Posted: 12/27/2006 6:40:07 AM EDT
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Due to events that happened recently I'm looking to take the conceal and carry class. www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=530643 A quick Google search came up with this place. www.mntactics.com/Classes.html anyone been through their class? who would you recommend? My wife is pregnant and my major concern right now is that i might run into this guy in town while she is with, i want a back up plan if something escalates and we are forced to engage. |
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These guys are my friends and good instructors when it comes to MN CCW law. It's a good carry permit course. If you want a carry permit course with more practical shooting instruction, Defensive Edge's class is great. Personally, I'd recommend taking both because there is not much cross over between the two. Either way, you should take the class and take more training! Good luck! |
Handgun 1 satisfies the MN law for CCW permits, covering laws and some scenarios. The class (handgun 1) is not as much tactics as it is fundamentals. Make sure you get a good grounding in fundamentals before moving to tactics. If you don't, you will spend a lot of time breaking bad habits (like me). |
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My wife is usually very easy going, but try to hurt or threaten one of her children and she becomes a Momma Bear protecting her Cubs. Your wife might have the same motivator once you have a little one. As far as courses, there are many to choose from. After reading about your run in, there are many courses that would possibly apply. The basis first it to get solid fundamental of pistol handling skills, as it is fundamentals that are required in order to employ when using proper tactics. All the tactics in the world probably won't do much good if you cannot hit with your firearm upon demand when required. Our Handgun-1 course covers the legalities, plus we spend about 5 hours on the range working on solid handgun fundamentals. Those who successfully pass our Handgun-1 course may apply for a carry permit. For other courses I might suggest Defense Alternatives which will cover all types of other force options and tactics. You should also consider our Gunfighting While Protecting Others course, as this will teach you what to do when your wife and children are present. Another course to consider is a Gunfighting From & Around Vehicles course. CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com |
You're working with a truncated timetable but your wife will eventually warm up to the idea of you being armed, especially when she realizes it's in her best interest. It took my wife a couple years but she's used to and comforted by the idea that I am always armed. My hint would be to not push hard in discussions, but take opportune times to remind her that carry is a good idea when you live in a society like ours. I find the 10 o'clock news provides almost daily examples of why you need to carry all the time. Danger can find you anywhere (although some areas are more likely than others). If your wife will absolutely not allow you to carry, there are alternatives. Here are some suggestions for you: 1) carry GOOD pepper spray, like Fox 5.3 2) carry a good flashlight, especially if you are going to out at night 3) vary your daily routines. 4) learn to live your life in condition yellow. The last one is the most important. Most people live in condition white. That means they are not very observant of what's going on around them, and danger usually surprises them. You'd be surprised how quickly your "little voice" will tune you in to telling you when you should be somewhere else. Some things to that point: -Meet oncoming people with your eyes. Do not be afraid to lock or "engage" someone visually so they are aware of you knowing they're there. -Walk with your head up, scanning your surroundings. Most people look at the ground when they walk. -Avoid entering areas with single escape routes. Parking ramps and lots are areas where this commonly occurs. After having changed my lifestyle to be much more observant I will tell you that knowing what's going on around me at all times is a much more comforting feeling than being armed. Just some food for thought. If you have an immediate thread identified, like it sounds like you do, contact the authorities. Better to be proactive on that one. |
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Thanks for the advice FAST. i'm pretty aware of my surrounding 95% of the time. i'm the type of person that hates having their back to the crowd or a door. The subtle hints and feelings you get about certain things has saved me from various incidents, go with your gut feeling and not blow it off. SLR15 check your pm's. |
Ask about what they teach, and what they don't. I don't see how it's possible to responsibly cover the legal portion alone in less than an hour and a half without skimping -- there's not only the statutes and the principles that come out of case law, but issues of what to do -- and not to do -- in the wake of the use or threat of lethal force. If you already know how to shoot, that's probably going to be a lot more important than a review of Weaver vs. Isosceles. As to the specific class you mention, I try (sometimes successfully) to avoid either criticizing or praising how other instructors do things without having sat through at least much of their classes -- and since I haven't sat through any of his, I don't have an opinion about how he teaches. <Contenet removed as we do not alloww unpaid advertising on this site. ---dpmmn> |
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I really have to suggest that you shop wisely. There are good and bad instructors. Most of the instructors only came into being because of the law, and the ability to make a quick buck. Sad but very true! I hope that you choose your training based on the instructor and their experience with teaching. I sure can vouch for Defensive Edge classes, Greg Sullivan is a great instructor. I have to conceed that if McNeilsen vouches for the company that you googled then he knows of what he speaks. There are just way too many people that are out to take your money! |
PS a taser curent will travel through 2in of clothing and when you hit is much more effective than a handgun round!  ask me how I know.
