[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Questions about Chicago shooting (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/7/2006 11:28:27 AM EDT
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I didn't want to hijack K9s thread so I'll start a new one. If I am hearing this story about last nights shooting at Belmont and Kilpatrick correctly (a very big if) a Chicago tactical officer is tooling around at 2:30am and two bad guys pull up to him in a pickup. He thinks there going to carjack him so he caps them both, in the pickup. This is probably bad reporting, but if it's accurate that scenario smells a little fishy to me. The two things that stand out to me are if someone is going to jack you, at least one guy has to be outside his vehicle or it just turns into a chase. Also, how do you carjack someone who has the drop on you? Back in my youth when I used to street race in Chicago, the drug dealers and bad guys we used to race were punched out from doing bad stuff at 2:30 and were just out having "fun". Anyone else know more? |
| Just read about it in the Trib. Aparently what has been left out of the media (or at least I haven't heard about it before today) was the fact that all three had been at the same bar prior to the incedent and there was some type of fight that had broken out amongst them (so says the Trib). Now I'm not saying that it wasn't a good shooting but what never ceases to amaze me is how quickly the CPD is to justify almost every shooting even questionable ones as good shootings. I just find it hard to beleive that any City of Chicago entity can be so efficient and act so quickly as the CPD does. It takes 6 months to get a building permit here but only 24 hours to clear a double killing as good? One more thing to ponder is the fact that no sobriety test was even administered to the officer in question even though he had been at a bar. |
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This off the Sun Times online -- Off-duty cop claims self-defense in killings April 8, 2006 BY FRANK MAIN AND MARK J. KONKOL Staff Reporters An off-duty Chicago Police officer who fatally shot two men early Friday had intervened in an earlier bar argument involving at least one of them, sources said. Edward P. Yerke, a 36-year-old Albany Park District tactical officer, killed Kenneth Elrod, 31, of the 5400 block of West Waveland and Demetri Centera, 31, of the 4700 block of North Kenneth, authorities said. Yerke stepped in to break up an altercation involving Elrod at Magic Touch Club, 5728 W. Belmont. Elrod told Yerke he would "be back" and went to pick up Centera, police sources said. About 2:30 a.m., they pulled up to Yerke's 2003 Hummer at a stoplight at Belmont and Kilpatrick and allegedly pointed guns at Yerke. They may have been seeking payback for the earlier incident, sources said. Yerke, a seven-year veteran, told investigators he shot the men because he feared for his life. Investigators found he followed state and department guidelines for the use of deadly force, police said. Police: 2 had extensive records Officers recovered a .38-caliber revolver and a .25-caliber semi-automatic pistol from the white Ford pickup truck in which Elrod and Centera were shot, police spokeswoman Monique Bond said. Police also found extra ammunition on Elrod, sources said. No one else was in either of the vehicles involved in the shootings, police said. Elrod and Centera were believed to be members of the Latin Eagles street gang, police said. They had extensive criminal records, she said. Elrod and Centera were plumbers, according to their families and friends. Elrod had served at least two stints in prison on burglary and drug convictions in the 1990s in DuPage and Cook counties, court records show. "The family is pretty devastated," said a sister-in-law, Linda Morales. "He drank at bars, but that does not make him a criminal." Elrod's gang affiliation was in the past, Morales said. "Since he got married to my sister four years ago, he has been dedicated to the family. He's been a completely different man, hard-working. He loved his job and gave everything possible to his kids. He even told his wife not to work anymore to be with the kids," Morales said. Elrod had a 4-month-old son and a 2-year-old daughter, Morales said. "He was so happy with his son. He told me he was going to teach him to be a plumber. To go to college and be a plumber like his dad," Morales said. She said her brother-in-law and Centera were friends. The white pickup truck belonged to Elrod, she said. Centera had been arrested at least 26 times for everything from felony marijuana possession to disorderly conduct and trespassing, records show. Still, Annis Abid, a neighbor of Centera, said he could not believe Centera would pull a gun on someone. "We'd sit out in the summers and barbecue and drink beer," said Abid, adding that he knew Centera about four years. "It's crazy, man. I'd never expect anything like this. Shooting. Killing. He wasn't like that." [email protected] [email protected] |
