Posted: 10/29/2004 1:02:10 PM EDT
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Greetings, I am polling to see what are peoples thoughts as to range location. We are in the process of thinking of getting our own range instead of leasing one. This would allow more weekend courses, as well as less interuptions. I am currently looking for an old gravel pit or land, so if someone knows of a piece of land or old pit that could be obtained please let me know. The biggest question is: How far out in travel time from the metro would people still be willing to make the trek to the range, a range that would allow for the things that we practice and preach in our courses. Obviously people always want closer, but if we are going to get this done I want to make sure that it is a range that will be a range for 15-20years to come without someone building houses close by. Stay Safe, Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor www.thedefensiveedge.com |
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There are a bunch of Gravel Pits down by my hometown in Le Sueur County (not sure if some are for sale though), but that's a pretty long drive from the metro area... It takes me about 1hr to get there from downtowm MPLS if there is little traffic. IIRC, it's ~65 miles from downtown, MN. But then getting to the gravel pits might be a bit "tricky" on back country roads... Many people (myself included) would like to see something a bit closer, but as you said, with more permanence... I'll scan websites & newspapers for property sales for you as well. If I find something with potential, I'll email you the info. I certainly hope that *ALL OF YOU MEMBERS* will actively help Sully in search of a permanent place of business! This could SERIOUSLY help US by HELPING HIM. If he gets a company RANGE, he may later get a company STORE/SHOP/SHELTER built there as well... A company-owned range could help Defensive Edge in MANY expanding ways: - TRAINING OPTIONS WITH NO DOWN-TIME! - Creation of a Store/Shop/Shelter. .....a.) This could be a place to stay *WARM* on those winter/cold weather training classes. .....b.) This could be a CLASSROOM for them to host their ARMORING courses (with special shop/tool workspaces/tables). As well as being GREAT for firearm safety, CCW legality, and other course-related classroom space. .....c.) This could be further expanded into a break/lunch room with vending machines for food/snacks/drinks. (Additional light income for Defensive Edge) .....d.) This could be expanded to a SHOP/STORE for them to start selling AR-15 REPLACEMENT PARTS that could be kept in stock. .....e.) This could be a launch platform for other related D.E. business ventures if the building is designed to be adaptable to future needs. I foresee this being a HUGE asset to Defensive Edge in the future, and would gladly help in any way possible. - A range where RAPID FIRE IS TOTALLY COOL! - A range where us AR-15 owners WILL *NOT* feel like outcasts! - A range where you can likely be ASSURED that the person next to you is proficient in the SAFE USE of his or her firearm. (Instead of getting a Glock pointed at your C.O.M. by a giddy newbie lady as happened to me @ A.F. for those of you that remember) - A range where you can NOT ONLY get great training, but ALSO get great PRACTICE opportunities! - A range that is relatively close, but it offers more FREEDOMS for D.E. Alumni/Members than other existing ranges! I FRIGGIN LOVE THE IDEA! I hope members/alumni will help out in this quest for a suitable property to purchase! 
I think that if he owned his own property, perhaps the company would be open to allowing a couple people to tent/camp on site near a burning barrel/bonfire pit if they are proven to be responsible, respectable persons who help keep the range clean. |
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We have so many empty gravel pits and mining pits up north here, I wish I could give some to you guys down south Looking forward to hopefully taking some classes in the future down that way, as soon as the employment thing works out. I'm willing to drive any distance for some good training. I'm not really helping the orginal post, but thought I'd share...lol |
come north, oh gun master. Somewhere between the Fargo, St. Cloud and Minneapolis area. Population is the key. But you already know that. Is south of the cities more populated than north? The Fargo-Moorhead area has more than 100,000 people, I don't know what St. Cloud has. Hell I drive 5 hours to shoot with you guys. 
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I've trained with you... I'm glad you made the effort! |
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We are seriously looking, so if anyone knows of a location please let us know. I am not finding much in the west metro that isn't way over priced. I did find some flat land north of Milaca and around Isle and Onamia, to include a huge gravel pit near Little Falls (which might be a little far). I am not opposed to south of the metro either. I would prefer an old gravel pit or quarry, as you already have a large hole in the ground, which to me is better than having to excavate a flat piece of land, but I would settle for a flat piece of land if the right location is available. Deltone/Luth is out. We had several discussions with them when they first acquired that facility, but their lease price is so high that we would have to double our class tuition which is something that I refuse to do. We started Defensive Edge many years ago on the basis of making available high quality training that is affordable by the average person, this is something that we will strive to keep going in the future. In May 2003 the MN Personal Protection Act went into effect and you saw all sorts of training outfits all of a sudden appear, you saw the local indoor ranges raise their prices etc, but we at Defensive Edge actually lowered our prices. Again we strive to make high quality training affordable and available to the average person, in case you haven't figured it out by now we support shooting and owning guns!!!  If we get our own range it will be black rifle friendly, would you expect anything less??? I would be able to do more that what we can do out our current leased location. I would also want to put in a lodge/classroom (heated of course), and this is where those from out of town could spend the night free of charge. On the Thunderranch/Clint Smith issue, from what I know they are moving it to Oregon because that is where Heidi Smith (the misses) is from and that is where she wants to live. The Texas location was only leased. Anyways any help on a location would be great, so if you see, hear, know of a place, and especially if you know someone in the excavation or gravel business that might know of an old pit, please let us know!!! I will offer free tuition for 5 years to anyone who finds and helps coordinate the place that we will make our future home!!! Stay Safe, Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor www.thedefensiveedge.com |
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From my experience the first thing to fill up with water is a hole in the ground. Old gravel pits aren't very easy on the eyes either. A flat piece of ground out in the woods somewhere would be nice. The thunder ranch deal- now there is a real sound business decision. 
