[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Lockpick legality in WI? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 10/18/2013 1:36:09 PM EDT
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Came across this topic in GD, first I'd heard of it:
Locksport Could our resident locksmith comment on the legality of this in WI, or rather, possession of lockpicks? many, MANY years ago, when computer shows were still around, I picked up this software set on "how to pick locks" that came with a floppy disk and some lock picks. The software never even installed. :( I think I still have the picks, somewhere. not sure. I thought it would have been an interesting thing to learn, and still do. |
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Note: I'm not a locksmith or a lawyer. But a while back I saw some posts, videos, etc., all about locksport and thought it looked like it could be fun. I'm also from WI and wondered what the laws were here. From what I recall, possession of lockpicks is cool so long as there is no criminal intent.
At the bottom of the first post in the thread you linked, there is a link "ETA: For those wondering about the legal issues by state". According to that link, in WI lockpicks are "legal: must show intent" which is exactly what I remember. If you search for lockpick legality by state, you'll find other sources that indicate it's legal in WI to own them as long as you're not doing anything criminal. Here's from Wisconsin Statutes and Codes, 943.12 "Possession of burglarious tools.": "943.12 Possession of burglarious tools. Whoever has in personal possession any device or instrumentality intended, designed or adapted for use in breaking into any depository designed for the safekeeping of any valuables or into any building or room, with intent to use such device or instrumentality to break into a depository, building or room, and to steal therefrom, is guilty of a Class I felony." - See more at: http://statutes.laws.com/wisconsin/943/943.12#sthash.lnWyHQRr.dpuf |
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I have this. It's a great starter. |
I've got lots of them.  To be honest, I haven't a clue as to what the laws in WI are, as I've been a professional locksmith for 27 yrs and they are the "tools of my trade", and if I can't have them, then nobody can.  I never worried about having them before, still don't. I carry my bonding ID card (which proclaims me to be a "certified professional locksmith" yada yada yada) in my wallet, along with some business cards.
In 27 years, I've had ONE "incident" with LE. It was in ILL, at a courthouse with metal detectors at the entrances. A circuit court judge had locked his keys in a locking fireproof file cabinet. He needed in there, ASAP. One of his office staff was a friend of mine, and she suggested I get called. I did, I was there in 20 minutes, and a noob mall-ninja gung-ho bailiff had a fucking stroke when I put my set of lock picks in the tray before going though the metal detector. He was actually reaching for his handcuffs to "detain" me for possession of "burglary tools". What an asshole... when I put the picks in there I told him WHY I was there, showed him my locksmith ID, and WHO I was supposed to help. He didn't listen, went ballistic, and finally a supervisor came over and defused everything simply by calling the judge's chambers.  They then made the asshole-new-guy-bailiff "escort" me ASAP right to the file cabinet that needed opening... there were files needed for a court hearing and everyone was waiting on ME! When the judge asked what was up with the escort, I told him "Barney Fife over there wouldn't let me in".  "Barney" got a reaming out from the judge.
And FWIW, picking locks isn't as easy as it looks. You're taking advantage of loose tolerances in wafer tumbler locks (very easy to pick), and on pin-tumbler locks, very slight misalignment of the pin tumbler chambers in the key cylinder. Lock brands such as Kwikset & Weiser, and most "home center imports", have key cylinders made of "pot metal" and aren't very precise in their manufacture... thus fairly easy to pick. Better made key cylinders (Schlage for example) are more precisely machined from solid brass, and harder to pick. These are usually found in higher dollar commercial grade locks. The configuration of a key (and the corresponding tumblers) in a pin tumbler lock can have something to do with how hard it is to pick also. A very deep cut (longer tumbler) next to a very high cut (shorter tumbler), then another deep cut on the same key, can make it harder to pick, even on the easy Kwiksets etc. So can the size and shape of the keyhole (smaller = harder, as there's less room to work). Also, most locks that are part of a master-keyed system (motels, schools, courthouses, office buildings etc) are much easier to pick than the same lock if it wasn't master-keyed. That's because master-keying adds tumblers to the lock, and for every additional tumbler there's an additional "shear line"... and shear lines are what you take advantage of when picking. The more there are, the easier it is to find & compromise one, and you need only compromise one per tumbler chamber to be successful. My advice to anyone who wants to give it a try, first get a book or do some inter-netting to see how differant types of locks work, and why they can or cannot be picked. If you don't know how / why they work, you will not fully comprehend exactly what you're trying to do with the pick, and it'll be much harder to master. What really "amuses" me, is internet braggards who claim to pick "this kind or that kind of lock... in seconds".  BULLSHIT!!! Sure they might get lucky here & there and run across an easy one that's picked in seconds... but to claim to do it effortlessly and with consistancy is a fucking urban myth or fairy tale. If picking manually (the typical handheld pick) you're doing one tumbler at a time. It's a physical impossibility to compromise 5 tumblers , or 6, in "seconds".
Not the same thing with the "bump keys", which allegedly work better than picking (in limited circumstances, they DO work easily). They work (when they do) on the same principle as a pick "gun", and an electric powered pick-gun (looks like a power screwdriver) will bury bump keys in a consistancy test (it'll "bump" 500 times per minute... it's a "full-auto" of lockpicks vs the bump-key "single-shot" ). In theory, they both compromise all tumblers simultaneously, and "when" they work, that's how they work. If bump keys worked as claimed, I'd throw all my picks away. I've tried them... they don't work as good as a manual pick gun, not even close to an electric. They only work good enough to even bother with on locks whose keys are very similar cuts adjacant to one another (similar length tumblers).
On Schlage for example, with a #3 cut next to a #9 cut, #2 next to #8, #1 next to a #7, etc, a bump key is like tits on a bull. I have the luxury to able to key a lock how I want it for testing opening methods, and anytime I had one keyed with similar size tumblers (34546 for example) it could be bumped, fairly easily. If I keyed one to something like 39827 or 28282, it could not be bumped no matter how hard I tried. That's because a bump key drives all tumblers upwards simultaneously, with an equal amount of force. The size disparity in the lengths of a #3 (.210") and a #9 (.300") means you cannot have both reach the shear line (absolutely necessary for picking) at approx the same time. In locksmithing, a differance of .090" is HUGE! edited to correct /add some info on bump keys 2nd edit: there is no licensing of locksmiths in WI. Not so in all States. About 15 (last I checked) required locksmiths to be State licensed. IL is one, PA, NY, CA, MA are some of the others. In most States that have such licensing, only licensees can possess any tool like lock picks, designed to compromise locking devices of any kind... AFAIK. |
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You need to post that in the locksport thread above! On GD? No thanks. That's where I've seen most of the bullshitters bragging, as there's been multiple threads over the years in GD about lock-picking. (Same thing on other forums, such as Glocktalk). One asshole claimed he could pick Medeco high security locks (as close to pick-fucking-proof as can be had)... with paperclips.    I read GD (with amusement, and sometimes disgust) but I try to avoid sticking my nose in, over in the GD zoo.
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Quoted: On GD? No thanks. That's where I've seen most of the bullshitters bragging, as there's been multiple threads over the years in GD about lock-picking. (Same thing on other forums, such as Glocktalk). One asshole claimed he could pick Medeco high security locks (as close to pick-fucking-proof as can be had)... with paperclips. I read GD (with amusement, and sometimes disgust) but I try to avoid sticking my nose in, over in the GD zoo.Quoted: Quoted: You need to post that in the locksport thread above! On GD? No thanks. That's where I've seen most of the bullshitters bragging, as there's been multiple threads over the years in GD about lock-picking. (Same thing on other forums, such as Glocktalk). One asshole claimed he could pick Medeco high security locks (as close to pick-fucking-proof as can be had)... with paperclips. I read GD (with amusement, and sometimes disgust) but I try to avoid sticking my nose in, over in the GD zoo.Picking a medico with paperclips is laughable. Form an openlocksport Defcon conference from a guy who figured out how to pick the pre ~2008 style medecos. After he figured it out he got them to fix the design to thwart his attack. The medico part starts at 45:15: ETA: fixed  |
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I regularly practice my lock picking skills. I believe it's an essential skill to have.
