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Posted: 3/19/2006 6:12:37 PM EDT
I am not ready to take one, but are there any carbine training classes in central OK? Is this more of a Tulsa or Texas thing?
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 7:13:12 PM EDT
We don't have any really really good training in OKC. The closest thing is TDSA.
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 7:17:20 PM EDT
What is TDSA?
Link Posted: 3/19/2006 8:58:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Josh-L:
We don't have any really really good training in OKC. The closest thing is TDSA.


We looked into setting up a training regimen for rifles/carbines involving short ranges up to 75 yds. The liability insurance was extremely high and fairly prohibitive.
Also a big question in setting up such a class is the objectives. Do we want to do a combat style course, urban vs bush, barricade shooting, etc. or just a basic markmanship course involving timed fire, prone shooting, shooting from the sitting postiion, etc..
Of course we could set up some type of "course" where people pay us to tell them where, when, and how much to shoot with no objectives except for us to make money.
Here is what I think a class should consist of:
Rifle nonclementure, assembly & disassembly, cleaning & maintenance, basic markmanship (involving trigger and breathing control, shooting from prone, sitting, kneeling, standing), ballistics and ranging targets to 300 meters, rapid and timed fire at distances up to 300 meters, and a short run & shoot course. That looks to be about 32 to 40 hours, 400 to 500 rounds of ammo, and the necessity for a really good range. The objective to make someone more comfortable and a better shot with their AR. Which most people can do on their own if they have the inclination and desire to do so without spending a lot of money for a rifle course!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 3:31:55 AM EDT
All the things you list I have already completed through the Marine Corps. I was looking for something a little more advanced. That would be a great class that EVERYONE who owns an AR should have. It seems that most of these things could be accomplished without having a formal class set upi though. Perhaps an informal "donation" system....but more realistically, these are probably things that experienced shooters should pass on to the new guys for free. Thanks for the responses!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 7:43:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 8:41:27 AM EDT
That is what I was looking for, thanks. Has anyone taken the urban rifle class they offer?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 11:27:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gardman007:
That is what I was looking for, thanks. Has anyone taken the urban rifle class they offer?


If you are looking for something like MOUT training, you'll be disappointed.
The best ranges I've seen for urban training is at Camp Gruber and not open to the public. Nothing else in this state or surrounding states available to civilians and LE come close and are very poor in comparison.
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 12:39:59 PM EDT
I'm not really looking for full out MOUT training. Frankly, unless one is with a squad (or at least a fireteam) of others that know what they are doing, I don't think MOUT training would be very helpful. I am just looking for somthing a little more advanced than what I learned in the Marines. Every Marine is trained in known distance slow and rapid fire, as well as unknown distances with pop-up targets. We are also introduced to low-vis, gas mask, moving targets, multiple targets etc. We are not taught anything regarding CQB. I'm sure the grunts do all of that, but I don't think I will be re-enlisting and doing a lat move into infantry just to learn this stuff.
So for basic close quarters carbine training, how is this class? Is it worth 400 bucks? I guess I should make very clear that I am not an officer, I just want to learn as much about shooting as I can.
Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 3:41:25 PM EDT
Unless you see written specific course objectives and have clearly defined what you want to learn, it would be hit or miss as to whether you will achieve anything by attending such a class.
An individual engaged in real CQB is probably already screwed just by being there, so almost all classes concerning CQB will be taught as team tactics.
If you are looking for a CQB survival class, I am almost sure it will not be what you want.
I believe their curriculum is mostly aimed at SWAT type training for High Risk Warrant Teams.
A part of their curriculum is outfitting the rifle for the mission - an offensive position.
I'd look for a local PD that might be having a Patrol Carbine Class and see if they will allow you to participate - not unlikely if you are active military.
Dynamic entries, room clearing, etc are not something that would be taught in a 16 hour course at Tulsa.
From looking over their class outline, I'd say it be mostly shoot this way, shoot that way, clean your rifle, let's shoot at targets in this direction, in this manner, OK, now transition to your handgun in this fashion. etc, etc. Inotherwords, you are paying them lots of money to shoot ammo on their range at their direction.
The way I think - if I am going into close quarters, screw the AR - I want my 870!
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:44:13 PM EDT
Yeah, I see what you mean. I am not active military, I am reserve (and I EAS in may). My father retired from a local PD, so I guess some of the guys might teach me some things. I hear about these "shoot houses" in other parts of this website.....but I guess those are in other states? Perhaps Texas would have somthing along these lines?
Link Posted: 3/20/2006 5:48:45 PM EDT
The one instructor, Curt Nichols, is an associate of Curtis Higgins. I've met him a time or two in Curtis' shop. I can't vouch for his instructor abilities, but he knows his shit in a machine shop as well as all manner of HKs and FNCs. www.tdsatulsa.com/instructors.php
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:06:55 AM EDT
There is a facility in Grandfield- Bad Lands Tactical and one in Shawnee-Shoot-n-Iron. Not a recommendation of either, just letting you know.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:51:28 AM EDT
After seeing it on the TDSA site, I was wondering what the heck IDPA was. I hunted down their website, and really liked what I read about it. So here are a bunch more questions for you guys.

