Posted: 2/26/2007 6:00:04 PM EDT
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Anyone have one? I'm already starting to think about what my next build will be after I finish the one I'm currently working on . Just wondering what's required to have a shorty Legally. Thanks in advance....... Rich |
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Standard (permanently attached flash hider) barrel to = 16". Plain or A1 upper should be beyond sufficient with the short barrel, unless you want optics (then a flattop may be more to your liking). Suggest Bush 11.5" with permanently attached 4.5" hider, or their 11.5 equivicable (whatever they produce). V OUT |
| Question -what if you wanted to purchase a 11.5 upper from say Bushmaster, you have it shipped to your local dealer -do you have to register the upper? Do you havre to have a lower to go with it before you can leave the store with it? I understand its 10 years if I have a short bbl upper anywhere near a lower -that's what I do not understand -batfe has the lower marked, what about the upper? |
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When I built my AR pistol, some of the vendors said they wanted NFA paperwork before they would sell a short upper. it was right after the expiration of the AWB, so they probably have had enough folks buying them for pistol uppers, it's not likely to be an issue. One way to do it, buy a stripped lower receiver, have it registered at the dealer on the 4473 as a pistol lower. Then buy the upper/kit that you want, minus a stock (your pistol kit will include some kind of buffer tube assembly). If you choose to add a stock later, it's a simple matter of filling out the ATF paperowrok and paying the $200 tax stamp. I would say that if you are not willing to make it an SBR (short barreled rifle), don't waste your time with anything shorter than 16". You would be giving up precious velocity ,which in 5.56 equates to fragmentation, which is what gives it it's "stopping power". Good luck! |
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I built an XM-177 clone on a Rock River Lower. Used an M16 slickside upper, M16A1 straight pistol grip, metal Colt CAR Stock w Bursting Bomb Buttpad, I went with an Oly Arms Heavy Chrome-lined 16" bbl, a Bushy slip over 5.5" flash suppressor and Fat M4 handguards...I thought they gave it a better look with the heavy bbl. It's a lightweight accurate carbine that has the historic look. Only thing is the rock river lower is black, upper is grayish. I want to have it refinished, but not sure which color I prefer. Anyone know someone in Norhtern Nevada who can help me out? |
Mike, Might try Houts Enterprises out in Dayton http://www.houtsenterprises.net/index.html They've got Duracoat's finishes and kits. |
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I believe there is no option on marking, it must be your lower. As for an SBR - Remember, you are 99% stuck with it forever due to no market value (anyone can make one) except for cut guns like the SP89 stretch. Even then it is a cement block when it goes to selling it. V OUT |
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Get a quality lower and a 14.5" upper and have a flash suppressor permanently attached. That will give you the legal 16" platform with no BATFE intervention. Plus, the reliability and accuracy will remain. More often than not I have talked to guys that own shorty SBR's and it is my understanding that reliability and accuracy goes out the window when you start messing with short barrel length. JMO |
it's only $200. small change in the gun world when BUIS cost $175 for the pair. I went with a 9mm SBR, the balistics are better than a SBR 5.56. not greater, just better IMO |
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ARES Defense has a piston retrofit kit for normal ARs, which *seems to* help with sub-10" guns. Check out the thread here: ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=124&t=310274 And NO, this doesn't appear to be vaporware, as Denny's is selling 'em: www.globaltactical.com/axami/shop.php?grd=377 |
The last couple of times we have gone shooting there have been a few 10", 11.5" and even a 7" M16 and they all functioned flawlessly. I have always read on internet/magazines that they are less than reliable but the ones that I hav used have been nothing but great  thanks Ron |
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Well the voices in my head are asking if owning an SBR (or anything you need ATF approval for) puts you on any kind of list(s) that would make it easier for them to visit and confiscate when the anti-gun legislation/presidential directives start flowing. I hope I never see that in my life but I'm a realist so I think it's entirely possible....especially after what just happened with the Katrina fiasco. On the other hand..........I'm thinking that since I already have a CCW they'd be coming to my house anyway. The "cool factor" on the SBRs are appealing to me and since I already have another "rifle" lower It'd make more sense to go that route vs. an AR-pistol. I'm confused on the engraving deal though. The guy I had been doing my transfers through has a couple of legal Uzi's and I don't recall seeing engraving on them. decisions decisions |
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As for the above post, if you shorty a rifle like the AR, you can list multiple calibers and be just fine. So, your shorty 9 can be a shorty 223. Some argue the caliber listing isn't required for each one, but there is room! All because you own a registered weapon, the Constitution still applies. |
| If you don't want to engrave your lower, as mentioned previously, purchase a complete SBR from a dealer. You can preorder 6933s (11.5" Colt SBR) from Clydes Armory. Specialized Armament (S.A.W.) has several SBR Colts for sale. With S.A.W., you have the option of Ken Elmore's expertise in increasing your SBR's function with his reliability package. |
Not when you consider the coming awb. Anything pre-ban will jump in value.