The picks I highly recommend are Bogota picks. With these picks, I can defeat any masterlock padlock in under 20 seconds (usually 5 seconds). Most household locks including deadbolts, etc.... are picked well under 60 seconds. I've tested most brands. 5 and 6 pin locks with the bogotas are easy. The only padlock I have ran into so far that gives me trouble is the American Lock military-style padlocks. However, I have a special tool for those padlocks that makes those pickable in 2 seconds. I recently picked up a tool that defeats tubular locks in a matter of 30-45 seconds as well. Works very well. Tried it on many tubular locks and hasn't failed yet. It's a fun sport and a good skill to have in my opinion. I carry an entry bag in my truck that has picks, bump keys, jigglers, glass breaker, wire cutter, bolt cutter, etc... can get into almost anything if I had to! David |
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Picking a medico with paperclips is laughable. Form an openlocksport Defcon conference from a guy who figured out how to pick the pre ~2008 style medecos. After he figured it out he got them to fix the design to thwart his attack. The medico part starts at 45:15: ETA: fixed  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ7EwTRHaJA&feature=share&list=PL37F740CA59C4724F
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You need to post that in the locksport thread above! On GD? No thanks. That's where I've seen most of the bullshitters bragging, as there's been multiple threads over the years in GD about lock-picking. (Same thing on other forums, such as Glocktalk). One asshole claimed he could pick Medeco high security locks (as close to pick-fucking-proof as can be had)... with paperclips. I read GD (with amusement, and sometimes disgust) but I try to avoid sticking my nose in, over in the GD zoo.Picking a medico with paperclips is laughable. Form an openlocksport Defcon conference from a guy who figured out how to pick the pre ~2008 style medecos. After he figured it out he got them to fix the design to thwart his attack. The medico part starts at 45:15: ETA: fixed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ7EwTRHaJA&feature=share&list=PL37F740CA59C4724F
I've seen Medeco locks picked in under 3 minutes. Not as secure as you think. Harder than most, but still pickable. |
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I have a set of the Bogota lock picks and can highly recommend them. My first time trying them out after watching a few youtube videos and I was able to get into 40-50% of locks that I try.
I'm sure if I practice more that number will improve even more. However, at my current skill level, its not a reliable way of entry into ALL locks. It really depends on the lock. On all my padlocks there are some I know I can unlock after 10 seconds and some I know will take me at least 5 minutes. Some wont open at all. Thats why I highly suggest practicing. I wish I had more time 
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Quoted:
Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking. 
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep".  I've done it repeatedly. The majority of masterlock padlocks can be picked in seconds with my bogota picks. The longest one I ran into took 3 minutes and it was because it was frozen and I had to work the pins free and ruined a set of picks doing it. If you're ever in the Appleton area let me know. I'll be happy to give you a one-on-one demonstration. ETA: I don't give a shit what you're thinking... I've picked and seen masterlock padlocks picked in seconds, repeatedly. One of the easiest to pick. In fact, if you use a Quick Stick, you can open them even faster. |
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I have a set of the Bogota lock picks and can highly recommend them. My first time trying them out after watching a few youtube videos and I was able to get into 40-50% of locks that I try. I'm sure if I practice more that number will improve even more. However, at my current skill level, its not a reliable way of entry into ALL locks. It really depends on the lock. On all my padlocks there are some I know I can unlock after 10 seconds and some I know will take me at least 5 minutes. Some wont open at all. Thats why I highly suggest practicing. I wish I had more time Bogota picks are awesome. The biggest tip I can give you is to use LESS pressure on the tensioner when picking. I have a tendency to strong arm it (even when I think im not). It requires very little pressure to get the pins to lock. They're awesome picks. |
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Here is a video using a Quick Stick, this will open a lot of the masterlock padlocks in seconds.
Here is an example of the tubular lock pick I use... works very well, I haven't found a tubular I cant open with it yet!
Here is a video showing the bogota picks being used and how easy it is to get into 5 and 6 pin tumblers with them. Haven't found a household lock I cant pick yet!
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Quoted:
Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I say take him up on his offer and you might also be able to see him shoot an oxygen tank with his Mosin at 1000yards. 
Every lock is different; sometimes, you try the same lock ten times in a row and your times are all over the place. It's taken me anywhere from ten seconds to thirty minutes to get back into my house after getting locked out, and I know those locks very well. I am a bit of a hack, and generally just use different rakes depending on the brand of lock. If I had only one, it would be the standard rake; it's also a very easy shape to make out of paperclips. Fun regardless... |
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On all my padlocks there are some I know I can unlock after 10 seconds and some I know will take me at least 5 minutes. Some wont open at all. Thats why I highly suggest practicing. I wish I had more time The hard to pick are likely those which have key cuts and corresponding tumbler lengths with a huge variation to the adjoining ones. Those keyed where the key cuts are all nearly identical (or within a few steps of the adjoining cuts) are the easy ones to pick. As I said in an earlier post, the way a lock is keyed up can have a huge effect on how easy or difficult it is to pick... as can the degree to which the tumbler chambers are drilled/machined in a straight line. A simple Kwikset can be intentionally keyed to make it much harder to pick, but will create a difficult to operate key in the process, because of the steep and longer slope in the key cuts. Kwikset uses 6 depths of key cuts (a 7th in some master key systems). #1 cut is the full blank width or no cut (there is a very short tumbler for this size... .195" in length), a #6 cut is very deep, down to the groove in the key, and uses a very long tumbler (.285"). If a Kwikset is keyed up to a code of 6-6-1-6-1, if you pick a #6 tumbler before you pick the #1 behind it, the #6 (which becomes rigid when picked) blocks easy access to the #1 immediately behind it.... and this happens twice in this code, as there's two 1s right behind two 6s. But you will have no idea of what sizes the tumblers are, nor where they're situated, until you start the picking process and use some trial & error on the pins in a random manor. That's why it takes more than "seconds". 
However, one keyed 1-2-3-4-5 would be simple to pick because no pin is longer or shorter than one depth from the pins on either side, and much less trial & error is involved, no pin blocks access to any others, and these CAN be sometimes picked in under a minute, or "seconds".... but they are rare codings, thus rare locks. FWIW... if I wanted to prove how fast I could pick a lock, I'd key it up to all #1 cuts, regardless of brands (even Medeco, on which I'd use all pins for "center cut" which wouldn't require rotation to left or right). Impossible to determine it's "rigged" for easy picking without disassembly and decoding, but incredibly easy to pick. Any lock keyed to all the same depths would be incredibly easy to pick, such as all #2s, all #4s, etc. Not only Kwikset, but all brands. And if you KNOW they're keyed this way, 5 seconds would be a loooong time to pick them. A paperclip would actually work better than a lock pick on these, as with a straight shaft, all you need is slight turning pressure and lift all tumblers together at once, until all shear lines are reached simultaneously. To the unknowing, it's just a normal lock and looks secure, as with no matching key or pick inserted, it will not turn. What do you think magicians use?  Ask me how I know, just might be because I've sold them with these special codes, per request.
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I've done it repeatedly. The majority of masterlock padlocks can be picked in seconds with my bogota picks. The longest one I ran into took 3 minutes and it was because it was frozen and I had to work the pins free and ruined a set of picks doing it. If you're ever in the Appleton area let me know. I'll be happy to give you a one-on-one demonstration. ETA: I don't give a shit what you're thinking... I've picked and seen masterlock padlocks picked in seconds, repeatedly. One of the easiest to pick. In fact, if you use a Quick Stick, you can open them even faster. Quoted:
Quoted:
Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I've done it repeatedly. The majority of masterlock padlocks can be picked in seconds with my bogota picks. The longest one I ran into took 3 minutes and it was because it was frozen and I had to work the pins free and ruined a set of picks doing it. If you're ever in the Appleton area let me know. I'll be happy to give you a one-on-one demonstration. ETA: I don't give a shit what you're thinking... I've picked and seen masterlock padlocks picked in seconds, repeatedly. One of the easiest to pick. In fact, if you use a Quick Stick, you can open them even faster. Well in that case, I'll tell you what I am thinking, as long as you don't care.....  
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I say take him up on his offer and you might also be able to see him shoot an oxygen tank with his Mosin at 1000yards.
