Posted: 5/18/2013 6:12:59 PM EDT
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So I figure it might be wise to leverage the collective knowledge of the Illinois Arfcom board on a subject I'm not too well versed on.
The question: If I bought four handguns form two separate FFL dealers, should I expect a visit from the ATF? The full story: I was in the market for a BHP -- while looking on gunbroker, I discovered Cole Distributors. They had some pretty awesome deals that were difficult to pass up, and I ended up purchasing four handguns over the course of about 3 weeks (three from CDI, and one from a different dealer on gunbroker). I sent two to my FFL of choice, but encountered a bit of difficulty in scheduling. This has happened several times in the past (ie, I showed up on the date/time we agreed upon, and he was out of town), and while I like the guy a ton, it was a bit frustrating -- to the point that I felt it made sense to consider a different guy. I sent the last two purchases to a new FFL in the same area, and picked up all four on the same day. After thinking about it a little further, I have started to become concerned that this looks suspicious -- 4 handguns, sent to two different FFLS, all transferred on the same day. My question: Is this an issue I should get in front of, and contact the BATF? Should I expect them to contact me? |
| During the panic I bought 3 AR lowers. 2 were a consec serial purchase and the other was a reg purchase. Both were Gunbroker buys and I had them shipped to my FFL. I waited till all 3 were there and my FFL did em all on one trans. The way I see it,,, It's legal and I'm not trying to hide anything, no biggie IMHO... |
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Long guns are not a problem. Two or more handguns in a week is automatic reportable to the ATF and your local Police. You should be getting a visit from one or both since you were reported by two dealers in one week. They will want to see that you indeed have all four guns in you possession and not doing straw purchases.
It is possible since you received two approval numbers in one day from ISP for a hand gun that they also will check you. Unless they contacted the two dealers they will not know that you purchased four total. |
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Long guns are not a problem. Two or more handguns in a week is automatic reportable to the ATF and your local Police. You should be getting a visit from one or both since you were reported by two dealers in one week. They will want to see that you indeed have all four guns in you possession and not doing straw purchases. It is possible since you received two approval numbers in one day from ISP for a hand gun that they also will check you. Unless they contacted the two dealers they will not know that you purchased four total. Well, considering I'm a law-abiding citizen, I imagine there should not be any difficulties. I did call my FFLs to bring them up to speed, and I was able to speak with one. His take was that while there were two, multiple-handgun forms filed, that he has never heard of anyone actually receiving a visit in this type of situation. I'll keep this updated, although I'm definitely curious to hear if anyone actually knows someone who received a visit from the ATF/LEOs as a result of a multiple handgun purchase (as opposed to people who have heard through the internet that men in suits show up). Keep the replies coming! |
| I have heard of numerous visits, actually. And, from more than one person. I wouldn't worry about it, but ATF definitely does make visits for multiple transfers. Now, technically, you would be getting two separate multiple purchase forms submitted so who knows? A lot of shops will suggest spacing out your handgun purchases. |
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I have heard of numerous visits, actually. And, from more than one person. I wouldn't worry about it, but ATF definitely does make visits for multiple transfers. Now, technically, you would be getting two separate multiple purchase forms submitted so who knows? A lot of shops will suggest spacing out your handgun purchases. Were these visits in Illinois, and did you know the people personally? |
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You probably will get a visit. They will want to see if you actually purchased them for yourself. Should take about two minutes to look at the ssn to verify. They want to make sure you are not doing straw purchases.
One of my customers just got checked three weeks ago. He still had the pistols but had panned to trade one off. |
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Again you did nothing wrong, they will just want to see that you actually purchased the pistols for yourself. That makes a lot of sense -- it's funny how the thought of authority figures coming to ask questions never feels pleasant, even when you know you're in the clear. Just to confirm, I assume the best course of action is to explain: - I got a great deal on four handguns that I've wanted for a while - I intend to keep these pistols my entire life (true statement) - I'd be happy to present the unloaded/open-battery handguns to them on my front porch, so they can verify the serial numbers. |
| So when either the ATF or LEO comes to check, what papers are they required to have and what rights do we have? Can we bring our firearms to the front door to show them or are we required to let them in to our house and bring them to the firearms storage location (bedroom, etc?) |
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I doubt, especially during this time of increased sales, that anyone will be paying you a visit. It is Illinois though, and with Chicago's problems, you can never be 100% sure, so keep your receipts, etc.
