Posted: 11/25/2006 7:57:00 PM EDT
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Figured Id post this here. ISP has been issued the .40 glock. They have had to replace some (all?) with 9mm due to reliability problems. I dont know the nature of the problem, nor do I know if this is typical errornet misinformtion. Any info would be appreciated. |
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**errornet warning** I think i heard this was an issue with the take down bar spring failing and allowing the slide to go down range shorly after the bullet (i've personally see this, and yes for a person who is not a glock fan, it is amazingly funny - then again I have a sick sense of humor) |
| This is way old news. They traded, or are trading, their model 22 40 s&w for model 17 9mm's. If they had so much trouble with glock why did they "settle" on another glock model? I have always thought of the glock as a overrated, over priced, and cheaply made pistol. |
| I'm sure a lot of the decision to go with Glock is MONEY! I doubt any other manufacturer who could match Glock's reliability and performance could match the pricing from Glock. Why do you think so many departments use them? I personally can't stand them, but to each his own. |
We have a winner here! It always comes down to money, and guess what, you get what you pay for. I use to like Glock's, but after the way that Glock treated us in this situation, I will never purchase another Glock. There were a lot of troopers that were pissed about us going back to the 9mm and felt that we got an inferior product (G22) and then had to "settle" for a lesser product. The Super is a Glock guy and basically told them to trade for something that would still fit in our holster to keep cost down. Pretty pathetic if you ask me. Here is some reading material for you for proof.  Proof 1 Proof 2 Proof 3 |
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Well, on the bright side (if there is one) . . . If you are required to carry a Glock and it's issued for your job, the Glock 17 is the best of the models they feature. It's the original, it was designed for 9mm, all of the bugs have been eliminated (aside from any random manufacturing defects). I know there are hundreds if not thousands of people who will want to say, "But my Glock 22 in .40 is 100% reliable!" Well, yours may be, and an entire department's may be, but the ISP didn't have such good luck. If you're going to get a few hundred pistols (or a few thousand) and want them all to work, your best bet is the Glock 17. In addition, they're easier to shoot. Regardless of how well anyone shoots a Glock, they should be able to shoot faster with the same level of accuracy with a G17 than with a G22. For those officers with marginal skills anyway, it will be easier for them to get good hits, especially since it will be easier for them to practice effectively if they choose to do so. In fact, I think it was silly for so many police departments to just switch from 9mm to .40 because everyone else was doing it (and usually using the canard that the .40 was drastically more effective). There are too many officers with less than adequate shooting skills as it is, so why give them a gun that is harder to shoot with few rounds? Finally, all typical pistol rounds are puny and ineffective. The only reason we use them is because it's easier to carry a pistol all day than a rifle. The real differences in terminal ballistics of a modern 9mm JHP round and its equivalent in .40S&W are negligible. Arguing over one being better than the other is kind of like arguing over whether it would be worse to be eaten by a grizzly bear or a polar bear. Either one is going to get the job done if you're in the "right spot." It's all about shot placement, and multiple rounds where and when you want them. If I had to carry a Glock, I would specifically choose a G17. |
I agree with some of your points, but one reason why I am hating the G17 is that I was issued a 92G first and carried it for years. I loved the 92G and shot great with it. I then was issued a 96G in it's replacement and also shot great with it. I get issued a Glock and my scores went from high 90's and 100's to mid 70's shooter. I SHOOT HORRIBLE with the Glock! 
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I had the same problem, I don't do well with glocks, jsut something aobut how it fits in my hand or the trigger, who knows I don't like them. But atleast I know the Marines arent picking them up anytime soon.. we now have the M9A1 service pistol. I still wish I would've bought that Beretta Border Marshall when I had the chance, that was a real sweet shooter. |
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I love Glocks, but have you ever noticed all the "problems" revolve around the .40? One issue is pushing the .40 to it's limits. If you want big go with .45 or 10mm, if you want fast use a 9mm. Anyway, one thing I do not like is Glock sights. At a recent shoot at Blackwater I used a G19 with standard Glock sights. Technically I should have come in last but I beat a full third of the shooters there and I hate Glock sights and I own .45's. Although I did buy a G19 last year and love it too, I just have not used one much until now. I am not sure what you guys are allowed to do but if you can, swap out those sights. A G17 will shoot excellent groups. If there is a probem in an experienced shooters hands, I say swap the sights. |
I am going with Polar Bear. I grew up hearing some interesting stories about them from my old man as he spent some time above the arctic circle. |
I think that you may be right about the sights, because I have noticed that also. It seems that there is hardly any gap between the front and rear sights when they are aligned, which causes me some problems. I wish I could find a narrower front sight. |
The front sight on my dad's G19 seems to be really wide compared to all of our other handguns, but his has tritium sights and I figured it was because of that. It doesn't seem to be a problem in slow-fire as I can shoot much better groups with it than with my Kahr, but I've never really tried rapid-fire with his. |
I don't know about that, but I do know that after they sent off some of the G22's that had problem's (I think 150 guns), we received them back and they were going to do a 10,000 round test. They stopped the testing of them at 5000 rounds because they already had a failure rate of 55%. 