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It'd be great if you could find someplace south of the Cities, I could actually attend. Plus there's a pretty good population explosion along the I35 corridor, although that could be bad for range longevity. South Metro would make it easier for people from Mankato, Rochester, Faribault, Owatonna, etc to attend. There's probably 2-300,000 people living within a band 40 miles either side of I35 from Lakeville to the Iowa border. Extend that to 60 miles, you add Winona ,Lake City, etc. If you look over near Rochester, there's the beginning of bluff country, you won't need a gravel pit, the natural hills work well. |
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Sully; Vast excavation of gravel ongoing in Rochester area for Hwy 52 project.. will progress north with project movement. Currently, a large expanse of land is for sale just north of Oronoco (currently an Elk farm). I'll check with some local county/township board members at next meeting.. maybe someone is aware of suitable properties. Would love to have you in SE MN area! Bravo5-2 |
For frame of reference.. that elk farm is 1 hour and 15 minutes from my house in Plymouth. Elk as bonus targets? |
LOL!... not sure the elk go with the property sale.. some HUGE Bulls in the herd. Talked to some local township board members today at my voting poll.. asked them to let me know what land may be available for the stated purpose of firing range/training/etc. They will do some checking and make inquiries at the county level. Hope to hear some positive feedback from them. Bravo5-2 BUSH-CHENEY 04 |
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Sully, FWIW, if you are serious about considering an area south of the Metro, land prices in Cannon Falls are pretty reasonable. I was recently looking for land to build a house on and found the prices there to be significantly cheaper than in Dakota/Scott/Washington County areas. Cannon Falls is on the northern edge of Goodhue County at the southern border of Dakota County along Hwy 52. For anyone from Mpls/St. Paul area south to Rochester and over to Mankato/St. Peter/Lesueur, that area would be ideal (and besides, I'm in that triangle). You might also find that area attractive for drawing in some of cheesehead brothers from across the border. Sorry Hollywood, it might be kind of a road trip for you. Good luck in your quest to improve and grow your business. If I can be of further assistance, let me know. (edited because I can't type) |
| Sully, if you want the most exposure to Twin Cities folks, I'd keep it within 45 minutes of the Downtown Areas. Right now, I'd probably take classes very often if I didn't have to dedicate a whole day of travel, even just to Princeton. If you want more people to attend, that's my $.02 |
Thats not really a very big range. That's no further north than Forest Lake, no further south than Lakeville, no further west than the western side of Lake Minnetonka, and there's no place east at all. Land in that radius will be prohibitively expensive and will be surrounded by housing developments, or will be in 5-10 years. Even the American Legion Range in Elko is starting to get housing popping up around it. GRRC in Harris is starting to get scared about nearby developments. If you wanted a range to last 20 years, I wouldn't put it any closer than 70 miles outside of the 494/694 loop, which would make it a 90 minute drive from downtown. |
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If you're really truelly serious about it lasting for 20years without housing causing troubles from encroachment, you're realisticaly looking at land North of St. Cloud (Just ask Del-tone! their getting squeezed), West of Buffalo, or something Northeast (Slightly North/NE of Princeton). I can tell you first hand that their is alot of land in the Little Falls area that would be perfect and reasonably cheap if you get out on the dirt roads aways. Sully, If this is an acceptable option, let me know, I still have some contacts in land in the area since we have picked-up several 20 and 40 acre lots in the past five years for the future. I have a perfect space for a range but unfortunatly it is also a perfect lot for my retirement dreams. If you wish me to follow-up, I must receive a reply stating that this area would be acceptable. I understand if it's to much of a drive but just consider how fast St. Cloud has moved in on Del-tone. Also, if you are considering (seriously) you should probably IM or Email me with your acceptable budget and just how much land you are realistically considering. 40, 60, 80 acres? It is available up here! If interested, please let me know. Gunbum in the great white north. |
I hear you, but don't expect me to make it more than once or twice a year if I have to drive to Harris, Atwater, Mankato or Sauk Centre to go shooting for a day. Most other people are the same way. You may not like it, but that's the way things are. The closer any business is the the Twin Cities, the more exposure to potential clients they have. That's just the way it works. |