Every lock is different; sometimes, you try the same lock ten times in a row and your times are all over the place. It's taken me anywhere from ten seconds to thirty minutes to get back into my house after getting locked out, and I know those locks very well. I am a bit of a hack, and generally just use different rakes depending on the brand of lock. If I had only one, it would be the standard rake; it's also a very easy shape to make out of paperclips. Fun regardless... Quoted:
Quoted:
Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I say take him up on his offer and you might also be able to see him shoot an oxygen tank with his Mosin at 1000yards.
Every lock is different; sometimes, you try the same lock ten times in a row and your times are all over the place. It's taken me anywhere from ten seconds to thirty minutes to get back into my house after getting locked out, and I know those locks very well. I am a bit of a hack, and generally just use different rakes depending on the brand of lock. If I had only one, it would be the standard rake; it's also a very easy shape to make out of paperclips. Fun regardless... Absolutely the truth. Sometimes it's just luck that gets the pins to hang up in proper order to be picked. Rake picks are very effective on wafer tumbler locks and pin tumbler locks coded to keys with similar depths of cuts. If a key has a deep before shallow cut, you CANNOT reach those shallow cuts with a rake IF the deep cut tumblers pick first. You have no control over which will pick first. That's determined purely randomly by misallignment of chambers in the individual lock itself. Pin tumbler locks are best picked one tumbler at a time with a "feeler" pick, and if I had only one, this would be it.... or with a pick gun.
eta: before today, I've never heard of those "bogota" picks, never seen them advertised nor spoken of in neither of the monthly locksmith magazines I subscribe to. I've used these since I got my 1st set in the late 1970s. Also have these, two of these, and one of these
If those fail to open a lock in 10 minutes, time is money, I use this.... guarenteed to open it in 30 seconds or less.
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Quoted:
I say take him up on his offer and you might also be able to see him shoot an oxygen tank with his Mosin at 1000yards.
Every lock is different; sometimes, you try the same lock ten times in a row and your times are all over the place. It's taken me anywhere from ten seconds to thirty minutes to get back into my house after getting locked out, and I know those locks very well. I am a bit of a hack, and generally just use different rakes depending on the brand of lock. If I had only one, it would be the standard rake; it's also a very easy shape to make out of paperclips. Fun regardless... Quoted:
Quoted:
Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I say take him up on his offer and you might also be able to see him shoot an oxygen tank with his Mosin at 1000yards.
Every lock is different; sometimes, you try the same lock ten times in a row and your times are all over the place. It's taken me anywhere from ten seconds to thirty minutes to get back into my house after getting locked out, and I know those locks very well. I am a bit of a hack, and generally just use different rakes depending on the brand of lock. If I had only one, it would be the standard rake; it's also a very easy shape to make out of paperclips. Fun regardless... What kind of lock on your house? Schlage? Kwikset? |
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Well in that case, I'll tell you what I am thinking, as long as you don't care..... Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I've done it repeatedly. The majority of masterlock padlocks can be picked in seconds with my bogota picks. The longest one I ran into took 3 minutes and it was because it was frozen and I had to work the pins free and ruined a set of picks doing it. If you're ever in the Appleton area let me know. I'll be happy to give you a one-on-one demonstration. ETA: I don't give a shit what you're thinking... I've picked and seen masterlock padlocks picked in seconds, repeatedly. One of the easiest to pick. In fact, if you use a Quick Stick, you can open them even faster. Well in that case, I'll tell you what I am thinking, as long as you don't care..... Hey, we're all entitled to our own opinions.... |
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Absolutely the truth. Sometimes it's just luck that gets the pins to hang up in proper order to be picked. Rake picks are very effective on wafer tumbler locks and pin tumbler locks coded to keys with similar depths of cuts. If a key has a deep before shallow cut, you CANNOT reach those shallow cuts with a rake IF the deep cut tumblers pick first. You have no control over which will pick first. That's determined purely randomly by misallignment of chambers in the individual lock itself. Pin tumbler locks are best picked one tumbler at a time with a "feeler" pick, and if I had only one, this would be it.... or with a pick gun.
eta: before today, I've never heard of those "bogota" picks, never seen them advertised nor spoken of in neither of the monthly locksmith magazines I subscribe to. I've used these since I got my 1st set in the late 1970s. Also have these, two of these, and one of these
If those fail to open a lock in 10 minutes, time is money, I use this.... guarenteed to open it in 30 seconds or less. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I say take him up on his offer and you might also be able to see him shoot an oxygen tank with his Mosin at 1000yards.
Every lock is different; sometimes, you try the same lock ten times in a row and your times are all over the place. It's taken me anywhere from ten seconds to thirty minutes to get back into my house after getting locked out, and I know those locks very well. I am a bit of a hack, and generally just use different rakes depending on the brand of lock. If I had only one, it would be the standard rake; it's also a very easy shape to make out of paperclips. Fun regardless... Absolutely the truth. Sometimes it's just luck that gets the pins to hang up in proper order to be picked. Rake picks are very effective on wafer tumbler locks and pin tumbler locks coded to keys with similar depths of cuts. If a key has a deep before shallow cut, you CANNOT reach those shallow cuts with a rake IF the deep cut tumblers pick first. You have no control over which will pick first. That's determined purely randomly by misallignment of chambers in the individual lock itself. Pin tumbler locks are best picked one tumbler at a time with a "feeler" pick, and if I had only one, this would be it.... or with a pick gun.
eta: before today, I've never heard of those "bogota" picks, never seen them advertised nor spoken of in neither of the monthly locksmith magazines I subscribe to. I've used these since I got my 1st set in the late 1970s. Also have these, two of these, and one of these
If those fail to open a lock in 10 minutes, time is money, I use this.... guarenteed to open it in 30 seconds or less. Bogota picks are advertised at LockCon, DefCon, ITSTactical, SerePick.com, etc. They're very popular in the tactical world for covert entry. ITSTactical.com sells them and has some good videos on them. They're not the end all be all, some locks or jobs require different applications/tools but the bogotas are awesome for padlocks, household locks, etc. They're not advertised in trade magazines because they're sold via a few distributors. All picks are hand-made and hand-polished. $40 for a set? Give them a shot, I know you'll like them. |
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Bogota picks are advertised at LockCon, DefCon, ITSTactical, SerePick.com, etc. They're very popular in the tactical world for covert entry. ITSTactical.com sells them and has some good videos on them. They're not the end all be all, some locks or jobs require different applications/tools but the bogotas are awesome for padlocks, household locks, etc. They're not advertised in trade magazines because they're sold via a few distributors. All picks are hand-made and hand-polished. $40 for a set? Give them a shot, I know you'll like them. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I say take him up on his offer and you might also be able to see him shoot an oxygen tank with his Mosin at 1000yards.
Every lock is different; sometimes, you try the same lock ten times in a row and your times are all over the place. It's taken me anywhere from ten seconds to thirty minutes to get back into my house after getting locked out, and I know those locks very well. I am a bit of a hack, and generally just use different rakes depending on the brand of lock. If I had only one, it would be the standard rake; it's also a very easy shape to make out of paperclips. Fun regardless... Absolutely the truth. Sometimes it's just luck that gets the pins to hang up in proper order to be picked. Rake picks are very effective on wafer tumbler locks and pin tumbler locks coded to keys with similar depths of cuts. If a key has a deep before shallow cut, you CANNOT reach those shallow cuts with a rake IF the deep cut tumblers pick first. You have no control over which will pick first. That's determined purely randomly by misallignment of chambers in the individual lock itself. Pin tumbler locks are best picked one tumbler at a time with a "feeler" pick, and if I had only one, this would be it.... or with a pick gun.
