Posted: 3/1/2007 8:27:48 AM EDT
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This documents why guns, alcohol and domestic issues must be seperated in a household. One long night for me, worked 20 hours! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Brothers' fight ends in fatal shootout Chicago Tribune By Matthew Walberg March 01, 2007 My son said, `Hey Mom, what's this hole?' After a night of quarreling and drinking, two Bolingbrook brothers apparently began shooting and chasing each other around their home with two young children inside. Both ended up dead, and neighbors were left wondering what could have happened to a family described as quiet and friendly. Police received two 911 calls about 4 a.m. Wednesday, first from a neighbor reporting gunshots from a townhouse in the 500 block of Porter Drive. Seconds later, another call came from a child in the home, police said. When officers arrived, they sidled up to a front window of the residence and saw a 9-year-old girl, a 10-year-old boy and an 18-year-old man, said Police Chief Ray McGury. The officers motioned for the three to head to the front door, and when they opened it, they were rushed to safety. A middle-aged man also escaped. Police, who didn't know whether the men still were armed, waited for two hours to enter the home. At about 6 a.m., officers from the department's REACT team entered and discovered both men dead in the home in different locations, each with a handgun nearby, the chief said. McGury said it was apparent that the men, both middle-aged, suffered very serious wounds and 'were not lying there for hours bleeding.' Police and the Will County coroner's office declined to release names until all family members were notified. Although the nature of the disagreement was unclear, McGury said interviews with friends and family members helped investigators piece together a basic understanding of what happened. 'They had been drinking and fighting all night,' McGury said. 'At some point they began running around [the home] shooting at each other.' McGury said it was unknown whether the weapons were in the home or brought from another location. But with guns and quarrels 'fueled by alcohol over a period of time--you mix those two together, and you often come up with a tragedy, which is what we have here,' the police chief said. Watching from the townhouse next door was Marta Delacruz, 34. 'The police called my husband at 4 a.m. and told him to go to the basement with his family because there was a problem next door,' Delacruz said. 'It's horrible, but I looked out the window and the cops were saying to the kids [next door], `Run, run, run,' and they were pointing their guns at the windows and doors.' Police could not confirm how those in the home were related, but Delacruz and other neighbors said one of the brothers and his wife owned the townhouse, and that in the past year, other relatives had moved in. They were friendly and outgoing, to the point that when the fence between their back yards fell down last year, 'we left it down and shared the back yard,' said Delacruz's husband, Jorge, 34. 'They were such a regular family. I don't know what happened.' '[One of the men's] kids used to play with my kids all the time,' said Greg Ashford, 30, who lives around the corner from the crime scene. 'I guess you never know what goes on.' Another neighbor, Larry Wynn, 35, shook his head as he watched police mill around the home Wednesday afternoon. 'This is Bolingbrook--I thought maybe it was just a burglary,' he said. It might have been worse. At 6 a.m., police told the Delacruz family it was safe to come out of their basement. Later that morning, Marta Delacruz's young son noticed a hole in the wall on the landing leading to the second floor of their home. 'My son said, `Hey Mom, what's this hole?'' Delacruz said. 'We looked and found a bullet on the stairs.' |
Too bad you had to clean up that mess. Sad story true but be careful what you assert here. "Must be seperated"??? By who??? People are all free to fck up their lives and the lives of others. Not all chose to do it because of CONSEQUENCES. Booze helps make bad decisions no doubt. If you purport that some legal code would have saved these guys I would say they were killing themselves. one way or another. I'll hang with Patio on this. JR |
| It should be pretty clear what I meant, and that was that individuals take their own RESPONSIBLITY to conduct themselves properly. Seperated, as in, if you know you have a temper and are a drunk and are prone to violence, keep the guns locked up or out of reach. I made no statements here of laws or gun grabbing, but of personal responsibility that can not be legislated. I've been around here long enough that people know what my stance is. The sad fact is because of their actions there are now 2 widows and 5 children with no father wondering what the heck happened. Calling it "Darwin" doesn't quite take away from the human toll of the people left behind. |
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Irresponsible people don't have any responsibility. Yes it's a tragedy that there are kids with no fathers now. That is aside from the fact that these two guys, through their own actions, brought this upon themselves. That's the whole point of Darwin. Thank God they didn't involve anyone else in it, or shot it out with responding officers. I understand how you feel having to have been there. They told us there's be some things we saw that we would have to get through one way or another. Glad you are safe. See you soon buddy. |
Sorry, but it's not. It's what you said. There is no "must". In this case only "did" and "do". The "will I" is up to each of us ( like you said ). Consequences, as usual, are felt more by them with more to lose.
They did.
If you you have a temper and are a drunk you only know your will. That person cannot be counted upon to control themselves.
The "must" you mentioned can be construed as intention to force "for the greater good". (at least by me ) There is no "must". Maybe a "should" but no "must".
I submit that the sad result is 100% natural. An abberation for sure, natural none the less. The saddnes is an emotional reaction to the abscence of responsibility recognised by the observer.
