for 27 years. If we miss, and we do we are PWON'D for it. Are you willing to do the same? No, I'm not trying to keep someone with arthritis from CCW'ing. Or with other physical challenges. Hell, if this really pisses someone off go ahead and flame me. As previously stated that's what the ignore function is for. ETA..looks like Delorean won't want to hang with me.... |
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damn...if I have to qual with the firearm I carry I would have to qual at a min of once a month!!
I am not down with that. If you meet the state requirements for training then you are good. If you learn proper safety, when to and when not to carry, shoot and ect then you are good. Sure you should stay proficient with firearms but I am tired of the government telling me what I HAVE to do. |
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Sure you should stay proficient with firearms but I am tired of the government telling me what I HAVE to do. For all the things that upset people on this thread, the fact that having to qualify with something you want to use for defense (CCW, not the gun itself) is too much to ask is, well disturbing. But, it's good to have an open discussion and air out all the points |
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Quoted:
If you think I'm being extreme? That's what I live with every day I put mine on. And while I know there are exceptions I've been wearing a badge and a gun for 27 years. If we miss, and we do we are PWON'D for it. Are you willing to do the same? Big difference here, you are doing a job, in a career you chose, and get paid to do it... Concealed carry and carrying in a law enforcement job cannot be compared. Bill |
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No, I wouldn't do that to him or you.
In case you're worried about being on the same range as him ?? No worries. While I view every four months excessive I know exactly where he's coming from. I'd be more in line with a B27 qualifier every two years tied with CCW renewel. Too many don't take CCW seriously enough. If the number was 1/100 that one is too many. The number, seriously is larger given my meetings with people and htf members. No offense meant, but a few of you could use a little work in the legality department. Quoted:
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I visited with two htf members recently. One who would like to see a B27 qualifier passed every 4 months. Could you post their screen names so I can make it a point not to hang around with them either? |
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I visited with two htf members recently. One who would like to see a B27 qualifier passed every 4 months. I think upping round counts pales in comparison to what a growing majority of us think should be tougher standards for CCW certification. Every 4 months? Good grief! That is insane! A lot of folks have their CCW and never really use it. I am more along the lines of Constitutional Carry. Thank you very much. That's where I fall. I'm an 'Absolutist' in some circles. Whatever. I can see a concerned CCW holder training at least once a quarter with several B27's but no real need to force folks that can't justify the expense on ammo to do so. I enjoy shooting. I also reload. Shooting well is an ablative skill, it goes away if not done often. Having a EDC that is ok with dry fire sounds like something that makes sense to me as well. |
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Bill: Do you CCW? Will you shoot someone if they threaten you with deadly force? How does that differ from me? How does one CCW class prepare you for it? I instruct, and I believe there's a term that is most applicable here...its called "perishable skills". If you plan on walking out the door and possibly engaging someone in a firefight, it's no different. Not being paid for it doesn't obsolve you from the responsibility, and it sure as hell doesn't increase your shooting ability. Quoted: Quoted: If you think I'm being extreme? That's what I live with every day I put mine on. And while I know there are exceptions I've been wearing a badge and a gun for 27 years. If we miss, and we do we are PWON'D for it. Are you willing to do the same? Big difference here, you are doing a job, in a career you chose, and get paid to do it... Concealed carry and carrying in a law enforcement job cannot be compared. Bill |
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Wow... it sure has been HOT lately! Kind of makes folks a bit irritated. You guys KNOW that nobody is going to "win" in this discussion ––- lots of STRONG opinions/feelings towards the subject matter and not much chance of changing people's minds.
Let it go! Take a cool dip in the pool and relax. Have a couple of cold ones! Etc...etc.... 