eta: before today, I've never heard of those "bogota" picks, never seen them advertised nor spoken of in neither of the monthly locksmith magazines I subscribe to. I've used these since I got my 1st set in the late 1970s. Also have these, two of these, and one of these
If those fail to open a lock in 10 minutes, time is money, I use this.... guarenteed to open it in 30 seconds or less. Bogota picks are advertised at LockCon, DefCon, ITSTactical, SerePick.com, etc. They're very popular in the tactical world for covert entry. ITSTactical.com sells them and has some good videos on them. They're not the end all be all, some locks or jobs require different applications/tools but the bogotas are awesome for padlocks, household locks, etc. They're not advertised in trade magazines because they're sold via a few distributors. All picks are hand-made and hand-polished. $40 for a set? Give them a shot, I know you'll like them. At $40 per set, they'd better be good. Don't know how many in a "set", but I've looked at a few websites (thru googling) and saw some for $33 per pair. The HPCs I've been using for almost 3 decades cost me about $2ea, and although I've got dozens, there's only 3 types I use regularly. A rake for single sided wafer locks, a single ball (double-sided ) for double-sided keyed wafer locks, and a feeler for pins. I've probably got 6 of each... there's a set in both my trucks and wife's car, one I carry in a pocket, and another at each of my two workbenches at home. One pick gun and an electric pick in my work truck, another pick-gun at my workbench in my home shop. For the Master padlocks... on all laminated body padlocks, the locking bar(s) are springloaded, rather than held in place by a rigid-when-locked ball bearing. "Shim" picks will pop open those shackles in seconds... but it's not "picking" the tumblers, it's shimming down the shackle to move back the locking bar. I once opened one of those Masters on a cigarette machine in a bar (on a bet my buddy made with the bar owner) with a shim I made (with a pocket knife) from a beer can. Same thing with the tools for Master & American that go through the cylinders and by-pass the tumblers altogether. That's not "lock picking", that's by-passing lock picking (like using a slim-jim on a car instead of picking a door lock). Those have been around for years, handmade by each user from an old pick, and it's only recently that they've been made commercially. I made my 1st one in 1989. The most commonly used type of file cabinet lock (push to lock type) can be opened in seconds also, similar method, with a modified lock pick. But again, that's not lock-picking, it's a by-pass method. You know why those by-pass tools & methods are used? Because not all locks are easy to pick, even by pros. They may not look it, but each and every key cylinder, in every type of pin tumbler lock imaginable, is as "unique" as a fingerprint. Some are easy, some a little more difficult, some very hard, some not possible in a practical sense. What I mean by that is, as a locksmith, I charge $60 per hour for my services. I'm not going to take 20 minutes or more to pick a hard to open $8 padlock that's locked onto something that won't allow me enough room to shim the shackle. A cordless rotary tool (like a Dremel) with a cut off wheel goes right through the hardest shackles in seconds. Time is money. BTW.... WTF is "tactical covert entry"? Sounds highly illegal to me, unless your a CIA agent or something... or in the movies. I've known dozens of LEOs...got them in the family, shoot & hunt with some, all the way from local-yokels up to WI State Troopers, FBI, and U.S. Marshalls. NONE of them pick locks... they get warrants and call someone like me who does it for a living. In 27 yrs in the business, I've opened both locks & safes for DEA, IRS, U.S. Marshalls, county Sheriff Depts, local PDs, and even the WI DNR. Every single time was with a search warrant. I haven't opened a house under a foreclosure warrant with the Sheriff in almost 2 weeks now.
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Hey, we're all entitled to our own opinions.... Quoted:
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Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I've done it repeatedly. The majority of masterlock padlocks can be picked in seconds with my bogota picks. The longest one I ran into took 3 minutes and it was because it was frozen and I had to work the pins free and ruined a set of picks doing it. If you're ever in the Appleton area let me know. I'll be happy to give you a one-on-one demonstration. ETA: I don't give a shit what you're thinking... I've picked and seen masterlock padlocks picked in seconds, repeatedly. One of the easiest to pick. In fact, if you use a Quick Stick, you can open them even faster. Well in that case, I'll tell you what I am thinking, as long as you don't care..... Hey, we're all entitled to our own opinions.... Missed this earlier... and in response I'll just say this. As I've been picking locks for a living for 27 yrs, my "opinion" is a wee bit more "educated" than most, if you know what I mean. If you want to know something about your vehicle, do you ask a car mechanic with 27yrs experience, or your neighbor who has a fancy set of tools but merely changes his own oil? Nuff said, no offense meant.
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At $40 per set, they'd better be good. Don't know how many in a "set", but I've looked at a few websites (thru googling) and saw some for $33 per pair. The HPCs I've been using for almost 3 decades cost me about $2ea, and although I've got dozens, there's only 3 types I use regularly. A rake for single sided wafer locks, a single ball (double-sided ) for double-sided keyed wafer locks, and a feeler for pins. I've probably got 6 of each... there's a set in both my trucks and wife's car, one I carry in a pocket, and another at each of my two workbenches at home. One pick gun and an electric pick in my work truck, another pick-gun at my workbench in my home shop. For the Master padlocks... on all laminated body padlocks, the locking bar(s) are springloaded, rather than held in place by a rigid-when-locked ball bearing. "Shim" picks will pop open those shackles in seconds... but it's not "picking" the tumblers, it's shimming down the shackle to move back the locking bar. I once opened one of those Masters on a cigarette machine in a bar (on a bet my buddy made with the bar owner) with a shim I made (with a pocket knife) from a beer can. Same thing with the tools for Master & American that go through the cylinders and by-pass the tumblers altogether. That's not "lock picking", that's by-passing lock picking (like using a slim-jim on a car instead of picking a door lock). Those have been around for years, handmade by each user from an old pick, and it's only recently that they've been made commercially. I made my 1st one in 1989. The most commonly used type of file cabinet lock (push to lock type) can be opened in seconds also, similar method, with a modified lock pick. But again, that's not lock-picking, it's a by-pass method. You know why those by-pass tools & methods are used? Because not all locks are easy to pick, even by pros. They may not look it, but each and every key cylinder, in every type of pin tumbler lock imaginable, is as "unique" as a fingerprint. Some are easy, some a little more difficult, some very hard, some not possible in a practical sense. What I mean by that is, as a locksmith, I charge $60 per hour for my services. I'm not going to take 20 minutes or more to pick a hard to open $8 padlock that's locked onto something that won't allow me enough room to shim the shackle. A cordless rotary tool (like a Dremel) with a cut off wheel goes right through the hardest shackles in seconds. Time is money. BTW.... WTF is "tactical covert entry"? Sounds highly illegal to me, unless your a CIA agent or something... or in the movies. I've known dozens of LEOs...got them in the family, shoot & hunt with some, all the way from local-yokels up to WI State Troopers, FBI, and U.S. Marshalls. NONE of them pick locks... they get warrants and call someone like me who does it for a living. In 27 yrs in the business, I've opened both locks & safes for DEA, IRS, U.S. Marshalls, county Sheriff Depts, local PDs, and even the WI DNR. Every single time was with a search warrant. I haven't opened a house under a foreclosure warrant with the Sheriff in almost 2 weeks now. Quoted:
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Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I say take him up on his offer and you might also be able to see him shoot an oxygen tank with his Mosin at 1000yards.
Every lock is different; sometimes, you try the same lock ten times in a row and your times are all over the place. It's taken me anywhere from ten seconds to thirty minutes to get back into my house after getting locked out, and I know those locks very well. I am a bit of a hack, and generally just use different rakes depending on the brand of lock. If I had only one, it would be the standard rake; it's also a very easy shape to make out of paperclips. Fun regardless... Absolutely the truth. Sometimes it's just luck that gets the pins to hang up in proper order to be picked. Rake picks are very effective on wafer tumbler locks and pin tumbler locks coded to keys with similar depths of cuts. If a key has a deep before shallow cut, you CANNOT reach those shallow cuts with a rake IF the deep cut tumblers pick first. You have no control over which will pick first. That's determined purely randomly by misallignment of chambers in the individual lock itself. Pin tumbler locks are best picked one tumbler at a time with a "feeler" pick, and if I had only one, this would be it.... or with a pick gun.