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I will get the info on what my Bro has on his Glocks. One in particular is sweet. My .45 is set up with Millet adjustable target sights. Kind of a giant version of what you see on a Ruger MKII target. These days they would call that an offensive handgun. I guess I was a pioneer? Anway, for sure I prefer a black rear sight and a wider gap. |
I see you point, from the inside! But, we all know that nobody wants to pay for law enforcement. ISP's budget is only a small. small percentage of the Indiana budget.
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Hey at least it's 9mm. Glock makes shovels too. Damn fine ones I might add. I give up on expecting logic in govt. and the public sector in general. |
The word at kieslers in Jeff was that there was a magazine design problem and that keisler defense had supplied the guns and ammo. That was where the info came from, right or wrong. |
It initially looked as if it was a magazine problem. Some guys swapped the supplied magazines with the previous generation magazines that Keislers had (I can't remember what generation). The guys that used the previous generation magazines said that their guns funtioned great and they did a range test with some of the older mags and a G22 that had the most problems and it seemed to fix it. But, Glock stated that they no longer made the older mags and will not produce them any more. That was one of the problems, Glock originally stated that they had a warehouse full of the older mags and that they would swap them out. Then, they came back and said, "We're wrong, we don't have them anymore." It was after this that Glock pulled in the 150 guns that had the most problems and "re-worked" them by replacing the rail system/ bedding block or whatever you want to call it. Those 150 guns were worse than before. You could defintely see a huge difference between the new magazines and the previous generation mags. The previous generation mags follwer had the top round sitting low, which the new ones sat at a higher angle. But, I think that it was more than a magazine issue. The G22's CHEWED the side lips of the magazines to the point where there were plastic shavings in some of the guns. I'm not an engineer, nor a gunsmith, but I wouldn't think that this would be normal 
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Well, I certainly can't dispute any of that! I think it's silly for a police department to require everyone to carry the same gun, unless of course they hire only people with identical bodies and hands. There is no pistol that satisifies "one size fits all." They should have a list of approved weapons that you could purchase for yourself, but I think I'm probably preaching to the choir! |
I agree with you there, that would be really nice. I think a lot of the larger departments let their officers choose from a selection of about 3 weapons. I think NYPD does it and maybe Chicago? On this same topic, I was told by one of our instructor's today that Kiesler's has our old Glock 22's for sale AFTER THEY CHANGED TO THE GENERATION 5 MAGAZINE FOLLOWERS! I would be really leary of buying a "gently used" G22 these days! I cannot confirm this for sure, but if anyone knows for sure, please let us know and I will do the same. I think that these guns had more problems than the magazine followers. |
| INtrooper, you can send your slide to Heinie and have some striaght eight night sights installed. You can order them as well. There is a company called custom glock racing that sells the heinie's with the rear sight cut out wider which helps the front sight show up and track easily. It sounds weird but its a huge difference. I know sending the gun off may be an issue, but have a buddy armorer put em on for you, might help the scores go up. I noticed when my dept. transitioned from the sig to glocks my accuracy went down, but my speed increased considerably. Good luck. |
Yeah, the Slant Pro straight eights are nice, I have them on my G29. I just don't know how the department would feel with me changing the sights. I could see them raising an issue. |
Your department sounds like the military. |
You are correct, we are a para-military organization and we have a Super the is ex-military and Special Forces. They just don't like to deviate from the norm, they want everyone to be the same! On the sights note, when we got the G22's, we were going through the transition and qualification. There were some guys that needed some sight adjustment, just windage of course and our instructors told us that first off, the department didn't purchase any Glock sight tools and secondly, that if they had sight tools, that they wouldn't do any sight adjustments anyway! Can you believe that a department of around 1700 would not purchase any sight tools! Or, that on an order of that size, that Glock would not include the sight tools in the order?? Some guys were so mad about it, especially the ones that didn't like the Glock transition to begin with, were drifting the rear sights themselves. And by that I mean, taking the slide off of the gun and beating it on a table edge to get the rear sight drifted!  |
It sounds like Glock really took care of you guys  My guess is that Glock has so many LEO contracts, that 1700 guns is nothing to them and thus no sight tools. Like I said, just a guess. I know my relatives that are Troopers were less than pleased with the switch to Glocks.
