Posted: 12/11/2010 9:49:45 AM EDT
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Hey guys,
I know with preban mags, people use mags as long as they aren't dated, and say it is on the state to prove they are post-ban (which is almost impossible) Is this the same for lowers? If you come across an older lower, without a date, and no information, is it on the state to prove its a postban? Or will it be considered a post-ban unless it can be proven a preban? |
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It is always on the state to prove your guilt. That is the way our criminal justice system works. I always like to remember that any time I "mess with the bull", I just "might get the horn".
I would really want to insure that the mags were legal. Even if your high paid attorney gets you a not guilty verdict from the jury, my guess is that it would be far cheaper to buy magazines that you KNOW are pre-ban rather than to pay an attorney thousands of dollars for the not guilt verdict. |
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Quoted: Is this the same for lowers? If you come across an older lower, without a date, and no information, is it on the state to prove its a postban? It's always on the state, but I would make sure you have one that you are very confident is preban. When I first moved to CT, I carried around a folder that had letters confirming date of manufacture as well as the relevant sections of CT law. I don't anymore, but I keep the folder in a safe place. If you're asking, I wouldn't buy a "questionable" lower with the motivation of "well, I'll let the state prove it if/when they give me a problem." |
| Yeah, I'm not planning to buy anything that I wouldn't be 100% confident isn't preban. I have one now, and I'll add more to the collection over time, but I noticed over on the mag section everyone believes as long as it's not dated, it's okay to be considered preban. Was wondering if it was going to be the same for lowers as well. |
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Quoted:
Have you considered the fact that every lower has a SERIAL NUMBER that the manufacturer has on record with associated info like oh, I dunno... DATE OF MANUFACTURE? Can you find me the records on Sendra Arms? How about RGM? A lot of records are lost, and how about a homemade lower? No record there. |
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Guys, there are lowers out there that are "assumed" preban because there's no way to absolutely confirm the date of manufacture. These are in the minority, but they're out there. I believe these are what the OP is referring to. There are also lowers from big manufacturers where there's an internet-accepted "preban date" but the manufacturer won't/can't back it up. OP, you should read the sticky in this forum on this subject, you will likely find more than enough information. |
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Quoted:
Guys, there are lowers out there that are "assumed" preban because there's no way to absolutely confirm the date of manufacture. These are in the minority, but they're out there. I believe these are what the OP is referring to.
There are also lowers from big manufacturers where there's an internet-accepted "preban date" but the manufacturer won't/can't back it up. OP, you should read the sticky in this forum on this subject, you will likely find more than enough information. thanks for the clarification |
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Yeah, I've read the sticky before. I know of the basic list of accepted preban.
I was however talking about the lowers that don't have records, and since people consider mags without dates preban, I was wondering if it would be the same for lowers as well. Thanks for the info though. |
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I'd figure they run the SN on the lower. If police bust you for assault weapon violation, that's how they will prove it.
Also in my state, some weapons are banned by name, like Colt sporter and Colt ar15. No Colts are allowed, unless they are registered as assault weapons. |
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Quoted:
I'd figure they run the SN on the lower. If police bust you for assault weapon violation, that's how they will prove it. Also in my state, some weapons are banned by name, like Colt sporter and Colt ar15. No Colts are allowed, unless they are registered as assault weapons. Except: Preban: Colt Carbine .223 Postban: Entire Match Target line Any non "AR15" or "Sporter" marked rifles in postban configuration. |
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Quoted:
Yeah, I've read the sticky before. I know of the basic list of accepted preban. I was however talking about the lowers that don't have records, and since people consider mags without dates preban, I was wondering if it would be the same for lowers as well. Thanks for the info though. Are you in posession of one of these lowers? If not, don't buy one. There are plenty of preban lowers with well accepted cutoff dates floating around. |
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I do have a Sendra lower, which is kind of an out there lower, with no way to absolutely prove its preban, however it has a very low SN, and no milled circle, so I figure it would be accepted. I picked it up extremely cheap, so I couldn't resist. I do however plan to expand my collection, so it's not the only lower I'll depend on. However, college expenses don't allow me a ton of money to buy what I need/want.