eta: before today, I've never heard of those "bogota" picks, never seen them advertised nor spoken of in neither of the monthly locksmith magazines I subscribe to. I've used these since I got my 1st set in the late 1970s. Also have these, two of these, and one of these
If those fail to open a lock in 10 minutes, time is money, I use this.... guarenteed to open it in 30 seconds or less. Bogota picks are advertised at LockCon, DefCon, ITSTactical, SerePick.com, etc. They're very popular in the tactical world for covert entry. ITSTactical.com sells them and has some good videos on them. They're not the end all be all, some locks or jobs require different applications/tools but the bogotas are awesome for padlocks, household locks, etc. They're not advertised in trade magazines because they're sold via a few distributors. All picks are hand-made and hand-polished. $40 for a set? Give them a shot, I know you'll like them. At $40 per set, they'd better be good. Don't know how many in a "set", but I've looked at a few websites (thru googling) and saw some for $33 per pair. The HPCs I've been using for almost 3 decades cost me about $2ea, and although I've got dozens, there's only 3 types I use regularly. A rake for single sided wafer locks, a single ball (double-sided ) for double-sided keyed wafer locks, and a feeler for pins. I've probably got 6 of each... there's a set in both my trucks and wife's car, one I carry in a pocket, and another at each of my two workbenches at home. One pick gun and an electric pick in my work truck, another pick-gun at my workbench in my home shop. For the Master padlocks... on all laminated body padlocks, the locking bar(s) are springloaded, rather than held in place by a rigid-when-locked ball bearing. "Shim" picks will pop open those shackles in seconds... but it's not "picking" the tumblers, it's shimming down the shackle to move back the locking bar. I once opened one of those Masters on a cigarette machine in a bar (on a bet my buddy made with the bar owner) with a shim I made (with a pocket knife) from a beer can. Same thing with the tools for Master & American that go through the cylinders and by-pass the tumblers altogether. That's not "lock picking", that's by-passing lock picking (like using a slim-jim on a car instead of picking a door lock). Those have been around for years, handmade by each user from an old pick, and it's only recently that they've been made commercially. I made my 1st one in 1989. The most commonly used type of file cabinet lock (push to lock type) can be opened in seconds also, similar method, with a modified lock pick. But again, that's not lock-picking, it's a by-pass method. You know why those by-pass tools & methods are used? Because not all locks are easy to pick, even by pros. They may not look it, but each and every key cylinder, in every type of pin tumbler lock imaginable, is as "unique" as a fingerprint. Some are easy, some a little more difficult, some very hard, some not possible in a practical sense. What I mean by that is, as a locksmith, I charge $60 per hour for my services. I'm not going to take 20 minutes or more to pick a hard to open $8 padlock that's locked onto something that won't allow me enough room to shim the shackle. A cordless rotary tool (like a Dremel) with a cut off wheel goes right through the hardest shackles in seconds. Time is money. BTW.... WTF is "tactical covert entry"? Sounds highly illegal to me, unless your a CIA agent or something... or in the movies. I've known dozens of LEOs...got them in the family, shoot & hunt with some, all the way from local-yokels up to WI State Troopers, FBI, and U.S. Marshalls. NONE of them pick locks... they get warrants and call someone like me who does it for a living. In 27 yrs in the business, I've opened both locks & safes for DEA, IRS, U.S. Marshalls, county Sheriff Depts, local PDs, and even the WI DNR. Every single time was with a search warrant. I haven't opened a house under a foreclosure warrant with the Sheriff in almost 2 weeks now. Here is some info on the bogota picks: http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/lock-picking/serepick-bogota-entry-toolset-review/ Yes, $35-$40 for a set (or pair). In regards to the covert entry, I am surprised you or Nam haven't heard of it. It's entry tactics taught to military and LEOs, usually SWAT. Of course they're using the methods legally, but it's still covert entry without busting a door down. Here are a few companies that offer such services since neither of you are familiar with the term or use/appltication: https://www.letrainers.com/ http://www.qtactical.com/covert-entry-training/ --- this one even offers a specific Medeco course. http://www.jerichospecializedentrytraining.com/ http://www.tacticalelectronics.com/courses/27/courses/0/all/62/covert-methods-of-entry-basics-tools-and-techniques http://www.hollotec.com/Hollotec/Home.html These are merely a few companies, there are tons more that teach covert entry tactics/methods. |
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As pointed out by RFB45Colt, everything about that is funny. Quoted:
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They're very popular in the tactical world for covert entry. Something funny about that? As pointed out by RFB45Colt, everything about that is funny. Look at the post above this one. You'll see what I am talking about since you're not familiar with the use, application, or training methodologies surrounding covert entry. Nothing funny about it at all. But good job. |
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Missed this earlier... and in response I'll just say this. As I've been picking locks for a living for 27 yrs, my "opinion" is a wee bit more "educated" than most, if you know what I mean. If you want to know something about your vehicle, do you ask a car mechanic with 27yrs experience, or your neighbor who has a fancy set of tools but merely changes his own oil? Nuff said, no offense meant.Quoted:
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Surprised it took so long for a "lock expert" to show up.
Um... just color me "skeptical"... as I'm too polite to say out loud what I'm really thinking.
Master padlock in 5 seconds.... as my grandpa used to say "put the hip boots on boys, it's getting deep". I've done it repeatedly. The majority of masterlock padlocks can be picked in seconds with my bogota picks. The longest one I ran into took 3 minutes and it was because it was frozen and I had to work the pins free and ruined a set of picks doing it. If you're ever in the Appleton area let me know. I'll be happy to give you a one-on-one demonstration. ETA: I don't give a shit what you're thinking... I've picked and seen masterlock padlocks picked in seconds, repeatedly. One of the easiest to pick. In fact, if you use a Quick Stick, you can open them even faster. Well in that case, I'll tell you what I am thinking, as long as you don't care..... Hey, we're all entitled to our own opinions.... Missed this earlier... and in response I'll just say this. As I've been picking locks for a living for 27 yrs, my "opinion" is a wee bit more "educated" than most, if you know what I mean. If you want to know something about your vehicle, do you ask a car mechanic with 27yrs experience, or your neighbor who has a fancy set of tools but merely changes his own oil? Nuff said, no offense meant.I don't think anyone was questioning your experience or education. I without a doubt admit you know more about locks than I do. I am not a locksmith. I practice the sport of lock picking to aid me in a Urban E&E setting or a practical application like locking myself out of my house or in a survival situation where you may need to get into something. That doesn't change the fact that I can pick household locks, padlocks, etc in a very short time with my bogota picks. As I said, I have trouble picking American Locks.... I have done it but only a few times and it took me 20 minutes. For those, I use the by-pass method. Master padlocks on the other hand I dont use the bypass method, I pick those. I also dont use bump keys, though I am starting to get into those. |
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Being able to purchase "x" doesn't mean that "x" is useful or practical; it only means that people are willing to pay for "x".
I have no doubt there are uses for such "covert" entry techniques. I also have no doubt that they are extremely rare. As mentioned by rfbcolt45, he's worked extensively with various LEO agencies. My guess is that the majority of those classes are either "hobbyists", or folks that end up never using the skills outside of goofing around. As for the "tactical" aspect, it's common knowledge that "tactical" anything means it's twice the price as the "non-tactical" counterpart...when they're likely the same product/service. |
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Being able to purchase "x" doesn't mean that "x" is useful or practical; it only means that people are willing to pay for "x". I have no doubt there are uses for such "covert" entry techniques. I also have no doubt that they are extremely rare. As mentioned by rfbcolt45, he's worked extensively with various LEO agencies. My guess is that the majority of those classes are either "hobbyists", or folks that end up never using the skills outside of goofing around. As for the "tactical" aspect, it's common knowledge that "tactical" anything means it's twice the price as the "non-tactical" counterpart...when they're likely the same product/service. Most of the courses I linked to you, are LE/MIL only. Not hobbyists. I know when I went to school at Fox Valley Tech for criminal justice, one of the instructors has his own business on the side teaching covert entry and its MIL/LE only. I am sure some of the attendees are using their credentials for fun or learning a hobby skill but not the majority. |
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I could see military using "covert entry" in a war zone, but in the U.S.A.? Like Uncle SI Robertson says so eloquently & redneckishly.... "Naaaww". Like I said earlier, anyone - LE & mil included - whom uses covert entry on U.S. soil without a warrant is likely doing so illegally. "Covert" & "warrant" aren't two words you see together much.