*shrug* what other choice is there? Gun ranges aren't exactly people friendly unless you're a participant. I enjoy shooting very much, but I'd sure as hell fight tooth and nail if a commercial range wanted to upon up within ear shot of my home. (yes, NIMBY). Unfortunetly, cans are illegal in Minnesota. I'm assuming Sully is looking for something around 120 acres in size, that'll be about $700,000 in your perimeter, plus the higher taxes closer to the cities. That's an awful lot of students at $100 per head. Would you rather pay $200 a day, or drive another hour and pay $100? |
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We have been doing our open to the public courses at Princeton since 1997, and will continue to do so until we find another home. In case nobody has noticed, they are starting to build more near the Princeton range, so it is just a matter of time before somebody builds on top of it or enough complaints come in that it is shut down. This is not a post to start a whining session about how the whiners are wrong and should have to put up with the range being there since it was there long before they built their house. This post is to get everyone proactively looking to help find a new home before we have to be reactionary. We are looking in areas north and northeast of the Princeton area, lots of swamp but we are still looking. We have looked in western Wright county, but land is way overpriced. We have looked and found some great areas around Little Falls, but some the investors for this venture are saying it is too far. I have not looked south or southwest of the metro, but am open to ideas. We need to find a miniumum of 20-40 acres for Defensive Edge, with an optimum of a more to accomodate the Machine Gunners and Tankers if possible. I am not opposed to flat land and having to have it excavated for burms, but a nice hillside or an old quarry or gravel pit that is now just a hole in the ground would be optimum. Does anyone know of anyone who has been in the gravel or asphalt business for several years that might know of a place??? I would like to keep it about 90-minutes from the metro, but would opt for a little longer if the right place was found. Stay Safe, Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor www.thedefensiveedge.com |
Actually, I'd rather pay $200. I think the courses are worth it, but am busy with family and business, so time is harder to find. I know it's difficult to find an ideal "best of both worlds". The "gravel pit concept" is great due to sound suppression. much can be done to contain sound with landscaping and so forth. Just because people don't like it in their backyard doesn't mean that this isn't a legitimate business with a right to exist. I know that's not what you're saying, back40, but my point is we have to support our ranges and keep them open regardless of their location. If they keep getting pushed out further, it's like having a de-facto gun ban. I live in S. Mpls and have several rifles, but if I can never use them without driving 2 or 3 hours, what's the point? Most people in my shoes might just give up, sell their guns for tennis shoes and become antis. Not me, but I'd still like a nice place to shoot 'em... |
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The thing about shooting ranges is that all of them are being squished! Red Wing (North Star) has housing edging in on them! GRRC has a lot of land, but look how the cities are expanding! DelTone is getting pushed! We all have to make sacrafices to go shooting. I drive 18 miles to shoot out in Mound, and 32 to go to Dakota County. Indoors is 10 miles away. So, driving within 75 miles is not a big deal. Hell I used to drive 80 miles to shoot in a Highpower League. I did it cause I wanted to! I would drive to Harris, Red Wing, Billings, MT so we have to indulge ourselves! Look how many people drive way up north to go fishing! It is all about choices! I say more power to Sully and crew if they find a venue that works! From what I have heard and read Thunder Ranch, Gunsite, Front Site, and other venues all are out in the sticks! |
That's alright if it's down that way, my parents still have the farm near Mantorville. I know it's definately going to be too far North, but the Brainerd area has a lot of gravel pits, and wooded land for sale. We also lost the only good range in the area, Eckelman's, a couple of years ago. He had a 300-400 yard rifle range and everything. |
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I've been biting my tounge but no more. Some of you people are really a bunch of pussies. One guy doesnt want to travel more than 45 minutes.  One guy says the classes are too early. You've got to be kidding me. I drive 5 hours and spend a night in a motel besides paying for training. I have a family and a business also, those are just bullshit excuses. Kiss my ass lightweights. I think if DE had to rely on clowns like this to make a buck he'd be broke in a week. I am guessing Sully want to take this thing to the next level. I see world class ranges, indoor training facilites (martial arts, hand-to-hand) and a bunk house. I would say maybe within an hour or 2 of the Airport so bigshots with real money can come. Little Falls is pretty close to Camp Ripley. Potential clients there.Not making friends today, Infantryman out.