The Human toll...... is the human toll. A very open ended number. It's as many as it takes to arrive at the end. Known to no one. We are all the human toll. I don't feel any better because two guys killed each other. Just glad that one of them was not me. JR |
| OK, Racecar, for future reference, you don't need to dissect my entire post word for word. I'm not looking to have every word I type be rebutted and have you add some Existentialist spin. I'll just leave the article out there (which for once in the media is fairly accurate) to speak for itself and I'll end my commentary. Now I remember why I made myself scarce around here. |
Is there anything you don't know? Here's a clue; this is why everyone in their 30's despises and resents your generation. The man obviously just went through some heavy shit at work and wanted to vent about it so he came here where he felt comfortable to do so. I am sure he didn't post it here to gain your collective wisdom. I, as we all know am very vocal about questioning the police as a whole, but you want to talk about human toll? What about the human toll that K9 has to absorb witnessing this shit day in and day out for probably around $45k per year? Shit money for people to be on their case constantly if you ask me. I question authority regurlary, as I believe it is my duty as an American. But your in-depth explanation of his post is indicitave of your clueless and out of touch generation. Get the hell of his case. It is natural selection hard at work. Yes, kids were left fatherless because their fathers were stupid unevolved human paraquat. Spare us your explanations. To anyone with a brain, this is human stupidity hard at work. When you are there, looking at two dead bodies on the floor of a house and screaming and crying kids being removed by DCFS, then and only then can you disect the situation for the world. |
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K9 I feel your pain. I haven't been to any shootings as a volunteer fireman, but I've been to plenty of fatal accidents. To people who weren't there it's just a story in the paper, but when you're there and you wash chunks of the brain of a dying teenager into the ditch as the Flight for Life helicopter won't take him because he's not viable, it's a whole different story. Most of the deaths that I have seen have been kids from 16-21. I often wonder how I survived doing all the crazy, crazy shit I did as a kid and lived and those kids didn't. Being a parent makes it harder. I have to wonder, when a kid is laying on the ground with blood pouring from his mouth from his mangled body, do this kids parents know that their son is now an organ donor and in a day or two they will give permission for the machines that will keep the body of their child alive to be turned off. It helps reinforce my religious faith. Other than the occasional suicide, none of these people woke up that morning thinking "This is my last day on earth". It helps me to know what's next. I understand the Darwin thing, two POS killed each other, society is better off, right? Well the wives and kids may not see it that way. What becomes of these fatherless children now. The fact is maybe these guys were POS, mayube not, but it was better than a single family home. Plus these kids witnessed this crap. Unfortunately, they are no laws we can write that will prevent this. We as gun owners have the final responsibility to act with prudence. But we all have the keys and combos to our gun safes. How do you seperate a gun owner from his guns when he is drunk or enraged. I do feel for cop in that they see this stuff day in and day out. They see the worst of people and deal with the dregs of society and people without morals or conscience. At best people that are pissed to be getting a ticket. Are cops perfect, no way. Am I, not even close. Anyone that thinks this only happens in trailer parks and low income areas is dead wrong. The cops in my area do have more "discretion", shall we say. But take away the money and you are still left with a drunk, enraged or suicidal asshole, they are just dressed better. Sorry to ramble, but I consider myself streetwise, but the fact is you'd be surprised how many very wealthy junkies and scumbags there are. |
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K9. My apologies. In my zeal pick at your use of the word "must" I forgot that you were the one having to wade through all that crap. Clearly a Tim moment for me. Again... I'm sorry to have unnecessarily taken your post apart. Your stance on 2nd amendment issues is clear and I was wrong to impugn it. Whoo hooo The patriot thinks I'm a boomer !!!!!!! JR |
Tim lives on! 
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Hi guys... Thanks Patriot and thank you Racecar for what you wrote. I want to make it clear, no I didn't lose sleep over this incident or it has not affected me in a bad way. The scene itself is not that tramatic, dead bodies don't bother me, etc. The bad part was after we got the children from the house, I was the one who had to interview them, get the details as to what just happened to them and then comfort them. We were not able to get in contact with other family for quite awhile, So I was with the kids for SEVEN HOURS straight until they could be reunited with family. I have no kids, and always thought I had a hard time relating to kids, now I had to help comfort, AND interview, 2 children who are now fatherless and saw their dad's dead on the ground. I feel NO sympathy for myself, etc., it is my job, I'm not the one who suffered the loss, my family is fine. But it is amazing how mentally draining empathy can be too. I was more angered by the fact that the 2 children I was dealing with were brilliant, wise beyond there years, heck, one of them showed me how to figure out the area of a circle  I was more mad by the fact of what will these kids future now be? How will this affect them in the future. Will this bring them down, or in some odd way help to inspire them. I just hope for the time I spent with them, it helped to cushion the blow just a little bit.
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My wife asks how I can go right back to sleep after a nasty call. I don't really know, I guess the fact is, like they tell you in training, you didn't cause the situation, whatever it may be. Having said that, I have not had to deal with any dead or critical young children and I hope I never do. These things are always a reminder to me how fragile human life is. Even if you live to 100, that is but a blink in history, I take comfort in knowing where I'll be spending Eternity. |
No? I thought you said you were. Sorry for accusing you of that if you aren't.
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A very close friend of mine is an LT on a large dept I will not disclose. The worst I have evr heard of is a call he had some years back where a Farmer was giving his three year old son a ride on a tractor. Kid fell off and the father ran him over (accidently) and the kid was killed. They humped a mile into the field on foot to get the kid. The next day they got a call to go back. The father shot himself in the head. |
Not sure the Darwin thing means the world is better off without them, I think the natural selection thing means the stuoid and weak have killed themselves off. Just my guess. |