Has anybody shot in IDPA competition?

Is there anything similar to IDPA for rifles?

What about 3 gun competitions?

I checked out the Badlands website. It seems that their instructors have a lot of military experience, but not as much specific firearms experience as the guys at TDSA.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 3:34:29 PM EDT
I just want to give you a link to a thread........... this is the place i plan on taking a class from....
It is suposed to teach fighting tactics.. skills linky

while i haven't taken a class from them it looks more like what i'm interested in and if i'm reading your post correct what your looking for.....

i cant remember where i saved a link to their site but i'll find it in a little while something to think about....... it aint in okieland though
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 4:47:05 PM EDT
www.warriormindset.com/Articles/article-ooda.htm

schedule

They also have a deal where they will come to a place to train if their are at least 10 students...and you either get 1 or 2 slots free....... anyway just thought i'd give you my opinion
after lots of research it's worth just what you payed for it
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 5:21:16 PM EDT
Yeah that is more what I am looking for in a training class. Too bad it is over in Tenn.... I don't have the time or money to do it right now, but it seems the consensus is there are no places in Central Oklahoma that offer training in line with "Tactical Response."
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:06:35 PM EDT
For $15 go out to Red Castle Gun Club on April 15th and shoot in the IDPA match and you will have fun and it will be good training for real life situations. It makes you learn how to shoot on the move, use cover, reload and shoot some more and do so quickly and accuratlely. THEN take the same elements you saw and did at the match and go do the same things on your own time with your AR. And do this regularly as in put LOTS of rounds down range in a good practical manner not just standing in the perfect stance, with perfect breathing technique and so on but get out there run around jump up and down do pushups and such to get our heart rate going and your breathing then use a stop watch and have some fun.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:18:36 PM EDT
I would really like to shoot an IDPA match. I won't be able to do it in April though. What is involved? Do you just show up with your weapon, ammo, and entry fee? Is everything explained to you, or are you expected to already know the course of fire and rules? Thanks!
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:31:42 PM EDT
You show up with your handgun 9mm or larger, 3 mags, 100 rounds of ammo, eye protection, hearing protection and $15 and your good to go. They are real nice people and they will walk you through each course of fire so that you know what to expect. Several of my friends and I did this in past years we just showed up one time and it was a blast. Some of us are planning on going to the April 15th match.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:35:39 PM EDT
That does sound like fun, and for $15 and a box of ammo, the price is right too. Do you know of any shoots coming up later in the summer?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:38:01 PM EDT
I just found their website, and it looks like they have a match every month. The only draw back is it is in Tulsa. Has anyone attended an IDPA match in central OK?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 6:50:36 PM EDT
You might want to look at the tulsa shooters website and look at the liks to other sites like tdsa, praesidium group and such. Also there is one called GZI that is pretty decent ive been told and they have a good website too.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 7:05:28 PM EDT
Contact Mike at www.thepraesidiumgroup.com/
He has great CQT classes and has a regular monthly fight club.
Full contact,force on force, using simunitions....what's not to like?
Admitedly,I haven't taken any of the carbine classes.

TDSA is a good group too.

FWIW,while IDPA will familiarize you with your equipment,it is no replacement for real self defense training.Really about the only similarities are that you are shooting a gun.
It's still a lot of fun though!
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 7:15:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gardman007:
..... but it seems the consensus is there are no places in Central Oklahoma that offer training in line with "Tactical Response."