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Bravo
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An hour and a half drive wouldn't be too big a deal for me. I'm mean it's one weekend a month, someone on the south side could always carpool with me too. I"m used to going 3 hours up to the folks house twice a month to go shoot in a pit. You're going to have to get a bit away from the Cities to not be pushed out and find something affordable. I can't help much about land around here, my supervisor lives in Pine City tho, I can ask him if he knows of anything. |
What I've heard from guys that have been through the Shoot House at Ripley is that it pretty much sucks. I don't think the shoot house itself sucks, it's the fact that they won't let them do much when they train there. The last training that they did they went all the way down to the Annandale (sp?) Shoot House. If you built up in the Little Falls or Brainerd area, I'm sure the Crow Wing County and Little Falls Tac Teams would be pretty good customers, along with a lot of the other PD's in the area. |
Jakezor, check your spelling on my name. FYI, it's also posted next to my Avatar 
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I'll still be your friend, Infantryman! My parents live in Moorhead and I only get to their house twice a year at best. Between family, friends, Mine and my wife's businesses, there's not as much time in the week as I'd like to shoot. I know every person's situation is different, I'm just letting Sully know how things are for me since he asked. I wish I could find more time to train, and if training involved an overnight stay, I'd probably not make it. That's just me. Call me a wannabe, maybe I am. If I had to do hostage rescues, entries and squad tactics every day, I may feel different about training. As it is now, It's not a #1 priority in my life. I pride myself on being prepared for the unknown, but I have to draw the line somewhere.  I'd still like to train if it can be done in a day, so hopefully Sully will come up with a solution. I'm sure my situation isn't unique, and it's a big, big city... |
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Ladies and Gentlemen, I have had a few responses on locations. Please keep looking. I am open to a multitude of locations and am not picky about which end of the metro or from the metro we have to go. I believe a hole in the ground (old gravel pit) would be best as then all that would need to be done is do some burming to create different areas, and by being below ground level it helps control noise. If we must use flat ground and dig from there that is fine, but this approach would entail quite a bit of excavation. mcnielsen, If you are aware of any place that is in the metro or close enough to the metro that would fit yours and others commuting time, then please let us know. Simply put to all, Ranges have been and are being shut down all over the state for the last several years due to housing being built. I totally believe that ranges should be protected, but so far the legistlators have not done their part to protect exhisting ranges. Too many ranges no longer exhist!!! It is just a matter of time before the Princeton range will feel the squeeze, as well as look at what DelTone has had to go through and will probably keep being an uphill battle in the future. Simply put, we at Defensive Edge and our Alumni want to find a place that we can make a home for now and the future, a place that welcomes firearms and their owners to come and experience safe and proper gun usage, and place that we can all know that will be available 365 days a year to use, and will be there for many years to come. If that means that the location is a jaunt from our metro populus then so be it. I do remember a famous quote: "If you Build It They Will Come"!!! Stay Safe, Greg Sullivan "Sully" Chief Instructor www.thedefensiveedge.com |
Sully: I was a realtor in Portland and am in the process of moving my license and business over to SD. I came over to the Minnesota side to see what was going on.... A couple of comments: Asking current and past gravel pit owners if they know of available lots is a good idea. You may consider putting together a letter... or better yet conducting a phone campaign .... or best yet meet them face-to-face over lunch... to contact all the owners of sites in the area. If you know people (your investors(?)) that have relationships with the perspective property owners - win. A realtor can also help you with this process. It may make sense for you to ask the pit owners if they have a real estate agent/broker that specializes in their market. Working with one or more realtors may help you find the right fit. There are two schools of thought here, one a dedicated agent MAY put in the extra work needed to find you the right property and fit - or telling several agents what you are looking for and giving them the heads up about what your needs are may generate several good leads for you. Regardless the agents only get paid when you find the right property. One of the advantages of going with an existing pit/cement operation is they tend to be noisy. If neighbors have complained you may be able to get good information through the disclosure process. Using an existing commercial area with existing noise issues will be much easier that trying to rezone a noncommercial site. Noise and nuisance cases are hard to predict but your thinking about being further out is a good one. Check the zoning to see what the surrounding areas are. Anything you can do to narrow the search parameters involved in your property search the better. On a personal I am interested in finding quality places to shoot... and hunt. I saw the posts with the elk and I am very interested in finding a combination hunting/shooting club. You mentioned other investors in your post. If you put up some of the numbers you are thinking of (acreage, development costs, anticipated revenues, etc) others here may be interested too. With larger acreage the neighbor issues are reduced and the possibility of building infrastructure like concrete bollards(?) for creating safe distance ranges may become practical. I think a tactical friendly hunting club with long distance range would ....(excuse me)..... kick butt! For me, the closer to SD, the better. Locations near state or federal land would be very cool! Especially if there is an ownership stake and potential for a return on investment from training courses, conferences, etc. Something to consider. Blair PS Edits for grammar and spelling ... sorry for the long post but something like this would be .... very exciting. |