I can tell you one thing from experience, when picking open door locks on a warrant - even though assured it's a vacant premise - it's a little dicey for me to be right in front of the door when doing so. The thought of a shotgun blast coming through that door from some scumbag hiding inside is tooooo close for comfort. I suppose that's why SWAT teams mostly use rams, ya think? WAM-BAM it's open! I don't care how much "schoolin" you've had, or experience, those aren't optimum working conditions, and NOBODY picks as fast as a ram. So I find it hard to believe there's a practical application for LEOs to be taking such training. If they are, and are actually doing covert stuff, sans warrants, we're more fucked than I realized.... and I think were pretty fucked by govt as it is anyway.
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I could see military using "covert entry" in a war zone, but in the U.S.A.? Like Uncle SI Robertson says so eloquently & redneckishly.... "Naaaww". Like I said earlier, anyone - LE & mil included - whom uses covert entry on U.S. soil without a warrant is likely doing so illegally. "Covert" & "warrant" aren't two words you see together much.
I can tell you one thing from experience, when picking open door locks on a warrant - even though assured it's a vacant premise - it's a little dicey for me to be right in front of the door when doing so. The thought of a shotgun blast coming through that door from some scumbag hiding inside is tooooo close for comfort. I suppose that's why SWAT teams mostly use rams, ya think? WAM-BAM it's open! I don't care how much "schoolin" you've had, or experience, those aren't optimum working conditions, and NOBODY picks as fast as a ram. So I find it hard to believe there's a practical application for LEOs to be taking such training. If they are, and are actually doing covert stuff, sans warrants, we're more fucked than I realized.... and I think were pretty fucked by govt as it is anyway. Exactly. |
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I practice the sport of lock picking to aid me in a Urban E&E setting or a practical application like locking myself out of my house or in a survival situation where you may need to get into something. Locked out of your house? Ok. No problem. But like I tell my customers when they ask me "where can I buy a tool like that?", I tell them just go to Ace Hardware and get a spare key made.... works much quicker, and it's much cheaper.
As for getting into something in a survival situation, unless you're talking about a good safe, an 870 works wonders on most others. If SHTF, I'd be glad to have my safe opening stuff around, just in case... but my 12ga becomes my lock pick.
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I could see military using "covert entry" in a war zone, but in the U.S.A.? Like Uncle SI Robertson says so eloquently & redneckishly.... "Naaaww". Like I said earlier, anyone - LE & mil included - whom uses covert entry on U.S. soil without a warrant is likely doing so illegally. "Covert" & "warrant" aren't two words you see together much.
I can tell you one thing from experience, when picking open door locks on a warrant - even though assured it's a vacant premise - it's a little dicey for me to be right in front of the door when doing so. The thought of a shotgun blast coming through that door from some scumbag hiding inside is tooooo close for comfort. I suppose that's why SWAT teams mostly use rams, ya think? WAM-BAM it's open! I don't care how much "schoolin" you've had, or experience, those aren't optimum working conditions, and NOBODY picks as fast as a ram. So I find it hard to believe there's a practical application for LEOs to be taking such training. If they are, and are actually doing covert stuff, sans warrants, we're more fucked than I realized.... and I think were pretty fucked by govt as it is anyway. There are applications and use where a ram is not the ideal solution. Obviously have a citizen picking a lock in a dangerous situation is not ideal so that is why covert entry training exists to teach swat operators, le, military, EOD personnel, etc how to pick or bypass locks when needed. Not sure if you realize but with LE the idea is to use the least amount of force as necessary. Using a ram on a door is not always ideal. There is a practical application for covert entry training. It's just not commonplace. Not every cop needs to know how to do it... its generally for swat teams, military, and EOD personnel. Either way, it does it exist as I said and is real
Lock picking and penetration testing are a fun hobby for me so I follow this stuff closely. I would suggest ordering a set of those bogota picks and tell me how you like them. I bet you'll be pleased! |
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Locked out of your house? Ok. No problem. But like I tell my customers when they ask me "where can I buy a tool like that?", I tell them just go to Ace Hardware and get a spare key made.... works much quicker, and it's much cheaper.
As for getting into something in a survival situation, unless you're talking about a good safe, an 870 works wonders on most others. If SHTF, I'd be glad to have my safe opening stuff around, just in case... but my 12ga becomes my lock pick. Quoted:
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I practice the sport of lock picking to aid me in a Urban E&E setting or a practical application like locking myself out of my house or in a survival situation where you may need to get into something. Locked out of your house? Ok. No problem. But like I tell my customers when they ask me "where can I buy a tool like that?", I tell them just go to Ace Hardware and get a spare key made.... works much quicker, and it's much cheaper.
As for getting into something in a survival situation, unless you're talking about a good safe, an 870 works wonders on most others. If SHTF, I'd be glad to have my safe opening stuff around, just in case... but my 12ga becomes my lock pick. Similar to the RAM option you mentioned earlier... blasting a lock open is not always the ideal method. In a survival situation that wastes valuable ammo, and a 870 is not quiet. It draws attention. There are situations that would require an 870 and there are situations where knowing how to pick a lock is ideal. Yes, a spare key is fine, but I enjoy having the skills to pick locks and enjoy the challenge. Having a spare key is not always applicable, either. I've had several instances where people were locked out of our church and those skills came in handy. Or the utility door got locked and the guy with the keys is out of town, came in fine. Not what I would use a 870 for :) |
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Exactly. Quoted:
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I could see military using "covert entry" in a war zone, but in the U.S.A.? Like Uncle SI Robertson says so eloquently & redneckishly.... "Naaaww". Like I said earlier, anyone - LE & mil included - whom uses covert entry on U.S. soil without a warrant is likely doing so illegally. "Covert" & "warrant" aren't two words you see together much.
I can tell you one thing from experience, when picking open door locks on a warrant - even though assured it's a vacant premise - it's a little dicey for me to be right in front of the door when doing so. The thought of a shotgun blast coming through that door from some scumbag hiding inside is tooooo close for comfort. I suppose that's why SWAT teams mostly use rams, ya think? WAM-BAM it's open! I don't care how much "schoolin" you've had, or experience, those aren't optimum working conditions, and NOBODY picks as fast as a ram. So I find it hard to believe there's a practical application for LEOs to be taking such training. If they are, and are actually doing covert stuff, sans warrants, we're more fucked than I realized.... and I think were pretty fucked by govt as it is anyway. Exactly. I hate to burst the bubble but covert entry is used in the USA. Of course it's not something every LEO needs to know. It's a specialized skill. It's used when needed in a specialized case. |
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[There are applications and use where a ram is not the ideal solution. Obviously have a citizen picking a lock in a dangerous situation is not ideal so that is why covert entry training exists to teach swat operators, le, military, EOD personnel, etc how to pick or bypass locks when needed. Not sure if you realize but with LE the idea is to use the least amount of force as necessary. Using a ram on a door is not always ideal. There is a practical application for covert entry training. It's just not commonplace. Not every cop needs to know how to do it... its generally for swat teams, military, and EOD personnel. Either way, it does it exist as I said and is real
Lock picking and penetration testing are a fun hobby for me so I follow this stuff closely. I would suggest ordering a set of those bogota picks and tell me how you like them. I bet you'll be pleased! I will readily admit that having the ability to open anything, at anytime, or anywhere, is a cool thing to learn and have. It's a "perk" of my job, that's only below setting my own hours & being my own boss, on my list of why I do what I do. And if it trips your trigger, and you make it into a hobby, more power to you. I can understand why. I still remember the thrill I got the first time I picked a lock, unlocked a vehicle, or turned that handle on a previously locked safe. It was a rush, for sure... still is, every time I "crack" a good safe, but picking locks and unlocking vehicles has become, well...just boring, I guess.
But I'd caution you that the rest of the world may not feel that way... especially those in authority. Carrying that stuff around in your vehicle is not a wise thing to do, IMHO. Try explaining why you have - what most LEOs would consider "burglary tools" - in your possession, might not fly too well when you say "it's just a hobby", or "in case I get locked out of my house", or "in the case the balloon goes up today". If there's been any "covert entries" in your area, you are now suspect 'numero uno'. They may be legal to "own", but so are a lot of other things that the average person doesn't tote around with them. A gallon of chlorine bleach, a gallon of ammonia, and a gas mask are all legal items, but I wouldn't suggest walking around with all of them in your hands through a crowded mall. Nor carrying a chain-saw and wearing a hockey mask.
