Posted: 1/11/2013 4:34:25 PM EDT
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I'm curious about something, and I know there's several guys here with a FFL. If a customer fills out a 4473 for a long gun, and NICS outright denies the sale, what do you do with the 4473 he/she filled out?
Reason I'm asking, I heard a statistic today on a radio talk show, that stated that over 2,000,000 denials have occurred since NICS began in 1998, yet less than 100 people have been prosecuted for falsely filling out the 4473... and not one prosecution since Obummer got elected in '08. There's no way 2,000,000 people just didn't know they were disqualified. I'm betting way more than those prosecuted knew it but tried sneak through the system anyway. So I'm wondering if you're required to send that form to ATF for possible investigation, or is the info given during the phone call enough for them? Have you had denials that you knew, they knew that they were prohibited persons? Have any been prosecuted to your knowledge? Share the stories, if you will. If those numbers are correct, that is a serious issue that the freaking news media should not cover-up by non-coverage. WTF good are gun laws that aren't enforced? |
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Mind if I hijack your thread? I was wondering about transferring a gun to an out of state FFL. If someone in IL wanted to buy a gun of mine can I drive to the FFL in IL and transfer it to him or does it have to be shipped? Seems like a dumb question because what would be the difference but you never know. I am close enough to the border where it might be worthwhile to drive there and get the money from the buyer and hand off the gun to the FFL.
Now I am wondering if an IL resident can buy a gun from an FFL in WI and take it back home. Time to hit google. |
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Quoted:
I'm curious about something, and I know there's several guys here with a FFL. If a customer fills out a 4473 for a long gun, and NICS outright denies the sale, what do you do with the 4473 he/she filled out? Reason I'm asking, I heard a statistic today on a radio talk show, that stated that over 2,000,000 denials have occurred since NICS began in 1998, yet less than 100 people have been prosecuted for falsely filling out the 4473... and not one prosecution since Obummer got elected in '08. There's no way 2,000,000 people just didn't know they were disqualified. I'm betting way more than those prosecuted knew it but tried sneak through the system anyway. So I'm wondering if you're required to send that form to ATF for possible investigation, or is the info given during the phone call enough for them? Have you had denials that you knew, they knew that they were prohibited persons? Have any been prosecuted to your knowledge? Share the stories, if you will. If those numbers are correct, that is a serious issue that the freaking news media should not cover-up by non-coverage. WTF good are gun laws that aren't enforced? By law, we must keep the denied 4473 for five years. Anybody who provides a prohibited possessor (PP) a firearm with knowledge of that PP's status commits a felony. That's the basic level- being a FFL and letting them do a 4473 and calling it in is even worse. And even if they pass NICS, we're still getting charged with that and more when things go south with the PP and their firearm. So, you're probably not going to hear any stories about any FFL allowing a PP to do a 4473 just to get denied. 
Mike |
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Quoted:
Mind if I hijack your thread? I was wondering about transferring a gun to an out of state FFL. If someone in IL wanted to buy a gun of mine can I drive to the FFL in IL and transfer it to him or does it have to be shipped? Seems like a dumb question because what would be the difference but you never know. I am close enough to the border where it might be worthwhile to drive there and get the money from the buyer and hand off the gun to the FFL. You have to go through the FFL. It's perfectly fine for you to ship or hand-deliver to the FFL, but the transfer MUST go from you to FFL to buyer. The only exceptions are pre-1898, post-1898 blackpowder, NFA weapons on an approved Form 5 in an estate situation, or C&R to a C&R licensee. (Certain states and municipalities may not recognize some of these exemptions.) Mike |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I'm curious about something, and I know there's several guys here with a FFL. If a customer fills out a 4473 for a long gun, and NICS outright denies the sale, what do you do with the 4473 he/she filled out? Reason I'm asking, I heard a statistic today on a radio talk show, that stated that over 2,000,000 denials have occurred since NICS began in 1998, yet less than 100 people have been prosecuted for falsely filling out the 4473... and not one prosecution since Obummer got elected in '08. There's no way 2,000,000 people just didn't know they were disqualified. I'm betting way more than those prosecuted knew it but tried sneak through the system anyway. So I'm wondering if you're required to send that form to ATF for possible investigation, or is the info given during the phone call enough for them? Have you had denials that you knew, they knew that they were prohibited persons? Have any been prosecuted to your knowledge? Share the stories, if you will. If those numbers are correct, that is a serious issue that the freaking news media should not cover-up by non-coverage. WTF good are gun laws that aren't enforced? By law, we must keep the denied 4473 for five years. Anybody who provides a prohibited possessor (PP) a firearm with knowledge of that PP's status commits a felony. That's the basic level- being a FFL and letting them do a 4473 and calling it in is even worse. And even if they pass NICS, we're still getting charged with that and more when things go south with the PP and their firearm. So, you're probably not going to hear any stories about any FFL allowing a PP to do a 4473 just to get denied.
