Posted: 4/19/2012 7:01:33 AM EDT
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Linky to article STLTODAY.COM
Didn't realize they did not already have them. Sounds like a good deal, but what is a Titan B/SL rifle? |
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Donno, can't find anything on 'Titan', I'll dig through a few resources I have and see if they are a registered Manufacturer and what - if any - ties the company has to St Louis.
ETA: nevermind, thanks for the heads-up on STS. I did find this blog about this issue and left a comment: http://angry-peasants.blogspot.com/2012/04/government-waste-in-st-louis.html?showComment=1334849036193#c4672999350515248085 |
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Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. |
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Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. lol...you got an iv of koolaid going right in to ya? I would imagine some of our "junk" gets used a lot more than most LE guns do |
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Quoted: LOL... Quoted: Quoted: Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. lol...you got an iv of koolaid going right in to ya? I would imagine some of our "junk" gets used a lot more than most LE guns do  |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. lol...you got an iv of koolaid going right in to ya? I would imagine some of our "junk" gets used a lot more than most LE guns do Yeah, LOL. LE =/= MIL |
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Quoted: Wow $2200 per rifle. What a waste they could nearly buy two Colt rifles for that. My math sez that 45 gozinta $81,000 1800 times. "It was unclear what will become of the old 9 mm rifles, The department has traditionally destroyed obsolete firearms but is considering selling or trading these, a spokeswoman said." It would be fiscally irresponsible to destroy the 9mm rifles. Yet, somehow destroying them would still be logical to a Liberal, which ST Louis' gubmint is full of. |
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Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. 
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Quoted: At a minimum, they could have shopped around a bit more for a better deal. Since Clot 6920's sell for ~$1050, retail, you would be hard-pressed to convince me that a Dept could not swing an even better deal. Quoted: Quoted: Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. |
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At a minimum, they could have shopped around a bit more for a better deal. Since Clot 6920's sell for ~$1050, retail, you would be hard-pressed to convince me that a Dept could not swing an even better deal.
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p
Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications.
Well ya know the alderman's brothers cousin had to spend quite some time making the deal so he needs a bit of the action as well as the trucking company that delivers this hazardous material and to inventory all of these guns would be a nightmare 
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Quoted: My agency will be buying CMMG and Stag thank you... I call BS.... We've already learned they are not a mil spec fighting rifles. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. They'll get scared and shit out on you when it counts..  Just playin.... Please note my sarcasm... |
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My agency will be buying CMMG and Stag thank you... I call BS.... We've already learned they are not a mil spec fighting rifles. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. They'll get scared and shit out on you when it counts..
Just playin.... Please note my sarcasm... Don't you need a soul to have sarcasm? That's an impossibility for you Ginger ..............
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Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. 
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Quoted: You cut me deep shrek, real deep... :)Quoted: Quoted: My agency will be buying CMMG and Stag thank you... I call BS.... We've already learned they are not a mil spec fighting rifles. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. They'll get scared and shit out on you when it counts.. Just playin.... Please note my sarcasm... Don't you need a soul to have sarcasm? That's an impossibility for you Ginger .............. Who ever started the whole Gingers have no soul thing??? My daughter was givin me shit one night callin me a ginger, till I told her she was part Ginger and part Mexican... |
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As much as cherish my time with SLMPD, they make some of the worst firearms decisions known to man.
For example: Beretta 92D Melting down the old 870s Beretta Storm for a patrol carbine (don't get me started, I could rant about that all day long) G36s for MR Now they're wasting money to bring back new 870s??? I know some cops love shotguns (if I hear someone else say "All you have to do is rack that action..." my head may explode), but a good AR is a better long gun for most LE situations. Some departments are allowed to carry both, which is great, but then you start adding to your costs as well as your training and qualification efforts. And $1800 for an AR that some unknown builder pieced together in his basement??? Hell, they might as well call Chris from Red Jacket and have him slap some POS together. Spend $1100-1200 on a nice Colt or LMT (or even less from one of the other quality major manufacturers), and spend the rest to outfit the guns with an Aimpoint PRO, decent light and sling. I don't like Eotechs, but you could take the 512s off the Storms and save even more money. And all that to sit in the supervisor's car??? I had some great Sergeants, but the reality is most of them spend a majority of their time at the station doing administrative matters. "Hey Sarge, I'm getting shot to shit out here, can you bring your rifle?" "Sure, let me finish reviewing these reports first." In some smaller departments Sgts are often still running and gunning, but not so much in mid to large size departments these days. Bottom line is it's a democrat run city, Slay is a dirty snake, Isom is an idiot who doesn't know shit about policing, and all of the above are catering to the liberals and the North City folks, who want the PD to be as lightly armed as possible. God bless you guys that are still there and dealing with all the BS. |
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"It was unclear what will become of the old 9 mm rifles, The department has traditionally destroyed obsolete firearms but is considering selling or trading these, a spokeswoman said." It would be fiscally irresponsible to destroy the 9mm rifles. Yet, somehow destroying them would still be logical to a Liberal, which ST Louis' gubmint is full of. As much as I hate destroying guns for no reason other than politics, I'd gladly melt those Storms myself. I've never run into an LE agency with such a shitty patrol carbine. Maybe someone out there is using a Hipoint carbine... |
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Weren't those Beretta's select fire..........  If so, that would seriously warp my reality. Hell I don't know, why else would you pick a pistol caliber carbine other than it using 92 mags.......................wait it's government, now I get it They issue a DA-only Beretta 92 as their side arm, so I'd assume the idea to go to the Storm was mag/ammo compatibility. |
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I guess we are doing something wrong...I have no issues with Colts, but we traded em in and was able to put almost 2 for 1 on the street, and some cool aide drinker got some Colt over-sized pin receivered rifles. We shoot our rifles quarterly. Our officers shoot their personally owned ones at least that often. As stated, no issues so far STLMPD has had some serious issues with their weapon program, some of which has been discussed on here by it's officers. The issues have nothing to do with the rank and file officer who have in fact tried to step up and solve the issues.