I don't plan to buy any no-name lower unless I can 100% verify it's preban, either by company paperwork, or common knowledge. I was just wondering in due to the preban magazine issue. Thanks for all the info P.S. I am moving to CT so I do know the gun laws up there, in regards to Colt, etc etc. Not 100% excited to move up there, but the fiancee's school is more important to her than me 
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Have you considered the fact that every lower has a SERIAL NUMBER that the manufacturer has on record with associated info like oh, I dunno... DATE OF MANUFACTURE? Can you find me the records on Sendra Arms? How about RGM? A lot of records are lost, and how about a homemade lower? No record there. Sendra, for example, would have forwarded their form2s to ATF, although I'd assume that Sendra was out of the game well before the 94 ban.... ETA if you need to contact the owner of Sendra, Dick Drasen, I believe he now runs M&A parts. He may have a listing of dates, etc. |
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Thanks for letting me know about M&A! I know his (I think daughters) run M&A, but didn't know he was still alive/running M&A. As I read before I believe their paperwork was actually given to Bushmaster, who no longer has the records (I've emailed and called about them) so I don't believe the ATF has them either.
Again, Thanks for the help with the Sendra. I know for a fact they did have lowers after the ban, however they were higher in cutoff, and had a Circle milled into the right side of the magwell. Both of which are not a problem with mine. |
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Quoted:
Hey guys, I know with preban mags, people use mags as long as they aren't dated, and say it is on the state to prove they are post-ban (which is almost impossible) Is this the same for lowers? If you come across an older lower, without a date, and no information, is it on the state to prove its a postban? Or will it be considered a post-ban unless it can be proven a preban? I frankly don't know a hell of a lot about Connecticut and Massachusetts procedures and practices. Safe to say, in CT at least, if your pre-ban rifle becomes the subject of an investigation by the CT State Police Special Licensing and Firearms Unit, you will have to kick and scream to get it back. 
The policies in New York State are interesting and relevent to OP (assuming he is from PA), so, I will go through them here. Disclaimer: I have heard this second hand from a friend who has spent a good deal of time talking with the New York State Police Gun Investigations Unit. 1. Magazines. ...In New York State, if your standard capacity magazines become the subject of an investigation, the burden will be upon YOU to prove that the magazines are in fact pre-ban. In practice, you get a pass if they are DATE STAMPED. If they are not DATE STAMPED, your magazines can (and likely will) be confiscated and you will be asked to furnish proof of manufacturer and manufacture date. In other words, you'll probably have to hire a damn lawyer to ascertain the facts. Given that many magazines are not specifically identified and many magazine manufacturers have gone out of business, you may be up shit creek without a spoon even if the magazines are in fact legal. 2. Rifles. ...In New York State, if you have a pre-ban rifle, and it becomes the subject of an investigation, it will be confiscated and sent to GIU for forensic examination to confirm the lower receiver is in fact pre-ban. If a post-ban rifle becomes the subject of an investigation, then you are potentially exposed to a world of legal shit. What the GIU will focus on is any questionable muzzle device. GIU will likely test the permanency of the weld and the pinning (if any) of the muzzle brake. I am not aware of a minimum torque threshold and it is unclear if there even is one that is consistently applied. If the GIU is able to remove the muzzle brake (not conceivably difficult, given how thin the wire is for pinning), you can be charged with possesession of an assault weapon (as defined under NY penal law). Consider these the "worst case" interactions in NY, as your interaction may vary with jurisdiction and individual LEO discretion. However, these are NY State Police policies (at least in certain counties), so do be careful, especially as you get closer to NYC (i.e., Westchester County, Nassau County, Suffolk County). |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Hey guys, I know with preban mags, people use mags as long as they aren't dated, and say it is on the state to prove they are post-ban (which is almost impossible) Is this the same for lowers? If you come across an older lower, without a date, and no information, is it on the state to prove its a postban? Or will it be considered a post-ban unless it can be proven a preban? I frankly don't know a hell of a lot about Connecticut and Massachusetts procedures and practices. Safe to say, in CT at least, if your pre-ban rifle becomes the subject of an investigation by the CT State Police Special Licensing and Firearms Unit, you will have to kick and scream to get it back.