24 hours? Heck, it happened at 2:30am and I heard CPD had proclaimed it was a good shoot driving to work at 6:00am! Fast work for a city that still doesn't know what caused a fire that killed 6 people 3years ago in a goverment building. Here's the way I think. The scumbags, I know they weren't boy scouts, run into this guy after the altercation. He draws down on them and caps 'em. Throws his drop gun on one guy and borrows a second from the first uniform on the scene. If I'm the scumbag driving and draw on someone I know is a cop (earlier altercation, no doubt he badges 'em) cop cap's my buddy, I cap him or better yet I pull away. Good shooting by the way, because bad-guys pickup was to the left of cop's Hummer. If I'm the passenger and the guy cap my driver I don't miss someone a foot away from arm's reach. Wanna bet there are no .25 or .38 holes in the Hummer? Fact is, he walks, end of story. I know some Chicago cops. Don't mess with them on their home turf. You will lose! |
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If this had been a private citizen who felt threatened for his life, there would have been an overwhelming hue and cry over how he took "the law in his own hands" and was the "judge, jury, and executioner." Of course because this "tactical" officer was the only one "profeshunal enuf" to carry and put the bad guys down, that won't happen. BTW, handyandy, I highly doubt .25s are common police officer backup guns. |
I think he said "drop", not "backup" gun. |
My thoughts exactly. |
| If you seriously think we carry "DROP GUNS" you are out of your mind. I find the whole concept insulting and repulsive, what line of work are you in? would you knowingly and willingly do anything job related that would get you fired and put in prison? I think not, nor would we. |
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I am willing to give the cop the benefit of the doubt on this one even though I know if it was me in the same situation, I would not recieve that same. As for cops and 25acp, I know of at least one At a shop that I am a regular, there was a female officer from the Chicago PD who was seeking a 25ACP Taurus clone of the Beretta Bobcat for use as a bug. |
Prison sure beats hell. |
You may not carry a drop gun, but it was a standard practice for decades, especially in Chicago. If this offends you I'm sorry, but it is true and I have years of family experience to back this up. Cops every single day break the law and take advantage of their position. |
I'm not sure why it matters, but I'm in the refrigeration business. And yes, I have in the past done things that could have resulted in being fired or busted. I am a completely different man from those days and I thank the Lord for that! Are you a Chicago cop? If you are, maybe you can answer some of the questions in this thread. I am not making my comments up, it comes from CPD officers themselves. Maybe since they are close to retirement they are old school and new guys are as pure as the wind driven snow, but I doubt it. Obviously, there are differences between CPD and most suburban LEOs. When was the last time a cop you know got busted on a DUI or a domestic violence beef? Yet, statistics prove that cops have at least the same probability as Joe Sixpack to have alcohol or domestic issues, but they never get caught? I am not a cop-hater, quite the contrary. They have a crappy job dealing with the scum of the earth day in, day out. It's impossible not to become jaded. But the fact is that there huge numbers of applicants for each and every LEO job, why is that? There must be somer allure to the job. ETA: Do I think that every CPD officer carries an illegal drop gun, no. I would be interested if we could find out exactly what the policy on back up guns is, something like a CPD SOP. Most CPD shootings are good. I even think that the two famous cases (I forget the names) about 5 years ago with the football player and girl that ended up getting shot after chases were good shootings and the city should not have paid out on those. If you are dumb enough to run from the cops and then make a stupid move, like reaching into a purse for a cell phone when you get caught you deserve to be shot. |
Well on top of that, this officer was in the cage unit (do not ask me how I know that). On top that, her partner (also from the cage unit) did not know who makes the 870. |
Actually there are a number of cops that get busted for DUI's and domestic beefs now-a-days. The face of Chicago law enforcement is changing where accountability is paramount. In this day and age of near instantaneous information dissemination as well as far reaching media coverage, news stories that paint a bad image of cops are getting out more. As a result, "bosses" are less likely to risk their jobs to cover for someone that was clearly in the wrong. |