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Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. When the County purchased 100 Colt rifles, straight from Colt, back in 1995 we had problems with them right out of the gate. Over tightened carrier key bolts that caused some of the bolts to brake was the problem. I currently have one of those rifles issued to me. The first few batches of RR we got, and are still in service, were commercial guns chambered in 223 with a F-upped muzzle brake. They have held up fine and the brake has been replaced. STLCPD will even allow personally owned SBRs and piston guns. I do not want to tare my current SBR up so it’s been a good excuse to start saving for another SBR. Yes I have been told by the LTC himself that he will sign off on a 7.5 PDW as long as it runs. They will not allow cans or high magnified optics but when they wrote the GO for having your own rifle they did not prohibit grenade launchers
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I was teaching at the CMPA between the Colts and when the RRA's came in. Our guys can run SBR's if they want, they just have to qualify the courses. I do love the "pretty guns"...The first time I ran the range with guys bringing their approved personal owned weapons everyone stood around and ooo'd and aaaah'd. My guns are beat up. As soon as they had to start dropping or bumping their guns against barricades, they started to get worried about their safe queens. About half of them put them back and are running dept. guns now. I love Magpul/ceracoted color coordination, but things are gonna get dinked. Get over it. Idiot scratches? Mine car gun looks like it was drug behind my unit down a gravel road.
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Quoted: You gotta use the "it's for Officer safety" line on 'em. Quoted: Quoted: Been nice if they could have spec'ed out what they wanted to a local (MO or St. Louis) based MFR or gun shop at least... We got BRO, CMMG that I know of and several gunshops that I'm sure of building and proving anything needed... Or.... they could buy a proper mil spec fighting rifle (Colt, LMT, BCM) that wouldnt shit out on them when it counts. These guns will not be replaced for probably 20-30 years. Commercial guns dont work for LE/Mil applications. When the County purchased 100 Colt rifles, straight from Colt, back in 1995 we had problems with them right out of the gate. Over tightened carrier key bolts that caused some of the bolts to brake was the problem. I currently have one of those rifles issued to me. The first few batches of RR we got, and are still in service, were commercial guns chambered in 223 with a F-upped muzzle brake. They have held up fine and the brake has been replaced. STLCPD will even allow personally owned SBRs and piston guns. I do not want to tare my current SBR up so it’s been a good excuse to start saving for another SBR. Yes I have been told by the LTC himself that he will sign off on a 7.5 PDW as long as it runs. They will not allow cans or high magnified optics but when they wrote the GO for having your own rifle they did not prohibit grenade launchers  |
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I was teaching at the CMPA between the Colts and when the RRA's came in. Our guys can run SBR's if they want, they just have to qualify the courses. I do love the "pretty guns"...The first time I ran the range with guys bringing their approved personal owned weapons everyone stood around and ooo'd and aaaah'd. My guns are beat up. As soon as they had to start dropping or bumping their guns against barricades, they started to get worried about their safe queens. About half of them put them back and are running dept. guns now. I love Magpul/ceracoted color coordination, but things are gonna get dinked. Get over it. Idiot scratches? Mine car gun looks like it was drug behind my unit down a gravel road. I hear you but what happens when I get rear ended or I get into a car crash in general and my rifle gets messed up or lets say they fix my car rack and now it fits in the cabine and some one breaks in and trys to steal it. ( Had this happen not to long ago and they destroyed the rifle trying to get it out) Who is going to pay for it, I am not about it looking cool or fresh off the build table but when you have an issued rifle and its assigned to you why tare up or risk your own gear. I do keep going back and forth and will most likely go with a new SBR build this year. Not because its cool and all but I do not take a car home anymore and lugging that full size Colt back and forth is getting old. Need something smaller. Eric 10mm the LTC that approves them now is a can fan and a gun guy but they are not going to budge on that issue. The GO also does not prohibbit bayonets either. 