Mike Thanks. But I think you misinterpreted a big part of my question. It wasn't about you intentionally calling in for someone you personally knew was a PP... what I meant by that, was just by their appearance, demeanor, etc, (I know a gang-banger when I see one) of a customer you've never seen before, you were suspicious.... and were correct in those suspicions. Not talking about straw purchasers per se, neither, but someone who tries to buy themself when they knew they could not, and was just testing the system to see if they could sneak through it. As I said, if those numbers of denials and prosecutions are correct, and the denials were not just clerical errors (wrong person, same name, mix-ups), then there had to be a bunch of PPs who tried to buy firearms from a legal source, knowing they should not. The law states it's a crime to falsely fill out a 4473. If you are a PP and know it, and say so on the form by correct answers, the transaction stops right there, doesn't it? If the answers filled out are false (intentionally), that's a felony, isn't it? What I'm getting at is, how many of those felonies are prosecuted? If a PP gets denied, does anybody think he says "Aw shucks... guess I can't have a gun"? Or does he recruit a straw purchaser, do black market shopping, or buy from an innocent private seller? To keep guns out of the wrong peoples' hands, wouldn't it make sense to aggressively pursue those prosecutions? Or is it all just blowing smoke to even have a penalty for a false filing on a 4473? BTW.... has anyone with a FFL who has 'denied' 4473s in their possession, ever been asked by BATFE, or any other LE agency, for the form? Or have they all just collected dust in your file cabinets for 5 years? I'd think if there were to be a prosecution, they'd want the "evidence". |
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By law, we must keep the denied 4473 for five years. Two more questions: How long do you have to keep records of firearms sales that were made in your Log book (or whatever it is officially called)? It seems like it was 7 years, but it may be all, I would like to know. Do most FFL's purge their older records as time goes on. When an FFL closes out the business he gives his existing logs to the ATF, correct? |
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Quoted:
Thanks. But I think you misinterpreted a big part of my question. It wasn't about you intentionally calling in for someone you personally knew was a PP... what I meant by that, was just by their appearance, demeanor, etc, (I know a gang-banger when I see one) of a customer you've never seen before, you were suspicious.... and were correct in those suspicions. Not talking about straw purchasers per se, neither, but someone who tries to buy themself when they knew they could not, and was just testing the system to see if they could sneak through it. As I said, if those numbers of denials and prosecutions are correct, and the denials were not just clerical errors (wrong person, same name, mix-ups), then there had to be a bunch of PPs who tried to buy firearms from a legal source, knowing they should not. The law states it's a crime to falsely fill out a 4473. If you are a PP and know it, and say so on the form by correct answers, the transaction stops right there, doesn't it? If the answers filled out are false (intentionally), that's a felony, isn't it? What I'm getting at is, how many of those felonies are prosecuted? If a PP gets denied, does anybody think he says "Aw shucks... guess I can't have a gun"? Or does he recruit a straw purchaser, do black market shopping, or buy from an innocent private seller? To keep guns out of the wrong peoples' hands, wouldn't it make sense to aggressively pursue those prosecutions? Or is it all just blowing smoke to even have a penalty for a false filing on a 4473? BTW.... has anyone with a FFL who has 'denied' 4473s in their possession, ever been asked by BATFE, or any other LE agency, for the form? Or have they all just collected dust in your file cabinets for 5 years? I'd think if there were to be a prosecution, they'd want the "evidence". Oops, my error. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm probably not the best guy to ask because I'm very selective with my customers. Being out of my house, I don't want every weirdo on the street coming in here or even knowing that I exist. I also rarely stock anything unless I land a smoking deal for resale- I'm normally special order only. Thus, 95% of my clients are either repeat buyers or folks referred by an existing relationship.