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Although I definately will give the off-duty policeman the benefit of the doubt here, I will wait for the final information about the whole incident before giving him a "pat on the back". I shudder to think what would have happened though, if a non-law enforcement person, even with a completely clean criminal record, was able to try to defend their life. BTW, how does someone get arrested twenty-six times? This guy had to have been a pretty bad dude, and although most of his juvenile record, (where some of his arrests are likely listed), will never be known by the public, somehow I don't think society is going to miss him much. And how does a seven year officer afford a Hummer? I guess he could have saved well, bought used, financed it, inherited well, or had a very lucrative previous job. I guess Chicago law enforcement must pay well. |
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I don't quite understand the prison beats hell responce but for the rest of it, yes quite a few cops get busted for DUI and domestics, being accused of domestic violence is about the worst thing for an officer . I know we aren't all angels and thoes that do bad things should lose their job and go to jail. The Feds look at all police involved shootings,does that make you feel any better.Most of the anti-police threds I have read involve firearms/right to carry. I suggest you look towards your politicians to change things and if you don't like the politicians stand on a given topic, vote them out. For the record I am a life member in the NRA, a member of the ISRA, and I am for concealled carry in Illinois and that includes Chicago. I am no democrat. I konw it's an impossibility to vote out the rats at city hall, but I also know that it's the ASA that presses charges or not. That being said, if you are justified in defending yourself, then you are justified,sure you may stand trial and face a civil suite but thats what you chose to do. I will only tell you to follow the law. I work in one of the worst districts in the city,the west side, and I work with the best police anywhere.NO ONE carries a drop gun. We walk a very fine line,and it's our ass if we fall off that line. I am offended by that drop gun remark. As for the guy having a hummer,so what if he does,he is the one paying for it. |
| I'm sure in reality the "drop gun" might exist in maybe 1/100 of 1% of P.O.'s , but taking some flak for it goes with the territory kind of like the Dunkin Doughnut stereotype. TV and the Movies have planted the drop gun in everyones heads. BTW I'm not a P.O. and I have to admit that I love Dunkins coffee. |
| I can take the Dunkin Doughnuts joke, thats not a problem,I happen to like dunkin doughnuts esp. the coffee, and I get most of the jokes when I'm in line to get coffee,I usually reply with "you're in line too chubby" and we both laugh. Now I'm going to let this go because I am upset about it and I don't like to let things get to me. |
CR#, remember, we use drop KNIVES now, guns have become too expensive (sarcasm off). Also, as far as it comes to making some members here (I won't name names) see 'the light', well, let's just say they have a matching pair of tinfoil glasses to go with their tinfoil hat and tinfoil sport coat 
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You know, I had so much more respect for you before you came back from your vacation from ARFCOM and started acting the fool every time you posted. Not sure what's up with you but I wish you'd quit it. (I act like a fool every time I post, but that's just me, and I don't expect any level of respect. I'm a postal employee afterall...) |
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I was reluctant to start this thread because I figured it would get sidetracked, as it has. I started it because I had questions about a shooting involving an off duty tactical officer at 2:30 in the morning that declared good by 6:00am. This from the city that still can't figure out who hired Angelo Torres. I'm not upset that the cop killed two scumbags. I'm upset about the double standard. If I did the same thing I'd be at 26th & California and Dick Divine would have a bail that I couldn't cover. I'll say this much, perhaps I am generalizing more than I should from the older CPD guys I know. But they are still pretty tight lipped around me and just the stuff they do tell me surprises even me at times. While I respect and support cops, but I'm not niave either. I've been on the receiving end of "breaks" many times, but I have also gotten screwed twice (and I'm not talking about being mad about a traffic ticket). I'll bow out of this thread now since it's not only hasn't answered my questions but just turned into a food fight. |