The policies in New York State are interesting and relevent to OP (assuming he is from PA), so, I will go through them here. Disclaimer: I have heard this second hand from a friend who has spent a good deal of time talking with the New York State Police Gun Investigations Unit. 1. Magazines. ...In New York State, if your standard capacity magazines become the subject of an investigation, the burden will be upon YOU to prove that the magazines are in fact pre-ban. In practice, you get a pass if they are DATE STAMPED. If they are not DATE STAMPED, your magazines can (and likely will) be confiscated and you will be asked to furnish proof of manufacturer and manufacture date. In other words, you'll probably have to hire a damn lawyer to ascertain the facts. Given that many magazines are not specifically identified and many magazine manufacturers have gone out of business, you may be up shit creek without a spoon even if the magazines are in fact legal. 2. Rifles. ...In New York State, if you have a pre-ban rifle, and it becomes the subject of an investigation, it will be confiscated and sent to GIU for forensic examination to confirm the lower receiver is in fact pre-ban. If a post-ban rifle becomes the subject of an investigation, then you are potentially exposed to a world of legal shit. What the GIU will focus on is any questionable muzzle device. GIU will likely test the permanency of the weld and the pinning (if any) of the muzzle brake. I am not aware of a minimum torque threshold and it is unclear if there even is one that is consistently applied. If the GIU is able to remove the muzzle brake (not conceivably difficult, given how thin the wire is for pinning), you can be charged with possesession of an assault weapon (as defined under NY penal law). Consider these the "worst case" interactions in NY, as your interaction may vary with jurisdiction and individual LEO discretion. However, these are NY State Police policies (at least in certain counties), so do be careful, especially as you get closer to NYC (i.e., Westchester County, Nassau County, Suffolk County). I'm glad I'm not moving to NY I am actually asking because I will be moving up to CT soon, but it is nice to get some semi-solid information about the different AWBs out there. I always read that as long as the mags aren't stamped it was okay, so I was assuming it might be the same for rifles, but with that information I don't know if I'd be 100% comfortable (not that I am now) with a supposed preban that no one can get information on.
Thanks! |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Have you considered the fact that every lower has a SERIAL NUMBER that the manufacturer has on record with associated info like oh, I dunno... DATE OF MANUFACTURE? Can you find me the records on Sendra Arms? How about RGM? A lot of records are lost, and how about a homemade lower? No record there. Sendra, for example, would have forwarded their form2s to ATF, although I'd assume that Sendra was out of the game well before the 94 ban.... ETA if you need to contact the owner of Sendra, Dick Drasen, I believe he now runs M&A parts. He may have a listing of dates, etc. Form 2s are only for NFA items. They would, however, have been required to forward their production and A&D records to ATF when they went out of business. |
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1. Magazines. ...In New York State, if your standard capacity magazines become the subject of an investigation, the burden will be upon YOU to prove that the magazines are in fact pre-ban. In practice, you get a pass if they are DATE STAMPED. If they are not DATE STAMPED, your magazines can (and likely will) be confiscated and you will be asked to furnish proof of manufacturer and manufacture date. In other words, you'll probably have to hire a damn lawyer to ascertain the facts. Given that many magazines are not specifically identified and many magazine manufacturers have gone out of business, you may be up shit creek without a spoon even if the magazines are in fact legal.
With non-stamped mags it could be easier to prove with some than others- for example, some contactors that made them verifiably ended manufacturing operations well before the 1994 ban date––though, as you say, it would be best to get a stamped mag and avoid the situation altogether. an even bigger problem that I have seen in both NYS and MASS is unscrupulous dealers selling unstamped current production mags as prebans. With CPRODUCTS, and certain other brands,it is very easy to verify that the mag could in no way have been made before the ban- simply based on corp data. |
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Quoted:
1. Magazines. ...In New York State, if your standard capacity magazines become the subject of an investigation, the burden will be upon YOU to prove that the magazines are in fact pre-ban. In practice, you get a pass if they are DATE STAMPED. If they are not DATE STAMPED, your magazines can (and likely will) be confiscated and you will be asked to furnish proof of manufacturer and manufacture date. In other words, you'll probably have to hire a damn lawyer to ascertain the facts. Given that many magazines are not specifically identified and many magazine manufacturers have gone out of business, you may be up shit creek without a spoon even if the magazines are in fact legal.
With non-stamped mags it could be easier to prove with some than others- for example, some contactors that made them verifiably ended manufacturing operations well before the 1994 ban date––though, as you say, it would be best to get a stamped mag and avoid the situation altogether. Sure thing, you know that and I know that there are ways of knowing if a mag is pre-ban. But a NY State Trooper who pulls you over isn't necessarily going to know that on the spot, and so you risk getting them confiscated. The (bona fide, of course) date stamped mag saves you the trouble at the point of interaction as well as additional investigational headache. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I'd figure they run the SN on the lower. If police bust you for assault weapon violation, that's how they will prove it. Also in my state, some weapons are banned by name, like Colt sporter and Colt ar15. No Colts are allowed, unless they are registered as assault weapons. Except: Preban: Colt Carbine .223 Postban: Entire Match Target line Any non "AR15" or "Sporter" marked rifles in postban configuration. Or registered machineguns meeting other state laws, but I'm just complicating things now. |
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1) I think it will always be easier to defend an A1 style lower 2) Do not simply believe that a manufacturer will rush to promise that a given lower is preban. I had to beg Olympic to confirm that a lower was made before 1994 because they could not wrap their heads around the fact that CT doesn't have "complete rifle" language. Don't ask them if anything is "preban" right off the bat. Ask for date of manufacture of the lower. - BG |