It is actually quite common to "do the gun shop rounds" by collectors. Going to several gunshops on the same day even, and purchasing from at least a couple shops, if some stuff turns up, that you've been looking for. It happens all the time. If you collect used guns especially, you can go for weeks visiting shops, or looking online, and come up empty. Then all of a sudden, everything you want, in the condition you want it in, and at your price point, becomes available at once. If you just buy one handgun, and really want four, that you've seen in a couple shops, you're going to lose out on something you want. Don't worry about it. I would ask, that anyone paid a visit by some level of law enforcement, local, state, or federal, with regards to an issue like this, relay their experiences in detail here, for everyone to read. |
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I doubt, especially during this time of increased sales, that anyone will be paying you a visit. It is Illinois though, and with Chicago's problems, you can never be 100% sure, so keep your receipts, etc. It is actually quite common to "do the gun shop rounds" by collectors. Going to several gunshops on the same day even, and purchasing from at least a couple shops, if some stuff turns up, that you've been looking for. It happens all the time. If you collect used guns especially, you can go for weeks visiting shops, or looking online, and come up empty. Then all of a sudden, everything you want, in the condition you want it in, and at your price point, becomes available at once. If you just buy one handgun, and really want four, that you've seen in a couple shops, you're going to lose out on something you want. Don't worry about it. I would ask, that anyone paid a visit by some level of law enforcement, local, state, or federal, with regards to an issue like this, relay their experiences in detail here, for everyone to read. Your train of thought has definitely crossed my mind as possible. So far the crowd is split on what they believe will happen. All that being said, I will keep this post updated and let everyone know how things turn out. Speaking with my lawyer friends in passing, they tend to believe that offering up any information without being shown a warrant is a foolish idea. I struggle with that, though, because it seems that stonewalling could provoke an unnecessary legal battle, whereas simply telling them that I'll bring the four handguns down for their inspection could allow the entire situation to diffuse instantly. I'm leaning towards the latter of those two options. What says the Illinois legal lounge? |
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I have heard of numerous visits, actually. And, from more than one person. I wouldn't worry about it, but ATF definitely does make visits for multiple transfers. Now, technically, you would be getting two separate multiple purchase forms submitted so who knows? A lot of shops will suggest spacing out your handgun purchases. Were these visits in Illinois, and did you know the people personally? Yes and yes. One visit was to one of my oldest buddies. The others were to people I know but less closely. IIRC, one was a LEO. |
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I have heard of numerous visits, actually. And, from more than one person. I wouldn't worry about it, but ATF definitely does make visits for multiple transfers. Now, technically, you would be getting two separate multiple purchase forms submitted so who knows? A lot of shops will suggest spacing out your handgun purchases. Were these visits in Illinois, and did you know the people personally? Yes and yes. One visit was to one of my oldest buddies. The others were to people I know but less closely. IIRC, one was a LEO. Interesting -- so it seems there is a good possibility I'll be speaking with the BATFE soon. Given my work schedule, I tend to not be available until late in the evening -- I assume they don't call ahead? |
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My guy took the pistols to work with him. They stopped by and looked at the ssn and were on their merry way in just a few minutes.
One of my buddies had a surprise visit by two Agents a few months ago. He was shooting exploding targets with a slide fire AR15. A neighbor reported him for having a machine gun and explosives. They looked at the AR15 and the targets and said everything was legal have a nice day. |
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I have heard of numerous visits, actually. And, from more than one person. I wouldn't worry about it, but ATF definitely does make visits for multiple transfers. Now, technically, you would be getting two separate multiple purchase forms submitted so who knows? A lot of shops will suggest spacing out your handgun purchases. Were these visits in Illinois, and did you know the people personally? Yes and yes. One visit was to one of my oldest buddies. The others were to people I know but less closely. IIRC, one was a LEO. Interesting -- so it seems there is a good possibility I'll be speaking with the BATFE soon. Given my work schedule, I tend to not be available until late in the evening -- I assume they don't call ahead? It is a compliance check they will try to schedule with you unless they happen to be in the area. |
| Why worry? Unless you're doing something illegal with the guns. It is completely normal. I bought 4 pistols all in one trip because they were on sale. I never have been visited. I highly doubt they make a visit on every single person who has multiple transfers in one week or more. |
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The reporting rule is 2 or more handguns bought from the same FFL within FIVE consecutive business days (with SW border states that extends to rifles.) It doesn't matter if they call them in on seperate forms on seperate days--there has to be at least 5 business days between transfers or the form must be filled out.
The FFL has to fill out an ATF Form 3310.4 with the buyer's info and serial numbers, then send a copy to the ATF and one to the local chief LEO. So if the shop in a muni, that police chief gets it. If unicorporated, it goes to the Sheriff. They're supposed to hold onto this form for 180 days, then destroy it.......(yeah, like that is going to happen.) The big question is the definition of "consecutive business day", since some FFLs are only open on weekends. Is it the FFL's business day, or a governement/bank business day? The ATF has not defined this, so it's best to check with your FFL. Mine is open 7 days a week, so we exclude weekends and holidays. I pick up every 7 calendar days (8 if there's a holiday), to avoid that form. |