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NOOOOOOOOOOO!
Sorry; I didn't mean confuse anybody. As to why I would "advertise" for a competitor of mine, I'll just raise a curious eyebrow and smile tolerantly and perhaps a touch superciliously at the notion; I was just stating a fact, rather than trying to promote a given instructor who I only know casually. Just to be clear: I have no desire either to promote his classes nor, err, sully his reputation, and am sorry that anybody for whatever reason, either thought otherwise, or affected to think otherwise..
As to advertising, I've already politely declined an overt offer to advertise on this website, and will now decline your implicit one; if the website owners would like to invite Mr. Martin (I do hope that mentioning his name won't be misconstrued as "advertising"!) to advertise here, I'm sure they can find his email address. As to the law of self-defense in Minnesota being "straight forward (sic)", I guess we're going to have to disagree, given the implications of Pendleton, Glowacki, et al, and particularly McCuiston, and the all-too-frequently-changing landscape. (Of course, if you're comparing it to self-defense law in Missouri, perhaps you have a point.) But perhaps I'm finding complications where you wouldn't -- then again, I have written the (so far, if only by process of elimination) definitive book on legal carry in Minnesota and Missouri and done certified CLE for both MN and ND lawyers and cops on such matters, so perhaps you might want to consider the possibility that I'm right. Or not; no problem, either way. We're also apparently going to have to disagree about whether two hours is longer than an hour and a half. :) (I don't make this stuff up, you know.) As to "gunfighting," I doubt that's something that's likely to be a good thing to worry about learning in an introductory carry class until one's got the basics of self-defense law down, and probably can't be learned -- assuming its desirable to learn it -- in a single class. Walk before you try to fly, and all, and don't expect to learn how to fly in a six-hour class that has to cover a lot of other stuff. |
Hope that clears that up for you. Hope does spring eternal. |
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(Actually, writing a book is easy -- you can ask just about anybody who hasn't done it, and they'll tell you.) |
I am writeing a book it is called ego maniacs and why they think they are important and feel the need to tell you so! I was wondering if I could interview you!
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Well, in an effort to pull this out of the crapper, here goes. I have taken several courses from Sully and have enjoyed them and learned a great deal. Lessons which are employed in everyday life and every time I shoot. My wife also recently graduated the Handgun 1 class and is a changed person after the class. She has applied for her CCW and is now competing in IPSC. Just as practice with your weapon(s) is an absolute must, so is new training and education. I'm sure most all would agree, one class does not make an expert. Education. Training. Practice. What you do in training/practice will be reflected 100% when a bad situation arrises and the presure is on. Education helps to keep you out of bad situations (hopefully). I will be the first one to say that I need more training and a great deal more education. I just need to find more time, I seemed to have misplaced all my time and can't find it. Anyone have any extra they want to sell? See ya at the range (or at class...yes Sully, I got the message!) Sleepy |
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for shits and giggles i stopped by GS today.. or where they use to be located. went over to the new place and i felt LOST being able to walk around and not bump into stuff or have to squeeze by people in the aisles. I have to say they did a HUGE step in the right direction by moving to that new location. I haven't been in there in a while, did Howards old dog pass away? I noticed he had what looked to be a spaniel puppy. |
 This thread has REALLY gone in the crapper...Thank you for chiming in TBS! Those who know me personally know I've got little if any ego, and I'm an expert in jack-shit... That said, I'll chime in with my $0.02... As previously stated by Sleepy717, It's all about Education. Training. And Practice. Diversifying one's Training & Education is a good thing. One can never have enough... I do know an author quite well, but I'll keep his opinions on fictional writing to myself as that's off-topic. I've not yet read Joel's authoritative book on the subject. Yet the attitude toward potential consumers, and those who HAVE read his book or taken his course seems a bit disdainful and disconcerting.  If anything we should be seeking the professional opinions of various Minnesota Judges, Lawyers, and other Professionals to assess their take and interpretation of Minnesota Concealed Carry Law to get a consensus on the grey areas of legislation and case law. Maybe an Author could be a decent source for this information... And maybe due to a derisive attitude... Who knows, but I don't claim to know everything... Likewise we should be seeking the best handgun and self-defense training we can find and reasonably afford in order to break bad habits, learn more effective and efficient deployment of defensive measures (Both Lethal and Non-Lethal), shooting under stress. Then one must contemplate which source would be the best for this aspect of self-defense training... Professionals in the line of duty that have been utilizing, instructing, and refining self-defense and handgun tactics, and use of force applications for years, or any ordinary person that got an NRA and/or AAFCI cert.? IMHO, We should not only be practicing as much as possible on our own, but we should be practicing by RETAKING courses with good instructors (this is the whole concept of Tactical Tuesdays & Defensive Edge Alumni Courses: continued, regular training & practice), and attending regular practice sessions with instructors present so you do not resort back to previously learned (or develop new) bad habits or defensive tactics. SO MY FINAL OPINION ON TRAINING IS THIS: Diversify your training! 