Andy, you and I both know an ex Chicago Cop that has some pretty interesting stories to tell. A gentleman that worked with the Illinois Guard during the 68 Convention. My Dad worked with FFL's, Chicago PD and the USN for years, very interesting stories. Although Cops are under much tighter restraints these days, I grew up in a town where suspects still "fell down the stairs" while being questioned. There are a couple Cops here, and I won't mention names that are young and inexperienced and without a doubt beyond question. I agree that if you or I pulled the trigger, we'd be in jail. With Police brutality or corruption comes the development of ghettos. When people don't trust Police (which is often) they don't call them. Until further info, I will give the Cop the benefit of the doubt. But guess what I just heard? Cops are using Tasers in a High School now, I believe in Colorado. Sickening. If they can't control teenagers with pepper spray, handcuffs or their fists, they should go back to working hospital security. The arrogance of law enforcement sometimes is disgusting. I know plenty of cops. Some are cool, some are short little men with a God complex. It takes all kinds. |
Hmm, interesting choice of words. Care to explain "acting a fool" or would you rather just use it as a general catchall statement to describe someone that doesn't always see 'eye to eye' with you. My last post didn't use names, nor was your name one of the people I had in mind, but you obviously felt a need to seek me out and directly insult me. So if me giving my OPINION and that OPINION does not have the same amount of weight or validity in your eyes, then yes, I guess I will be acting "a fool" in your eyes then.
 gimme a break! So you could control some 6'04' 275 lb. football player by himself if he decided to go haywire? I guess you would prefer the Police to beat him, instead of using something more humane like a Taser.In brief, I see 2 things going to have to happen here. Either hot button topics like this don't need to be discussed (which won't happen because we should be able to discuss them), or some people need to stop jumping on posters backs that are Police Officers. I am here number 1 cause I am a shooter, No. 2, my profession happens to be one that people have questions and opinions about. I can't speak for everyone here that is a Cop, but if everytime we post here, there are a handfull of posters that want to keep on confronting us, and our answers are "never right" in their eyes, then I think more of us will be going on "vacation" cause I post here for entertainment. Remember, very ofter, the Police Officers here are respecting the other posters opinions and not turning it personal. Then what happens is the 95% of posters here that have legit question for the Police, well, they won't be able to get them answered because we aren't here anymore. Well, that doesn't really seem to matter because it would appear that some here want to disregard our experience and resort to bashing. I sure hope some things here get straightened out, and fast, cause I know I'm not getting paid to have to keep on going around in circles with these arguments. When at Buffalo I'll still give a smile and say hello, but the days of me discussing anything Political here is coming to an end. |
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Yeah, well, those same people that rely on police officers for legal advice are fools anyway. There is a reason that most departments require an associate's degree to be a police officer and all lawyers have a doctorate level education. That is just one more example of the attitude that turns the public against police officers. I have really tried to give many officers on this board the benefit of the doubt, especially those of you that I have met personally like you and NPD. Unfortunately, this same attitude comes out every time, as if you're talking down to us because you wear a badge and carry a gun on a daily basis, and it really is a shame. NPD and the rest of us have these little scuffles, but personally, I think he has a much more mature attitude towards the critics than you're displaying. That's why I said you're acting the fool. Like everyone always tells me, "It's not what you say, it's how you say it." I think that this CPD officer was involved in a good shoot. IMO, felon in possession is enough for me to know that these two idiots were up to no good, and he's lucky he survived this scenario with two of them and one of him, without getting hurt himself. Political? Now matters of life and death are political? |
This I thought was interesting
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Amen! I think that is why we all are (and should be) here.