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This is a skill I've always wanted to learn. Being a landlord means having to get into units when the tenants lock themselves out, change the locks, or change them around eviction time. While I've gotten pretty good with an old hatched I found at a yard sale, replacement doors are more expensive than I prefer.
Mike |
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This is a skill I've always wanted to learn. Being a landlord means having to get into units when the tenants lock themselves out, change the locks, or change them around eviction time. While I've gotten pretty good with an old hatched I found at a yard sale, replacement doors are more expensive than I prefer. Mike Unless I miss my guess, your rental units probably have either Kwikset or Weiser locks on them... the 2 most popular, by far, for residential use, as they're inexpensive and readily available. (Schlage would be 3rd) These are relatively easy to pick, and if you cannot pick them, there are other ways to open them that might destroy the lock, but won't damage the door at all. Kwikset door knobs especially, are extremely vulnerable to a common tool sold in almost every auto parts store (not intending to educate would-be burglars, so I won't say what it is, or how it's used, in an open forum). Buy a pick set, and a book, and what's called a "plug spinner" if you can find one. Sometimes a lock can be easily picked in one direction, but not the other. If "the other" is the direction of rotation needed to open it, the plug spinner will spin it past the lock-up position in the correct rotation direction, fast enough that it will not relock itself. Read the book, then pick up some Kwikset knobs ($10 at Menards), and go for it. The book is important. If you don't know how they work, you won't know what exactly you're trying to accomplish. Knowing, makes it all make sense. This thread is full of online sources that sell to anyone (in DavidKs posts... those in mine will not sell to anyone but locksmiths). Just tell them you're a "covert entry tactical operator". Seriously, you've got a legitimate need for it, fullfill it. The only advice I can give is have patience (lots of it) and use a light touch.
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I will readily admit that having the ability to open anything, at anytime, or anywhere, is a cool thing to learn and have. It's a "perk" of my job, that's only below setting my own hours & being my own boss, on my list of why I do what I do. And if it trips your trigger, and you make it into a hobby, more power to you. I can understand why. I still remember the thrill I got the first time I picked a lock, unlocked a vehicle, or turned that handle on a previously locked safe. It was a rush, for sure... still is, every time I "crack" a good safe, but picking locks and unlocking vehicles has become, well...just boring, I guess.
But I'd caution you that the rest of the world may not feel that way... especially those in authority. Carrying that stuff around in your vehicle is not a wise thing to do, IMHO. Try explaining why you have - what most LEOs would consider "burglary tools" - in your possession, might not fly too well when you say "it's just a hobby", or "in case I get locked out of my house", or "in the case the balloon goes up today". If there's been any "covert entries" in your area, you are now suspect 'numero uno'. They may be legal to "own", but so are a lot of other things that the average person doesn't tote around with them. A gallon of chlorine bleach, a gallon of ammonia, and a gas mask are all legal items, but I wouldn't suggest walking around with all of them in your hands through a crowded mall. Nor carrying a chain-saw and wearing a hockey mask. Quoted:
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[There are applications and use where a ram is not the ideal solution. Obviously have a citizen picking a lock in a dangerous situation is not ideal so that is why covert entry training exists to teach swat operators, le, military, EOD personnel, etc how to pick or bypass locks when needed. Not sure if you realize but with LE the idea is to use the least amount of force as necessary. Using a ram on a door is not always ideal. There is a practical application for covert entry training. It's just not commonplace. Not every cop needs to know how to do it... its generally for swat teams, military, and EOD personnel. Either way, it does it exist as I said and is real
Lock picking and penetration testing are a fun hobby for me so I follow this stuff closely. I would suggest ordering a set of those bogota picks and tell me how you like them. I bet you'll be pleased! I will readily admit that having the ability to open anything, at anytime, or anywhere, is a cool thing to learn and have. It's a "perk" of my job, that's only below setting my own hours & being my own boss, on my list of why I do what I do. And if it trips your trigger, and you make it into a hobby, more power to you. I can understand why. I still remember the thrill I got the first time I picked a lock, unlocked a vehicle, or turned that handle on a previously locked safe. It was a rush, for sure... still is, every time I "crack" a good safe, but picking locks and unlocking vehicles has become, well...just boring, I guess.
But I'd caution you that the rest of the world may not feel that way... especially those in authority. Carrying that stuff around in your vehicle is not a wise thing to do, IMHO. Try explaining why you have - what most LEOs would consider "burglary tools" - in your possession, might not fly too well when you say "it's just a hobby", or "in case I get locked out of my house", or "in the case the balloon goes up today". If there's been any "covert entries" in your area, you are now suspect 'numero uno'. They may be legal to "own", but so are a lot of other things that the average person doesn't tote around with them. A gallon of chlorine bleach, a gallon of ammonia, and a gas mask are all legal items, but I wouldn't suggest walking around with all of them in your hands through a crowded mall. Nor carrying a chain-saw and wearing a hockey mask. I wont lie, the first time I picked handcuffs with a paperclip and bobby pin, it felt great. But not as good as picking my first padlock and house lock. When I first started, I spent 20 minutes on a very simple kwikset. The rush was fun, its a fun challenge, like trying to solve a puzzle. |
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This is a skill I've always wanted to learn. Being a landlord means having to get into units when the tenants lock themselves out, change the locks, or change them around eviction time. While I've gotten pretty good with an old hatched I found at a yard sale, replacement doors are more expensive than I prefer. Mike This is the book I would highly recommend: http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Lock-Picking-Second-Edition/dp/1597499897/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1382641889&sr=8-2&keywords=lock+picking This book is really really great. This is what I started with. I took a Urban E&E course and they taught us how to pick padlocks and regular pin/tumbler locks that you find on your average house and how to pick handcuffs (super easy) but this book really goes into great detail with tons of pictures explaining how locks work, how to pick them, etc. I also recommend the bogota picks, for a beginner, the picks are so good it helps you be more successful right off the bat. I had a lock picking set I bought online and it does work but when I started using the bogota picks, picking became easier. Just my 2 cents. And definitely like recommended.... use a light touch on the pick and tensioner :) |
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Unless I miss my guess, your rental units probably have either Kwikset or Weiser locks on them... the 2 most popular, by far, for residential use, as they're inexpensive and readily available. (Schlage would be 3rd) These are relatively easy to pick, and if you cannot pick them, there are other ways to open them that might destroy the lock, but won't damage the door at all. Kwikset door knobs especially, are extremely vulnerable to a common tool sold in almost every auto parts store (not intending to educate would-be burglars, so I won't say what it is, or how it's used, in an open forum). Buy a pick set, and a book, and what's called a "plug spinner" if you can find one. Sometimes a lock can be easily picked in one direction, but not the other. If "the other" is the direction of rotation needed to open it, the plug spinner will spin it past the lock-up position in the correct rotation direction, fast enough that it will not relock itself. Read the book, then pick up some Kwikset knobs ($10 at Menards), and go for it. The book is important. If you don't know how they work, you won't know what exactly you're trying to accomplish. Knowing, makes it all make sense. This thread is full of online sources that sell to anyone (in DavidKs posts... those in mine will not sell to anyone but locksmiths). Just tell them you're a "covert entry tactical operator". Seriously, you've got a legitimate need for it, fullfill it. The only advice I can give is have patience (lots of it) and use a light touch. Quoted:
Unless I miss my guess, your rental units probably have either Kwikset or Weiser locks on them... the 2 most popular, by far, for residential use, as they're inexpensive and readily available. (Schlage would be 3rd) These are relatively easy to pick, and if you cannot pick them, there are other ways to open them that might destroy the lock, but won't damage the door at all. Kwikset door knobs especially, are extremely vulnerable to a common tool sold in almost every auto parts store (not intending to educate would-be burglars, so I won't say what it is, or how it's used, in an open forum). Buy a pick set, and a book, and what's called a "plug spinner" if you can find one. Sometimes a lock can be easily picked in one direction, but not the other. If "the other" is the direction of rotation needed to open it, the plug spinner will spin it past the lock-up position in the correct rotation direction, fast enough that it will not relock itself. Read the book, then pick up some Kwikset knobs ($10 at Menards), and go for it. The book is important. If you don't know how they work, you won't know what exactly you're trying to accomplish. Knowing, makes it all make sense. This thread is full of online sources that sell to anyone (in DavidKs posts... those in mine will not sell to anyone but locksmiths). Just tell them you're a "covert entry tactical operator". Seriously, you've got a legitimate need for it, fullfill it. The only advice I can give is have patience (lots of it) and use a light touch. You missed, but not by much. All of the locks on our properties are Defiant brand- Home Depot's cheapest of the cheap. We end up having to swap them out every year or so because that's how long the tenants stay around. It's cheaper to swap the locks around than it is to re-key. I'd prefer Kwikset because they're better quality, are easier to install, and becauseI usually have to sand or grind away excess burrs and pot metal in those POS Defiants.