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Right, this is why I won't ever give Glock any more of my business. There's nothing like carrying a handgun on duty for months that might or might not work when you most need it!!
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As far as I know, the ISP has NEVER discussed going to the .45ACP. |
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I read an article about several local departments switching to .45 auto. The article stated that those departments were doing so because the ISP was going to switch. I was mildly amused that it had taken so long for everyone involved to reach the correct conclusion. Obviously the paper got it wrong. Sorry to hear that you are still undergunned. |
I wonder if maybe they meant ISP or Illinois State Police?? A lot of us really wish that they would have considered the .45ACP instead of going backwards to the 9mm. We were told that the command staff didn't want to do that because of the "smaller framed" people!
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The local departments that were changing to .45 auto pistols were in Indiana. The reporter probably misunderstood what one of the chiefs told him about why the department was changing calibers. Or maybe the chief didn't want to give the real reason. I'm sure some of the folks around here would object to the police carrying an effective pistol. |
Yeah, there is always going to be someone complaining from the outside. I think that the Indiana CO's have been very pleased with their Sig 220's, I wish that we could have gone to something like that! |
They had problems with their new Sig P220s. They switched from the old blue models to the new Stainles models with rails for boat duty. When they went to qualify with the new Sigs they had multiple FTF, FTE, & slide wasn't locking back. They sent all of them back & Sig sent them new ones. A couple of them are still having problems but they believe they are magazine related. |
I remember hearing that they had some problems, but I don't think that it was anything like what we had with the Glocks. It looks like Sig took care of them anyway!
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Boo Hoo,,, still beating the dead horse  The new stadium is looking good. Cant wait for the first game. |
How is "paramilitary" part of the ISP?? Or ANY civilian branch of law enforcement? Uh,, I hope all you guys get all the tools you need up to and including Wilson or LesBaers for sidearms but the "paramilitary" angle for civilian LEOs sends up a flag for me. Glad you guys have pleny of experianced guys but this isnt the military, hope it never is. |
By "paramilitary" I refer to the rank structure, chain of command, uniformity, etc, etc. That is about as far as it goes, but in actuality, every modern police agency is considered "paramilitary" because of it's rank structure, nothing else. |
| I have seen a few Sgts' from Marion County running aorund with what looked like Kimbers. I saw one K-9 officer with one and thought it was an oddity, then I spotted a few other sgt's on different beats with them as well. I was glad to see the 1911 still in use. But I've seen a few departments wiht P220's now and every officer I've talke dto loves em. Except one, he was kind of bitter about giving up his tupperware. |
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I've shot Glocks for years and never had any issues, but that's just a few out of millions made too. Sounds to me like Glock made a bad run of guns there for sure. When they do contracts for police depts, they make all the guns at once with consecutive serial numbers (i could be wrong about that). So, it makes sense why so many of them had issues. They were made in the same run and thus had many of the same malfunctions. It can happen (and has happened) to any gun manufacturer. I carry a G23 for personal protection and would put my life on the line for it's reliability. I think they just got a bad run of guns. Glock should have just replaced (not repaired) all of the guns. Attempting to repair them was a big mistake, but hey, it's all about money. The G17 is an exceptional firearm. If you don't shoot well with it now, don't worry, you will. I've shot Glocks so much, I can't hit crap with a 1911, Sig, or any of those guns with sights that sit way up high off my hand. I think it's just a matter of perspective. Keep at it. Cops need all the practice they can get |