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H.R. 1022. This is on the AR15.com home page. "H.R. 1022 would also ban the importation of magazines exempted by the Clinton ban, ban the sale of a legally-owned "assault weapon" with a magazine of over 10 rounds capacity, and begin backdoor registration of guns, by requiring private sales of banned guns, frames, receivers and parts to be conducted through licensed dealers. Finally, whereas the Clinton Gun Ban was imposed for a 10-year trial period, H.R. 1022 would be a permanent ban." |
I guess it's possible if the dems take the wh and retain the senate and house. Not going to happen though. |
Gawd do I hope you're right. I'm afraid the idiots in this country will vote for Hillary/Obama and then not "wake up" and realize what they've done until the next congressional elections. By then a HELL of a lot of damage will have been done. |
Not true...... since a transfer tax is the same as the registration for putting it on the registry, all you have to do is slap a longer barrel on it and remove it from the registry. If anything, you could say you just wasted $200 bucks, but at least you had fun with the toy!! You are right about there being no value increase, but the AWB being pusjed by some states includes SBRs. So, a pre-ban in that state could be worth more $$. |
It IS true, if you leave it registered as stated above. Look around on the internet for them "for sale". They are dogs if you are trying to sell them. Why would anyone want to buy one if they can do it themselves...that is all. Joe had the best answer with the Permanent hider installed. I added the bilocks instead of phantoms on my AR's so I can use the Gemtech M496D on all of them. V OUT |
One other commonly seen example of required info that is frequently placed on the barrel is importers' markings. Having said that, I had my name and city engraved on the receiver. 
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HAHAHA You funny man. Ever try to do that? LMAO Remove an NFA weapon from the registry... It takes a lot more than you might think. I had a type 10 FFL for years, and spent plenty of time @ 650 Massachusetts Ave. as well. The ammount of effort involved in removing something from the registry would be reserved for a very rare weapon - not a cheap lower. If you want an SBR, do it on a form 1. Mark the LOWER - it is the registered part. When you are done playing with it, strip it, cut it up, and take the pieces & form 1 to the local ATF office and THAT will remove it from the registry. Lem |
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As pointed out earlier, only the lower is registered / transferred and is the NFA item with a SBR. In fact I don't know that "registered" is the correct term. The BATFE / owner / SOT / class III FFL process is for a "transfer" of the NFA item, is there any registering? Semantics. You can do whatever you want with the upper. It is not registered. It is not an NFA item. Afaik, you don't have to change out the short bbl either, but sell it as is. No FFL required. No NFA transfer involved. So you are really attached at the hip to the "lower". You can remove it from being an NFA item, and as Lem pointed out this may be a bit of an endeavor. The NFA lower is restricted to: -- out of state travel, you have to get ATF approval, let them know -- the bbl length and OAL listed on the form 1 or 4 -- other restrictions as stated by NFA law The NFA lower is not restricted to: -- swapping the short bbl for a 16" or 20" legal upper -- swapping the short bbl for a different or new bbl of the same form 1 or form 4 listed bbl length / OAL Of course, swapping out for a legal bbl length will not take away the NFA status of the lower. |
This is true for a given SBR upper and a given lower. There are now dedicated SBR builds such as the Mk 18 10.5" SBR and several Colt SBRs that have specific missions and in some cases barrel mods, gas system mods, bolt group mods, and upgraded buffer assemblies, to address reliability issues. Specifically, the Specialized Armament "SP" (special purpose) SBRs come with Ken Elmore's reliability package and all of those modifications included. edit: content |
Don't worry about reliability with the "fun gun" concept. The modifications are easy to do and are also part upgrades (H2/3 buffers, etc). You should enjoy the shorty as is. Do not worry about reliability issues because you can accept a stoppage here and there. It is not like your life will rely on it as a "fun gun". With the mods and parts, they just need to be replaced more often with the higher rate of wear on the gas system. The main wear exists at the gas tube area, chamber and barrel below the front site (where the gas enters). These are the areas that need opened/mods. This is precisely why the shorty models are not proliferated throughout the military, but are with LE. Key is ENJOY your TOY!  V OUT |
