Posted: 1/27/2014 2:28:57 PM EDT
| Do I need to get the lower stamped or the upper? Yes a suppressor will be added on at a later date. I thought the lower had to be stamped but then I heard you could stamp the upper and use it with any lower. |
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Do I need to get the lower stamped or the upper? Yes a suppressor will be added on at a later date. I thought the lower had to be stamped but then I heard you could stamp the upper and use it with any lower. When you file a form 1 application to make an NFA firearm you are acting as a manufacturer and all manufacturing laws apply now to you as an individual (there are only exceptions for title 1 firearms). As a manufacturer your are required to mark every firearm with the name you are doing business under, city and state, model number, caliber, and serial number. If you are making an existing title 1 firearm into a title 2 firearm you are permitted to use the existing model number, caliber, and serial number, but you must mark it with the name you are doing business under and city and state. The markings are required on the controlled part (lower receiver). I am not aware nor have I ever heard of an exception allowing marking of the upper receiver, unless for that specific firearm the upper receiver is the controlled part (like the PPSH41 I just did). On a side note, I think you have one of my lowers. If I build the rifle for you there are no additional marking required (as it is already marked with my marks of ID and I am manufacturing the SBR). I simply file a form 2, then file a form 4 to you. If you're transferring to a trust I can file electronically and I'm hearing current waits are 90-100 days. |
| Incorrect - you are a MAKER, not a MANUFACTURER, when you file a Form 1. That is why the reuse of the manufacturer's markings are permitted, with the addition of your markings as the maker of a Title II firearm. Call it semantics but it is a distinction. Technically you could mark a barrel or upper receiver for an AR-15, but since the manufacturer's marks from the lower are listed on the Form 1, you would need it to stay mated to that lower regardless, so you might as well mark the lower and then be able to swap any upper onto it. |
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As an 07/02 manufacturer I do the same thing. I've machined a couple lowers into MGs and am permitted to reuse the serial #, model # and caliber mark. All I have to do is add my company name and city, state.
I don't know that ATF distinguishes between "maker" and "manufacturer". As you said semantics, it all boils down to anyone sending in a Form 1 HAS to put their name city and state on the firearm assuming it has already has a serial #, model #, and caliber mark (if not you have to add those as well) Quoted:
Incorrect - you are a MAKER, not a MANUFACTURER, when you file a Form 1. That is why the reuse of the manufacturer's markings are permitted, with the addition of your markings as the maker of a Title II firearm. Call it semantics but it is a distinction. Technically you could mark a barrel or upper receiver for an AR-15, but since the manufacturer's marks from the lower are listed on the Form 1, you would need it to stay mated to that lower regardless, so you might as well mark the lower and then be able to swap any upper onto it. |
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Rick I got a chance to have this conversation with an agent today (compliance check). I was wrong the ATF DOES actually distinguish between a "maker" and a "manufacturer". However, it is simply semantics as you said since the marking regulations state apply equally to a manufacturer or maker. Apparently the difference is the license. If you have a manufacturers FFL you are a manufacturer, if you don't you are a maker. But the regulations are applied equally across the board.
"The serial number must be engraved or stamped on the receiver of the firearm and the caliber, model, and identification of the maker must be engraved on the barrel or frame or receiver of the weapon.96 The marking and identification requirements for a maker are the same as for a manufacturer. Refer to section 7.4 for a detailed discussion of the requirements." "7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. 7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime. 7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes:" Quoted:
As an 07/02 manufacturer I do the same thing. I've machined a couple lowers into MGs and am permitted to reuse the serial #, model # and caliber mark. All I have to do is add my company name and city, state. I don't know that ATF distinguishes between "maker" and "manufacturer". As you said semantics, it all boils down to anyone sending in a Form 1 HAS to put their name city and state on the firearm assuming it has already has a serial #, model #, and caliber mark (if not you have to add those as well) Quoted:
As an 07/02 manufacturer I do the same thing. I've machined a couple lowers into MGs and am permitted to reuse the serial #, model # and caliber mark. All I have to do is add my company name and city, state. I don't know that ATF distinguishes between "maker" and "manufacturer". As you said semantics, it all boils down to anyone sending in a Form 1 HAS to put their name city and state on the firearm assuming it has already has a serial #, model #, and caliber mark (if not you have to add those as well) Quoted:
Incorrect - you are a MAKER, not a MANUFACTURER, when you file a Form 1. That is why the reuse of the manufacturer's markings are permitted, with the addition of your markings as the maker of a Title II firearm. Call it semantics but it is a distinction. Technically you could mark a barrel or upper receiver for an AR-15, but since the manufacturer's marks from the lower are listed on the Form 1, you would need it to stay mated to that lower regardless, so you might as well mark the lower and then be able to swap any upper onto it. |
| Yeah - the difference is the FFL; if I'm not mistaken there is a different form than the Form 1 to file for the manufacture of a Title II weapon, versus the Form 1 is tax-paid making of a Title II firearm. I was under the impression that a manufacture is tax-free (don't know what form), whereas making was tax-paid (Form 1). |
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Yes it it is untaxed. I file Form 2's