You are correct. But as acman pointed out TR will come here if we get enough dudes together.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 7:21:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2006 7:23:51 PM EDT by Lester_Long]

Originally Posted By schutze:
Contact Mike at www.thepraesidiumgroup.com/
He has great CQT classes and has a regular monthly fight club.
Full contact,force on force, using simunitions....what's not to like?
Admitedly,I haven't taken any of the carbine classes.

Well, well. Look who's giving invitations to the Michael Brown ass-licking-dick-sucking party.

I'm sure you like getting all of that sweaty man-on-man stuff with your pal Michael-I-AM-THE-LAW-SO-SHUT-THE-FUCK-UP-Brown.

Christ, get the fucking hint. Take your Michael Brown bullshit and hit the fucking road.
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 7:31:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Josh-L:

Originally Posted By gardman007:
..... but it seems the consensus is there are no places in Central Oklahoma that offer training in line with "Tactical Response."



You are correct. But as acman pointed out TR will come here if we get enough dudes together.



I am down with that....... we just need 7 more.......
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 8:39:43 PM EDT
I'm telling you guys that most of those schools are just a place that tells you to shoot your gun like this, shoot your gun like that, and so on. You are paying them a lot of money to shoot your ammo on their range at their direction.
Close quarters training is BS unless done as a team, and done continually with the same group.
They are not going to teach you how to go up stair wells or clear buildings as an individual.
And I will say it is my opinion that the 3 gun matches are probably the best environment to learn to shoot under pressure, on the run, from cover, to forced reloads.
And getting a certificate from one of those schools in most cases is not worth the cash unless you like expensive toilet paper.
I'm only saying this because I know how and have done specialized training as an instructor, customized to a clients' needs.
I think the strict agenda that CLEET forces in their classes is good overall but is lacking in giving the instructors lattitude to adapt and change the curriculum for the students needs.
And most students that go through one of these courses will come away thinking they have learned quite a bit when in effect, they have only learned a smattering of what is needed.
Close quarters fighting is a dynamic situation and from what I have seen, the curriculums are taught in static scenarios.
When you are under fire and have no fire support, find cover or get your ass out of Dodge! How many here think they are John Wayne and can single handedly clear out a large warehouse or office building? What do you think these schools are going to teach you?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 10:48:48 PM EDT
Danc,
Tell me more about 3 gun matches. I think I read it is a shotgun, rifle, and pistol. Is that correct? Are there 2 gun matches (rifle and pistol only)?
Link Posted: 3/21/2006 11:14:02 PM EDT
Gardman, never shot one but intended to several times. I'm a little gimped up temporarily, for another year or two, but I will shoot one in the future. No course is the same, they are set up different from one match to another. You go through one leg of the match with a hangun, from cover to cover, shooting at different targets in different order. Repeated with a shotgun and rifle.
Nothing will prepare you for a real firefight in urban conditions, but this comes as close as you will find short of military training as far as I am conerned.
Distances are short, maximum I believe with a rifle is 75 yds. OKC Gun Club has them and I should have shot in one a long times ago. I just never could get anybody interested in shooting it with me. It's not so much the competition against others as it is competing against yourself. Having someone who knows you and will take the time to observe your shooting and objectively give suggestions can be a big help.
At OKC Gun Club they use the same range as the Cowboy Action Shooting. The range is pretty neat - no shooting house of course. But they have structure fronts, metal silhouettes, etc.
I'm no really that knowledgeable about the shoots - I've never seen one. But with the facilities that OKC Gun Club has a really good set up could be done with a little imagination. And I know some of the guys really delight in making things difficult to shoot the matches! Which is what really makes it interesting!
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 11:36:49 AM EDT
Gardman-I'm a USPSA shooter myself but the Firing Line in Hinton has IDPA shoots. H&H in OKC may as well. Duke does too. In Duke, they do pistol and alternate between rifle and shotgun every month-these are the USPSA matches though. My home range is outside of Duncan (SCRAP) and we only do USPSA matches. HTHs.
Link Posted: 3/22/2006 12:57:52 PM EDT
Do you prefer USPSA over IDPA? If so, for what reason(s)?
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 7:05:53 AM EDT
Easy answer for me is that USPSA is a LOT closer for me. Add to that that you put a LOT more rounds downrange at a USPSA shoot, shoot on the move, problems to solve, etc. The thing to keep in mind is that they are both GAMES, not meant as training events. I shoot Limited 10 with a Kimber custom stainless, and limited with a Para 14-45. Love those 45s. At our monthly matches we generally have 5 stages with a total round count of between 120-160. Starting at 0930 and ending by 1400.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 9:27:47 AM EDT
H&H is doing IPSC matches now on the second Sunday of every month. I think it only cost $15 and starts at 6pm.
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:05:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:
I'm telling you guys that most of those schools are just a place that tells you to shoot your gun like this, shoot your gun like that, and so on. You are paying them a lot of money to shoot your ammo on their range at their direction.
Close quarters training is BS unless done as a team, and done continually with the same group.
They are not going to teach you how to go up stair wells or clear buildings as an individual.
And I will say it is my opinion that the 3 gun matches are probably the best environment to learn to shoot under pressure, on the run, from cover, to forced reloads.
And getting a certificate from one of those schools in most cases is not worth the cash unless you like expensive toilet paper.
I'm only saying this because I know how and have done specialized training as an instructor, customized to a clients' needs.
I think the strict agenda that CLEET forces in their classes is good overall but is lacking in giving the instructors lattitude to adapt and change the curriculum for the students needs.
And most students that go through one of these courses will come away thinking they have learned quite a bit when in effect, they have only learned a smattering of what is needed.
Close quarters fighting is a dynamic situation and from what I have seen, the curriculums are taught in static scenarios.
When you are under fire and have no fire support, find cover or get your ass out of Dodge! How many here think they are John Wayne and can single handedly clear out a large warehouse or office building? What do you think these schools are going to teach you?