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Quoted: Your right, they've lived long enough . Fuckem. Here is a thought maybe supplying the guns allows for making sure the firearms are in good working order or perhaps a test drive to find the right firearm. I don't own any revolvers , don't care to. Should I buy something that I'll never use just to take a test? For somebody who seems to have a lot of knowledge, that seems to be a ignorant statement. Hmmm, sort of like how the DMV makes you test on both an automatic and a manual. Oh, wait, no they don't. Regarding upping the round count to produce more proficient CCW'ers, that's a load of BS. Does anyone seriously believe that another box of ammo is going to turn any first-timer into a Bob Munden?  |
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I like the guys at Target Masters- Jim & Berry, Powder Horn- Dave, Carl, & lee, Patriot Supply Sean & Garson, etc.. because they are all gun people. 1911smith said that I had sold one of my guns to one of the owners at Target Masters, well it was a employee of the store, and I didn't make any money from Target Masters or the guy I sold it to , so that is not a issue. Most of all the employees there have a long law enforcement background or training background. The owner does not work there, and I believe they all are paid a set pay scale, I don't believe they work on commission there. I believe they are there to help the best that they can, the employees that work there are good guys and will try to help anyone from what I have seen. I don't know who was behind the change of the round count. I sure don't know of any lobbyist working there, or anyone that would have any kind of pull what so ever to get any law in Missouri changed to benifit tehm? I am also fairly sure the owner has other business, Target Masters is kind of a small store, I am sure they don't make as much money as one would think, a couple more rounds during a CCW class is not going to make or break them and I am very sure it ain't going to make any store millions!!.
As far as round count, if you can't hit the target you shouldn't be packing. The distance for qualification for CCW is very short. Most of the people I shoot with could point there gun at the target, close there eyes and look the other way and still hit it. In law enforcement I have seen with my own eyes guys that can't pass qualification and still get passed. Bad deal and wrong! and they should never pack!! I believe any law enforcement should have to qualify several times a year, because most of them the only time they shoot is when they have to qualify. I have sold many police trade in guns, and 99% of the time they are like new on the inside, because they are only shot a few rounds once a year. If they can't pass they shouldn't be packing a gun. One of the officers here where I live said he knew of about half doz. accidental discharge over the years where the officers have drawn there gun and when off unintentionally, very scary!!! Should those officers be packing??I don't think so, I think they should go back to training!! I don't believe CCW people or police should have to qualify with two different guns, and shoot hundreds of rounds at a qualification. I am no lobbyist, I sure wouldn't go to the state and try to change laws. I sure don't care for too many politicians. The fact is- I know there are way too many people that don't practice, both CCW people and officers. I sure wouldn't want to be on the other side of the road or room with them shooting in my direction at someone. I am sure it will never happen but, myself, I think anyone carrying should have to qualify a few times a year with what ever you are carrying. 24rds at a B27 15yrds, no running them through over and over the same day until they pass Those targets are huge!!!. If you can't hit it with every round, don't carry it. That amount of rounds should not break the bank. Anyone that carry's should be practicing way more than that anyway. I am sure it would be way too costly to require something like that with all the paperwork and all, but no mater how you look at it there are way too many that need to learn to shoot better than what they can for your and my safety!
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I have been in enough shitty threads this week. Comparing CCW and being a law enforcement officer cant be done. You get paid to do the job and paid training. Its part of your job. While I am behind the gun counter you can be on the range training getting paid to be there improving your skills. Yes i do CCW, yes i will shoot anybody if they threaten me with deadly force, but the same rules that apply to you, dont apply to me. They just arent the same. You are being paid to protect others, i am not. I do take classes and shoot more often than 95% of police officers, thats my choice. It shouldnt be mandated by our government...
Bill Quoted:
Bill: Do you CCW? Will you shoot someone if they threaten you with deadly force? How does that differ from me? How does one CCW class prepare you for it? I instruct, and I believe there's a term that is most applicable here...its called "perishable skills". If you plan on walking out the door and possibly engaging someone in a firefight, it's no different. Not being paid for it doesn't obsolve you from the responsibility, and it sure as hell doesn't increase your shooting ability. Quoted:
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If you think I'm being extreme? That's what I live with every day I put mine on. And while I know there are exceptions I've been wearing a badge and a gun for 27 years. If we miss, and we do we are PWON'D for it. Are you willing to do the same? Big difference here, you are doing a job, in a career you chose, and get paid to do it... Concealed carry and carrying in a law enforcement job cannot be compared. Bill |