I think I have a local gun show table once every other year at most. I don't like doing local shows because my stuff gets damaged from careless handling and greasy hands, people who keep telling me that I'm selling "illegal guns," and I always end up with sick within a week. I'm also very paranoid about theft- I don't want to be filing papers with ATF because a handgun or a receiver, much less a suppressor, walked away. And FWIW, if someone gives me any sort of uncomfortable feeling, I just deny the sale. They don't even get to filling out a 4473. They can buy from somebody else- I'm not the only dealer at the show. Two or three years ago (at my last local show), I had one guy who wanted to buy something but "wasn't sure" about the paperwork and if he could pass NICS. He refused to give any details to see if I could tell him if we was good. I said I couldn't help him and sent him on his way. That was my most recent personal denial. The one prior to that was an obvious drunk- could've blown the place into low orbit by lighting a match on his breath! Actually, ALL of the few times I've refused a sale came from random local gun show people. Maybe another reason why I don't like doing local shows... It is a felony to falsely fill out (perjury) a 4473. There is a guy serving time in a federal prison in south-central Illinois for lying on two 4473s. I personally helped to put him there because they were my 4473s. I'd do it again in an instant if the scenario repeated itself. I'm not interested in discussing the particulars in a public forum, but I'd be pleased to talk openly about it in person with anybody who is curious. I've only had a small number of denials and I've NEVER been approached by local, state, or federal LE concerning those denials. They're collecting dust with all of the others. The guy in prison was approved by WI and by the ATF. He even got a personal CLEO signoff. The item requiring a signoff is probably the ONLY reason that they went after him to the level they did. Interestingly, the arresting agency and ATF only wanted copies of all transaction forms. Apparently that was enough. Yes, if the person indicates on the form that they're prohibited, the transaction stops there without a UPIN or evidence in hand that they have a pardon. I've had two or three UPINs and one pardon in my eight years. My guess is that a determined PP will just do a straw sale- and I don't think that they will even bother trying to avoid attention. Then again, it's not like they get any attention for trying any how. Incidentally, occasionally NICS screws up and gives a false approval when it should be a denial. Those are always fun when NICS calls back and asks if the firearm has already been transferred. Mike |
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By law, we must keep the denied 4473 for five years. Two more questions: How long do you have to keep records of firearms sales that were made in your Log book (or whatever it is officially called)? It seems like it was 7 years, but it may be all, I would like to know. Do most FFL's purge their older records as time goes on. When an FFL closes out the business he gives his existing logs to the ATF, correct? Completed transfers are kept for 20 years. When I reach that point, I'll purge everything I legally can. FYI, most FFLs never reach that point. 
When you close business, you must send all records to the ATF's Out of Business records division. Quoted:
The log book (A & D = Acquistions & Dispositions) book must be kept for 20 years...... When a business closes, all paperwork needs to be sent to BATFE ..... in ?Atlanta? ... Yup! Mike |
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When you close business, you must send all records to the ATF's Out of Business records division. Don't forget..... there IS no national database for firearm purchases. Legally speaking. Cause we all know that the Out of Business section uses those records for toilet paper. lol... |
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ATF / Out of Business Records Center 244 Needy Road Martinsburg, West Virginia 25405 USA The non-existent gun owners data base even has a non-existent address. I see a couple of Rockefeller,s great grand-kids with Govt. jobs guarding this mountain of shit like it is some kind of Ft. Knox prize of evil gun owner info. Job creation. Although, there is a hell of a lot of paper mills in WV and I could see them selling the paper for recycling.......................after they scan the docs 20 years is a lot more than 7, I need a few FFL's to hang on for a few more years 
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FYI, most FFLs never reach that point.
That is because Old White guys with FFL's who smoke, drink and have PTSD tend not to live into their 90's. From now on I only buy guns from healthy, young females. 
Nah, it's because most guys go into it to "live the dream" and don't get the business side. 1. There is an unwritten rule that you have to have "doesn't play well with others" on at least three childhood report cards. Not playing well with others usually means poor customer service. That doesn't help to keep you in business. 2. 90% of the time, basic long guns are a 10% markup and handguns are 15% markup. NFA and semi military clone firearms are 20% markup. Then there's ammo- unless you're selling something WalMart doesn't sell, most FFL's ammo wholesale costs are more expensive than WalMart retail. This assumes standard pricing and no discounting. I can think of a lot of ways to earn better than 10-20% without the FFL, the paperwork, and accompanying BS. There are also plenty of Internet-only guys who live off of $20.00 (not 20%, a single Jackson note). Hard to compete with that. It's also very hard to justify the time investment when you're making so little money. 3. Risk vs. reward is totally out of whack given the litigious nature of society, the ATF, LE interest, public scrutiny, propensity to attract the wrong people (not on purpose, they just seek you out), etc. If you want to make money in the gun world, develop an accessory. Magpul: Each P-Mag probably costs them about $1.50 each in plastic and for one spring. The injection molds were probably $100,000, but those molds paid for themselves LONG ago. Grip Pod: People laugh about it, but I've met the inventor and reliable sources who know how much profit he made off that project. Folks usually stop laughing when they consider that his PROFIT from the Grip Pod is a few million dollars. Yes, PROFIT- after everybody got paid, all machinery covered, etc. There's a reason Reed Knight himself got involved. Bore Snake: It's a piece of rope attached to a shoestring and a bunch of bristles on one end. How much did that guy make per snake, and how much was he paid when he sold out to Hoppes? And then there's these guys who made an art of selling gun products that make serious shooters laugh. How much money do you think they have in the bank? Bonus thought: FFL sells a hunting rifle for $1,000 at a gun show. At a 10% profit, he earns $100. Another guy sells 250 pieces of beef jerky and 200 cans of soda for a buck each for $450. (That's definitely low given how many people attend these 3-day shows.) His profit margin is 50%, so he earns $225, more than double our FFL friend. And he doesn't have to maintain a FFL, keep a 4473, record in a bound book, worry over FBI trace calls, doesn't have govt/LE/public interest in his business, his legal liability is far lower..... Mike |