Dan
Did you read the thread on the school i sugested did you look at their website it's not the average "basics" instruction type of deal ......... the fact that someone was "scared" that it was dangerous tells me that they are doing something right
This ain't your basic marksmanship school........ is it worth the money it cost ?? I have no idea since i've never taken a class from them ...... but i've done a lot of reading on the subject and this school seems to try to teach gunfighting skills ...... beleive me if i go take one of their classes and i don't think it was worth the money I'll tell you
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 2:41:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:
...... but i've done a lot of reading on the subject and this school seems to try to teach gunfighting skills ...... beleive me if i go take one of their classes and i don't think it was worth the money I'll tell you


Contrary to what everyone may think, there is no such thing as "gunfighting skills". If you want a mano-a-mano fight with guns, you're going to get killed. There is offensive training and defensive training. Offensive is for military and LE, not civilians.
ACman, I just don't like schools that teach "gunfighting".
I guess I'm pretty damn jaded about the subject, my being the reincarnation of John Wesley Hardin!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:13:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By danc46:

Originally Posted By acman145acp:
...... but i've done a lot of reading on the subject and this school seems to try to teach gunfighting skills ...... beleive me if i go take one of their classes and i don't think it was worth the money I'll tell you


Contrary to what everyone may think, there is no such thing as "gunfighting skills". If you want a mano-a-mano fight with guns, you're going to get killed. There is offensive training and defensive training. Offensive is for military and LE, not civilians.
ACman, I just don't like schools that teach "gunfighting".
I guess I'm pretty damn jaded about the subject, my being the reincarnation of John Wesley Hardin!



WTF are you talking about dan .......... their are skills/techniques that can be used to help increase your odds........

I happen to have done a shitload of mout training when i was stationed at ft ord ca. and i thank my lucky stars for it every night when i go to bed......... see my kids bedrooms are at the oposite end of the house and if god forbid someone ever kicks in my door I won't be hiding in my bedroom i will be going to try to protect my kids in which case those skills/techniques would come in damn handy ......... do i want to get in a quick draw contest with someone fuck no but i want to know everything i can to help protect my family and myself.......... i have no illusions of a gunfight being romantic i've btdt it aint..... but protecting my family is something i put as a top priority....
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 3:22:00 PM EDT

Originally Posted By acman145acp:


WTF are you talking about dan .......... their are skills/techniques that can be used to help increase your odds........

....


Aw, grasshopper, you are beginning to see the truth! Skills/techniques that will help you SURVIVE the bad sh*t are worth pursuing!
Link Posted: 3/23/2006 10:06:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Josh-L:
www.tdsatulsa.com



+1 I will be taking a course from these guys when I get the chance.
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