1.) Take courses with multiple instructors to learn their varying views on the laws, their varying defensive use of firearms, and their shooting methods. 2.) Judge the quality/level of their instruction, and frequent the instructor(s) that you feel are most beneficial to your continued development and retention of defensive shooting skills. ** Once you've taken a course or two to learn the laws, the laws aren't going to change very much over time, as are the proper applications of force.** Once you learn those base things you can seek the training that you may deem the best to hone the skills needed to apply the proper levels of force. One can learn that better with a more established and reputable instructor than the numerous 'johnny come lately' That is exactly what I had done, and I'll continue to take more training courses to further hone my skills, knowledge, tactics, and the foundations they are built upon. I've attended Defensive Edge courses, and those of various other instructors. I'm also going to continue taking courses with other instructors (such as Bills GS, Tactical Tuesday, etc., as time & $$ allows), and thus far after trying a few instructors I've kept coming back to D.E. On the last note from SavageSlackie... The dog DIED!?!?!? Can anyone confirm this??? It probably had a heart attack seeing how much room there was to wander around in the new store!  I haven't been there yet, but will be going sometime in the next month or two to hopefully pick up a 1911 and some tumbling media for reloading.
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i don't know if it died or not, i was just asking because it is usually there and he had a puppy in there this time. I went in to look at a compact XD and another magazine for my 10mm. i'm headed back there tomorrow to pick up some ammo and i'll ask Howard then. now back to the subject. I'm in the process of trying to get some sort of official background check done on myself so i fulfill the Credential Category 1 for Defensive Edges Registration. I believe i will have to talk to someone at the BCA and have them do it because the local Sherrifs office said that they would have to have Defensive Edge send in a background check request on me. (The way i read DE's site i have to obtain those credentials myself.) |
Our credential policy is pretty simple. You can go to the BCA front desk and get a copy of your backgroud, we also accept a copy of your permit to purchase, a copy of a recently approved 4473, professional licenses that require backgrounds, etc. If you have specifics on this please ask. We know the credential policy can be a pain for some, it is something that we have always required and always will, as we don't want you or anyone else training on the range with people that maybe shouldn't be training. CY6 Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor SLR15 Rifles TheDefensiveEdge.com |
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I'm sorry if i came off like i was complaining, i wasn't. i totally understand the cover your ass angel and agree with your policy. I'm going to call the BCA today and hammer out the details. i won't make your class this weekend but that gives me a good opportunity to get some range time in. |
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I say let the consumer be an informer consumer! I sure as all hell will not be pulling out some book to consult when there are pressing matters at hand. Then again the Pope of the Church of Joel likes to press things that perhaps are best left the way they are. Arrogance does nothing to impress potential customers. Turns them off as far as I can tell. And, Joel it is gunfighting is not lunch at the library reading. It is about reacting to situation. Oh yeah, then again you subscribe that practicing skill sets is not important. You would rather have them mulling things over consulting your all important book. Oh yeah in ND the law written a long time ago, and it was put forth with out the fan fare of BS that has surrounded CC in MN. |
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[quote If anything we should be seeking the professional opinions of various Minnesota Judges, Lawyers, and other Professionals to assess their take and interpretation of Minnesota Concealed Carry Law to get a consensus on the grey areas of legislation and case law. I think that's an utterly terrific idea (forgetting, for the moment, that we don't have a "Concealed Carry Law" in Minnesota), and wish you well with it. You might or might not want to start with not just the "professional opinions" but the published opinions of judges and justices on various matters around self-defense and firearms law -- if you do, I'd suggest that you start with the Saunders case, as that's a particularly good example of how somebody who hasn't actually learned the law (but thinks that he has) can easily get himself into trouble. Best of luck with it -- if you do end up publishing a book on the subject, feel invited to send a set of bound galleys to me, and I'll offer a cover quote, if I think it's good. |
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geeeze. i guess let me put this another way. Joel, you are curently trolling and disrupting this thread. STOP IT NOW. i am not a lawyer nor am i an authority on pretty much anything. that said i am charged with enforcing the rules of this forum. Consider this my last warning. take it offline. mike |