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Yeah - the difference is the FFL; if I'm not mistaken there is a different form than the Form 1 to file for the manufacture of a Title II weapon, versus the Form 1 is tax-paid making of a Title II firearm. I was under the impression that a manufacture is tax-free (don't know what form), whereas making was tax-paid (Form 1). |
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Yes it it is untaxed. I file Form 2's Quoted:
Yes it it is untaxed. I file Form 2's Quoted:
Yeah - the difference is the FFL; if I'm not mistaken there is a different form than the Form 1 to file for the manufacture of a Title II weapon, versus the Form 1 is tax-paid making of a Title II firearm. I was under the impression that a manufacture is tax-free (don't know what form), whereas making was tax-paid (Form 1). Anyone local do engravings? |
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Anyone local do engravings? Quoted:
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Yes it it is untaxed. I file Form 2's Quoted:
Yeah - the difference is the FFL; if I'm not mistaken there is a different form than the Form 1 to file for the manufacture of a Title II weapon, versus the Form 1 is tax-paid making of a Title II firearm. I was under the impression that a manufacture is tax-free (don't know what form), whereas making was tax-paid (Form 1). Anyone local do engravings? Working on it. Soon |
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Working on it. Soon Quoted:
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Yes it it is untaxed. I file Form 2's Quoted:
Yeah - the difference is the FFL; if I'm not mistaken there is a different form than the Form 1 to file for the manufacture of a Title II weapon, versus the Form 1 is tax-paid making of a Title II firearm. I was under the impression that a manufacture is tax-free (don't know what form), whereas making was tax-paid (Form 1). Anyone local do engravings? Working on it. Soon Lovely! I'll have a couple of lowers to do and a six pack for who ever is responsible for getting it set up 
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OK, I sent a message to Devon via FB but I'll ask here as well..
once I get the trust, I have the forms set up for the lower to get stamped, wait the time, get the stamp, have the lower engraved,.... then I can put any upper that I want regardless of calibur or length correct? So I could build a 7.62 SBR upper and a 5.56 SBR upper and interchange them to the lower. |
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I tried to find the information to link here but I've had my head buried in so many NFA regulation books and ruling lately I can't remember where it is. Maybe it will help to think of this from the point of view of a gunsmith or manufacturer, since with NFA firearms you are basically treated as one. A gunsmith or manufacturer must record in their A&D book anytime a firearms characteristics are changed, like caliber. With an NFA firearm one of the recorded characteristics is also barrel length. So it would stand to reason that you need to record such a change somewhere. This is what I was looking for and can't find right now, The ATF does not "require" that you notify them of a change in barrel length or caliber of an SBR. However, they strongly recommend you send a letter to the NFA branch explaining any additional configurations of the SBR. For instance, I built a 14.5" barrel SBR for myself. Recently I decided to sell the 14.5" upper and build a 10.5" 300BLK upper for it. I also plan to build an 11.5" 556 upper for it. The SBR is registered as a 14.5" 556 barrel with approx 36" OAL. I would send the NFA branch a letter stating that there are two additional configurations of this SBR, one being 10.5" barrel 300BLK with 32" OAL, and one with 11.5" barrel 556 with 33" OAL. Even though the 14.5" upper is gone I still always have the option of putting one back on it. Anything over 16" is fair game, you don't need to notify them.
ATF SBR FAQ Quoted:
OK, I sent a message to Devon via FB but I'll ask here as well.. once I get the trust, I have the forms set up for the lower to get stamped, wait the time, get the stamp, have the lower engraved,.... then I can put any upper that I want regardless of calibur or length correct? So I could build a 7.62 SBR upper and a 5.56 SBR upper and interchange them to the lower. |
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Ident took their sweet time with mine - quoted a few weeks and that turned into almost two months. How long ago was this? I just sent a lower to Ident and they received it on the 14th. At that time, they were quoting a 3 week turn around so I should know in about a week whether that is accurate. I previously sent them one about 8 months ago and they still had a 3 week turn around, but I received it back in 9 days. I wonder if the "3 week" thing is just a standard response? |
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Anyone got a recent turnaround time from Orion? I just packed my Draco off to Ident, and I'm kind of thinking Orion might be swamped too with the rush of people out to beat the 41p CLEO/trust rules. What is recent to you? I received my lower from Orion on Tuesday 
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How long ago was this? I just sent a lower to Ident and they received it on the 14th. At that time, they were quoting a 3 week turn around so I should know in about a week whether that is accurate. I previously sent them one about 8 months ago and they still had a 3 week turn around, but I received it back in 9 days. I wonder if the "3 week" thing is just a standard response? Quoted:
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Ident took their sweet time with mine - quoted a few weeks and that turned into almost two months. How long ago was this? I just sent a lower to Ident and they received it on the 14th. At that time, they were quoting a 3 week turn around so I should know in about a week whether that is accurate. I previously sent them one about 8 months ago and they still had a 3 week turn around, but I received it back in 9 days. I wonder if the "3 week" thing is just a standard response? Late spring of 2013. Stamp didn't come back until September IIRC so no big deal from that perspective, but I was without a quality lower for a lot longer than I had anticipated. Very good quality work, but slow for me. YMMV. |