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Quoted: Quoted: I was teaching at the CMPA between the Colts and when the RRA's came in. Our guys can run SBR's if they want, they just have to qualify the courses. I do love the "pretty guns"...The first time I ran the range with guys bringing their approved personal owned weapons everyone stood around and ooo'd and aaaah'd. My guns are beat up. As soon as they had to start dropping or bumping their guns against barricades, they started to get worried about their safe queens. About half of them put them back and are running dept. guns now. I love Magpul/ceracoted color coordination, but things are gonna get dinked. Get over it. Idiot scratches? Mine car gun looks like it was drug behind my unit down a gravel road. I hear you but what happens when I get rear ended or I get into a car crash in general and my rifle gets messed up or lets say they fix my car rack and now it fits in the cabine and some one breaks in and trys to steal it. ( Had this happen not to long ago and they destroyed the rifle trying to get it out) Who is going to pay for it, I am not about it looking cool or fresh off the build table but when you have an issued rifle and its assigned to you why tare up or risk your own gear. I do keep going back and forth and will most likely go with a new SBR build this year. Not because its cool and all but I do not take a car home anymore and lugging that full size Colt back and forth is getting old. Need something smaller. Eric 10mm the LTC that approves them now is a can fan and a gun guy but they are not going to budge on that issue. The GO also does not prohibbit bayonets either. I completely agree. If the issued rifle is functional, I'll use it every time for a variety of reasons not the least of which you pointed out. The irony for me was I fought for 3 years to get the officer purchase program going, and once they did and found out they'd have to get them dirty they went back to the pool rifles they had been griping about. |
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Ok. Here goes... The main issues that we are faced with have been discussed previously in other threads by myself and others. I also have to be careful at what I say because I know I have friends AND enemies on this board. It is no secret that the Beretta Storms were the worst idea ever hatched. I have my own ideas as to why those guns were purchased, but that will be reserved. The problem with our Department is that we are always five steps behind. I personally have worked very hard to try and make this happen with the Department as I conducted years of research on this matter. Our Department is satisfied with making the same mistakes that other Departments have already made. Our leaders will state in one sentence that they want to get ahead and do what other Departments are doing, but in the next sentence, they say that they are going to do something else... because they said so. Now, we came to the place we are at based on compromise and HARD work. We agreed to supervisors first and open it up to the rest of the Department at a later date. I'm ok with that, as long as they keep up with their end of the bargain. Also, they must either allow a personally owned program, or they will have to issue out the rifles to individual officers. Pool rifles don't work and there are sighting issued involved. I will not trust a pool rifle. I happen to think that the supervisor rifles should be individually issued to the supervisors. What burns my ass is the decision to go with the STS rifles. No one knows anything about this company and our opinions on the subject were not considered. No one, not here or at M4Carbine, has even heard of this company. Several industry persons I know gave me a double take when I mentioned the company saying, "Who are they?" They do not have ANY Dept. of Defence contracts. In fact, the only part on the rifle that is made by STS is the lower. It is basically an expensive piston franken-gun. The only reason that they are going to go with this company is because SWAT has the guns already (and I'm sure that the same reason the Storms were purchased is also at play here). I am not a fan of the piston guns because they have not yet developed an industry standard for the designs. They are all different. They are heavier, harsher recoil, often less accurate... There is a reason that companies like LT, Knights, and Armalite (except for the nearly extinct AR-180) have not produced one. It is because it is still an evolving platform. The gun was never designed as a piston system. In my opinion (and no one obviously cares about my opinion), its a round peg in a square hole thing... I was asked several times, what is the military doing? What are other Departments doing? Well sir, they certainly aren't carrying STS piston rifles. And every major Department nationwide, as a national trend, is moving towards personally owned programs. They just don't want to hear it and don't want the opinion of someone who actually has some knowledge in this business. The STS decision is a waste of money in my mind. I happen to know that several bolts from the STS's here had to be sent back due to issues. That's a real problem if you ask me. For $1000 less per gun, they could get something more affordable... and proven. On the flip side of the coin, either way, we have made steps in the right direction. The leaders of our Department deserve a lot of credit in listening to us and allowing the process to get this far. It is just going to take more time that I wanted. We will get there, we'll just be late to the dance. In the meantime, I sure as hell hope that none of our guys are killed where an AR would have saved them while waiting for a supervisor to show up. Supervisors only... when did it make you somehow more qualified to have the rifle than someone who actually has experience just because you have stripes on your arm? Bass Ackwards. |
.ALL city agencies need to stop saying "nothing ever happens around here!!!
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I know you did a lot of work on this. I just can't understand after all the GO's that were sent from various depts plus nearly everyone around you (over 30 muni agencies and STLCO) having moved away from the Supervisor only/personally owned weapons that they still went this way. Its like they just want to repeat all the mistakes already made. I just don't understand the mentality there. I've still never understood why most want to wear only one additional magazine for their sidearm. Best of luck, and I hope they stay to their so called promises. Sometimes the muni life is the only life for me or as the saying goes...
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Quoted: I know you did a lot of work on this. I just can't understand after all the GO's that were sent from various depts plus nearly everyone around you (over 30 muni agencies and STLCO) having moved away from the Supervisor only/personally owned weapons that they still went this way. Its like they just want to repeat all the mistakes already made. I just don't understand the mentality there. I've still never understood why most want to wear only one additional magazine for their sidearm. Best of luck, and I hope they stay to their so called promises. Sometimes the muni life is the only life for me or as the saying goes... Starting to feel that way too. |