You've got my interest with that automotive tool. Just Googled the plug spinner. Interesting and not too expensive. I just had to change out some locks on a file cabinet and on a tenant's door, so I've got some stuff to learn on and a long winter ahead! What book are you recommending? For the sellers who demand creds, do you think I can make the case that I need the tools as a landlord or will they want some sort of locksmith certification? Quoted:
This is the book I would highly recommend: http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Lock-Picking-Second-Edition/dp/1597499897/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1382641889&sr=8-2&keywords=lock+picking This book is really really great. This is what I started with. I took a Urban E&E course and they taught us how to pick padlocks and regular pin/tumbler locks that you find on your average house and how to pick handcuffs (super easy) but this book really goes into great detail with tons of pictures explaining how locks work, how to pick them, etc. I also recommend the bogota picks, for a beginner, the picks are so good it helps you be more successful right off the bat. I had a lock picking set I bought online and it does work but when I started using the bogota picks, picking became easier. Just my 2 cents. And definitely like recommended.... use a light touch on the pick and tensioner :) Thank you! (And I have to ask- where did you find an E&E course like that?) Looks like I'll be buying a new book soon, too. Dumb question- what's the difference between a regular pick and a Bogata pick? Mike |
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You missed, but not by much. All of the locks on our properties are Defiant brand- Home Depot's cheapest of the cheap. We end up having to swap them out every year or so because that's how long the tenants stay around. It's cheaper to swap the locks around than it is to re-key. I'd prefer Kwikset because they're better quality, are easier to install, and becauseI usually have to sand or grind away excess burrs and pot metal in those POS Defiants.
You've got my interest with that automotive tool. Just Googled the plug spinner. Interesting and not too expensive. I just had to change out some locks on a file cabinet and on a tenant's door, so I've got some stuff to learn on and a long winter ahead! What book are you recommending? For the sellers who demand creds, do you think I can make the case that I need the tools as a landlord or will they want some sort of locksmith certification? As for recommending a book, I can't help with that. I haven't read any locksmith / lock picking books in decades. As I've been doing this so long, I haven't needed any books, so I have no clue what's available. That's like asking a cow about a book to learn how to moo.
The automotive tool only works on Kwikset and Kwikset "clones" like the Atlas brand sold at Menards. I'll send you an IM with info. Last question, again I have no answer, as I've never bought any entry tools online from anyplace where I did not have a business account. But I wouldn't use the term "landlord". Use "commercial property management". |
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You missed, but not by much. All of the locks on our properties are Defiant brand- Home Depot's cheapest of the cheap. We end up having to swap them out every year or so because that's how long the tenants stay around. It's cheaper to swap the locks around than it is to re-key. I'd prefer Kwikset because they're better quality, are easier to install, and becauseI usually have to sand or grind away excess burrs and pot metal in those POS Defiants.
You've got my interest with that automotive tool. Just Googled the plug spinner. Interesting and not too expensive. I just had to change out some locks on a file cabinet and on a tenant's door, so I've got some stuff to learn on and a long winter ahead! What book are you recommending? For the sellers who demand creds, do you think I can make the case that I need the tools as a landlord or will they want some sort of locksmith certification? Thank you! (And I have to ask- where did you find an E&E course like that?) Looks like I'll be buying a new book soon, too. Dumb question- what's the difference between a regular pick and a Bogata pick? Mike Quoted:
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Unless I miss my guess, your rental units probably have either Kwikset or Weiser locks on them... the 2 most popular, by far, for residential use, as they're inexpensive and readily available. (Schlage would be 3rd) These are relatively easy to pick, and if you cannot pick them, there are other ways to open them that might destroy the lock, but won't damage the door at all. Kwikset door knobs especially, are extremely vulnerable to a common tool sold in almost every auto parts store (not intending to educate would-be burglars, so I won't say what it is, or how it's used, in an open forum). Buy a pick set, and a book, and what's called a "plug spinner" if you can find one. Sometimes a lock can be easily picked in one direction, but not the other. If "the other" is the direction of rotation needed to open it, the plug spinner will spin it past the lock-up position in the correct rotation direction, fast enough that it will not relock itself. Read the book, then pick up some Kwikset knobs ($10 at Menards), and go for it. The book is important. If you don't know how they work, you won't know what exactly you're trying to accomplish. Knowing, makes it all make sense. This thread is full of online sources that sell to anyone (in DavidKs posts... those in mine will not sell to anyone but locksmiths). Just tell them you're a "covert entry tactical operator". Seriously, you've got a legitimate need for it, fullfill it. The only advice I can give is have patience (lots of it) and use a light touch. You missed, but not by much. All of the locks on our properties are Defiant brand- Home Depot's cheapest of the cheap. We end up having to swap them out every year or so because that's how long the tenants stay around. It's cheaper to swap the locks around than it is to re-key. I'd prefer Kwikset because they're better quality, are easier to install, and becauseI usually have to sand or grind away excess burrs and pot metal in those POS Defiants.
You've got my interest with that automotive tool. Just Googled the plug spinner. Interesting and not too expensive. I just had to change out some locks on a file cabinet and on a tenant's door, so I've got some stuff to learn on and a long winter ahead! What book are you recommending? For the sellers who demand creds, do you think I can make the case that I need the tools as a landlord or will they want some sort of locksmith certification? Quoted:
This is the book I would highly recommend: http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Lock-Picking-Second-Edition/dp/1597499897/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1382641889&sr=8-2&keywords=lock+picking This book is really really great. This is what I started with. I took a Urban E&E course and they taught us how to pick padlocks and regular pin/tumbler locks that you find on your average house and how to pick handcuffs (super easy) but this book really goes into great detail with tons of pictures explaining how locks work, how to pick them, etc. I also recommend the bogota picks, for a beginner, the picks are so good it helps you be more successful right off the bat. I had a lock picking set I bought online and it does work but when I started using the bogota picks, picking became easier. Just my 2 cents. And definitely like recommended.... use a light touch on the pick and tensioner :) Thank you! (And I have to ask- where did you find an E&E course like that?) Looks like I'll be buying a new book soon, too. Dumb question- what's the difference between a regular pick and a Bogata pick? Mike The Urban E&E course I attended was done by OnPoint Tactical. Here is their website: http://www.onpointtactical.com/default.aspx --- I became friends with Kelly Alwood who is an instructor for OnPoint but also is a highly sought after private contractor for penetration testing and he has helped me tremendously in increasing my skill in a fast way. I highly recommend the course, they teach everything from lockpicking, bypassing, how to pick handcuffs with paperclips/bobbypins, breaking zipties, zipcuffs, etc. How to get out of any kind of restraint and things like social engineering, offensive/defensive driving. You'd love it. There are tons of different picks out there (feelers, rake, diamond, etc) all have their own uses for certain locks. Bogota picks are custom hand-made picks from a guy named Raimundo. They're called Bogota picks because he designed them when he was in Bogota Columbia. Bogota picks come as a set, you get one feeler and the main pick which I dont think there is a name for. To a newbie these picks make it 50% easier to pick your standard padlocks and household locks. Here is a great write up on the picks: http://www.itstactical.com/skillcom/lock-picking/serepick-bogota-entry-toolset-review/ They also sell them. |