It's a shame when people can't recognize the difference between a personal opinion that could have come from anyone, and a policy line opinion from a police officer. Being a police officer is just a job, guys. To K9 and the other LEO's here: I for one appreciate your respective contributions to this Board and your unique perspective. P.S.: I don't know what it is, but the ability to take a joke on the IL HTF seems to have gone by the wayside over the past few weeks/months. Everybody is taking everybody else's words far too seriously. |
 It has been without a doubt less fun here depending on the topic. As soon as some people will toss a joke out there, especially if you are a Cop, you are then regarded as being equal to Hitler's SS. Since I have returned, the only posts I have had was the Officer involved shooting I was a part of and this. How it is that some people want to think I am starting trouble is beyond me. What I have found funny lately is when a discussion revolves around a Police incident, a Police Officer will give his OPINION, and then some people want to attack that persons position. I don't get it. Being a cop or a lawyer is a very easy profession for someone to rip on, but most people know next to nothing of what really occurs with that profession.I say everyone should lay their cards down on the table and everyone say what their profession is IF they want to rip on Police, etc. I'm sure I could come up with problems with medical professionals, mechanics, people in the trades, etc. BUT, WHAT IS THE POINT. Why the need to tear some people down for expressing an opinion? If some people here can't get along, and we are all suppossed to be on the 'same team', then what are the chances of a positive message getting out to the public that might be against some of what we are saying. I have shown respect, I haven't called people out by name, at times I have made 'tongue in cheek' remarks to shows a difference of opinion, but I have never been disrespectful or so crapped on someone or their profession. A little tolerance goes a long way. |
 But I isn't 'dat kinda smart tho! Lawyers only get a "JD" after law school. Although technically it's a "Juris Doctorate," it's not really a "doctorate" in the Ph.D. sense of the word. Ph.D.'s are, IIRC, 8 years after college. Law school's only 4 years. I'm just semi-intelligent. So says that paper on the wall anyway. |
. . . . . . . . . . OK, now call me an immature dumb cop, I'll retort with how you let baby killers go, then you can make fun of my mom, then someone else will jump in and call us all wrong   BTW, sorry to HandyAndy it has degenerated to this. Can't believe Cody hasn't locked this yet, must be cause he is drunk on moonshine, dumb hick... . . . Now Cody will give me a warning, I will tell Cody he is violating my 1st Amen., he will tell me it doesn't apply, I will call him a Facist......... (YES, this was ALL A JOKE) |
Actually when my mother worked for the ABA, this subject was brought up. It is actually not inappropriate for a lawyer to refer to themselves as "Doctor" and according to the ABA (and the law book my mom edited on this subject) JD = PhD.
Not true at all. I would fight to the death for your right to say whatever you want. Never have I stated that you SHOULDN'T be able to express yourself. I simply stated that I do not care for the tone that you have used when doing so. Like I said, it's not what you say, it's how you say it. I am glad that cody allows us to express ourselves here. I would just prefer not to see the kind of tone you're using. It doesn't solve anything. It doesn't even make for good discussion. It just incites a riot that gets the post shut down, which ends the debate completely. You're just confusing my beliefs of liberty with common sense. I really don't care at all that you express yourself. I just wish you'd do it in a more civil manner, like you did in the past when we have had many discussions both on here and in real life. I like everyone here, and I'd imagine you do too. The blastfest in November you were at was great...we all go to talk and even had a little competition shooting action. This isn't personal at all. In fact, I distinctly remember you offering for me to shoot your carbine back in October, and your wife taking a few pictures of me when I asked her to. |
I prefer to be called Southernly challenged.  I have no intention of locking this thrad until the thread starter asks me too, or until it gets out of hand. I believe a lot of good things have been said in this thread. The COP BASHING needs to stop. Cops don't make the laws, they are paid to enforce them. It's that simple. The idea that someone that isn't a cop would go to jail for shooting two people that flashed a gun on them while at a stop light is a stupid argument. IT IS ILLEGAL TO CARRY A LOADED FIREARM IN THE STATE OF ILLINOIS, so you would have broken the law. The cops didn't make that law. POLITIANS did. Like K9 said, if you don't like a law, get it changed or change the politician. A police officers job doesn't end when the shift is over. How many cops do you think have had people recognize them from past arrests? While some of you feel there is no need for Police officers in this world, the rest of