That is an interesting concept, a gun purchase specifically for fun, not having to worry about reliability. Imho, and ymmv, every firearm you own could be brought into service pdq, defending your home, your family, your country. The only fun gun I have purchased so far with that definition would be a Browning Buck Mark .22LR. But then again I plan on suppressing it, so it moves out of that category quickly, so reliability comes into play again with magazine selection, ammo selection, and maintenance. |
Well, if you are a human being living in America and need to shoot someone, do it with something like a handgun with Glaser safety slugs, if you have to go to court... I am not here to argue any points, except that if you build a MMJ Hot rod to run on a straight quarter mile (fun vehicle) and win races - You'd be an ass to compete it against a 2000 Dodge 4X4 PU to run a long haul off road in a comparison competition. The SBR is just that - A Fun Gun. It is a neat thing to have if you run around the desert in your Blackhawk vest and Airsoft helmet. But you are doing just that, "running around the desert in poser gear". If you buy a SBR to defend America, you are a fool. Buy what we use on the front line to do just that, if that is what you decide to do. Remember; the civie HMMWV is far different than the AM General military version. I'd hate to be the dipshit who "defends" his house with a lawfully owned fully reliable or not M240 machinegun. To get back on track with the SBR, buy what you want, for what you want and enjoy it. V OUT |
You got all of that from a couple of posts. Myself, I don't like to assume. Oh, and on the glaser "slugs", page 5 para 2: Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, FirearmsTactical.com Above link referrenced here: Recomended Duty/Self-Defense Service Pistol Loads, Tactical Forums Terminal Effects board, DocGKR post |
Nope, coincidence, those articles mean nothing to me. I have lived it. I have been in the military over 18 years, deployed all over the world, one of four people who indocrinated the M4 into Air Force SF service, have shamefully touched more firearms and other associated weapons than women in my lifetime. I have been involved in shootings and moreover have had someone who died in front of me (shot in the chest with a single round of ball 124gr issued 9mm). I am also one who does not believe 50% of waht I read. Even after actions reports (I've writen enough to know they are not always accurate). I and others on this board can verify my past experiences that justice is not always served in the courtroom. I can tell you to defend yourself in court "over a shooting" for instance, is better with $155,000 lawyer, associated support personnel with their fees, and use of "Safety Slugs" than without them. The court appointed defender of course, we surely can agree will not be an option. Defense costs money. Now back to the shorty issue; If you decide to get/make one, I'd go with what Joe stated to go around the fee and red tape. Outside of the cost and inability to get real XM177E2 parts, I'd like to build another as well. Either way I can ensure I can make the weapon work for you. I/We all have the same tools and more experience that are on/at the workbenches at Hartford (Colt), Columbia (FN) and Trussevile (HK). Rich807 let us know and see what you eventually all put together. Once it gets done, get in line for one of Joe's Rifle classes. They are worth it. If it is a kit gun you are putting together and having issues, just yell. I'll offer my help to anyone who desires it. Thanks V OUT |
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Where can I find that flash hider you said you use with your Gemtechs? I'd rather stay with a 14.5 inch barrel with a perm attached flash hider as long as it can work with a can. If I order a lower parts kit can you install it for me in my wifes stripped lower for me? |
Same here brother, for a # of reasons. If nothing else I rationalize the “working for 50%” deal.
Will do. I’m still working on putting together a 24” bull setup, after that I’ll figure out if/how I want to do a true shorty version or go with a legal/no-hassle sized one. |
Sorry to hear you had trouble in the past........ I just had that done for a gun I was buying...... the time frame was less than 3 weeks. So, times have changed. And I wasn't even trying to be funny 
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Good info, thanks RDP. So the owner of the NFA lower sent in the form (# ?) to BATFE to remove it from NFA status, and then he sold it to you? You get a copy (maybe original) of the signed form, correct? |