the world understands that police are neccesary. Police officers are putting their lives at risk everyday. If you don't believe that I invite you to springfield on May 4th, for the Police officers memorial ceremony. I personally know 3 people on that wall, 3 officers that gave their lives doing their jobs to protect the people Illinois. Now, as for the other side of the argument here. Everyone knows, including the cops, that there are bad eggs in some departments. I challenge anyone to show me a job that doesn't have crooks. There are more crooked Federal Employees(i.e. Postal workers, politicians) than you can shake a stick at. The same goes for carpenters, lawyers, mechanics, doctors, ect. For someone, including a cop, to be offended by the notion of a "drop gun" is ridiculous. Drop guns have been around for decades, and I know for a fact that some officers do still have them. Again, that leads to the bad cops. The other subject was the amount of time to decide if it was a "good" shoot or not. 3 hours isn't a long time, but when you have 2 convicted felons with 2 guns in the car, which are probably right out in the open if they flashed the officer, then even a Assistant state's attorney 6 weeks out of law school is going to rule it justified. SO GET OVER IT. And just from me, I haven't seen any attitude change from k9 on the board. He speaks with a lot more tact than some people here do. perhaps some other people should take his example and take a break from here for awhile. Let their heads clear and their tempers settle, then come back and join us. |
Sorry for the hijack, but I was under the impression, perhaps mistaken, that a Taser was supposed to be a substitute for deadly force, and not an everyday option. Is this incorrect? |
A taser is a less than lethal weapon. It's used to prevent the individual from causing harm to him/herself and/or others. Tasers as well as OC spray are used as a means of making a non-compliant person compliant. Obviously it's a substitute for deadly force. If a non-armed person is refusing to get on his knees, or submit to being handcuffed, your not going to shoot them with a firearm, and if the individual is irrational and possibly violent, you want to keep your distance while making him comply with orders. Tasers give you that option. You can remain 15-20 ft away and still inflict the neccessary force to make him/her comply. Of course thats just my understanding. (NPD got in while I was editting.  )
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Yes, that's incorrect. Most departments that deploy them list them prior to hard empty hand tactics on the use of force continuum. They would be used before punching, kicking, pepper spray or batons. They are THAT effective. Studies show they are insanely effective at controlling "out of control" or resistive suspects, and is a "NON LETHAL WEAPON" (in spite of what critics would have you believe). Read up on it here: TASER Hot Topics TASER Product Warnings - Citizen and LEO models |
Absolutely not. There is no substitute for lethal force when it is warranted. |
Lighten up Frances. |
I guess I just think we are living in frightening times if the Police have to Taser teenagers. |
Taser - Deadly Rhetoric (41 page PDF) More info. People who know and use these things, and have seen them evolve from the basic "stun gun" to the current technology, are the ones who are best suited to speak on them. A veteran CA sheriff's deputy who has been very involved with training, has said that the Taser (current model) is the most effective control tool that has ever entered the Use of Force arena. So effective that his officers are carrying a firearm, a taser and handcuffs. No pepper sprays or batons. The potential for injury is exponential when placing hands on a resistive subject - injuries either to officers, suspects or bystanders. The taser literally wipes that possibility off the board. Do you understand what they actually do? As for your statement about living in frightening times... Imagine how many parents out there feel that it is frightening to spank children. If there were less of them, we might not be relying so heavily on defensive weapons to arrest somebody - we'd just tell them they're under arrest, and they'd comply.  |
My statement about a drop knife and 'tinfoil clothing' was a comment made to a member who is a cop, think it was pretty obvious I was interjecting levity. Guess most people don't know the way coppers talk to each other. But I guess some people here would view that as our "elitist and ignorant" way. BTW, we are TYPING here, to me this is not "real" conversation, so to say its not what you say, but how you say it, sorry I don't get it  CODY, your statements I think were excellent BTW, very much to the point  |
When I was a teenager I cannot think of one single instance where it would have been necessary to Taser a kid. Times have changed, kids have changed. But so have Cops. |
Dude.... RELAX. You don't need to cut and paste and then respond to every comment I make. People have opinions other than yours and people (most people) have different opinions than your fellow Police Officers. That's part of life. I have no beef with you, but it sure seems like you have one with me. |