Posted: 12/7/2012 7:49:45 AM EDT
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Just saw this and found it interesting:
http://www.armslist.com/posts/703891/wisconsin-rifles-for-sale--beware Be very suspicious of sellers asking you to fill out paperwork to buy a firearm. I know for a fact that in Milwaukee at least, we have undercover ATF agents gathering information on straw buyers in Wisconsin who legally purchase firearms outside of FFL regulations. Undercover, they have identified buyers who occasionally purchase firearms and are getting them to fill out info "for their personal records". They are also asking buyers to give photocopies of driver's licenses. Yes, I realize that this sounds like some crazy conspiracy theory but I work with LEO in Milwaukee and I was shocked to see proof of this. Remember, it is still your LEGAL right in Wisconsin to buy and sell firearms without going through the FFL process, hence Armslist. As a seller you need only have reasonable belief that the buyer is over 21 or 18, not a felon, and a Wisconsin resident. As a buyer, you need only show your driver's license or CCW permit and truthfully declare that you are not a felon. You have no legal obligation to hand over your identification and as a seller you are not obligated to collect or record any information on a sale. I would be very wary of sellers who want you to fill anything out or who want a copy of your license. You are taking the risk of having your information go to the ATF which could present future problems. Follow the laws, and stand up for your rights in Wisconsin to legally buy firearms without ATF interference.
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I don't know why there are many here that are so quick to dismiss this as tinfoil-hattery.
The BATFE has been pulling shady crap like this since I can remember. (If any here need a refresher, there's that whole "Fast and Furious" thing, and then requiring FFL dealers of states next to the border to report multiple purchases, with no legal authority to demand so.) To deny they would ever pull a stunt like this is ignorant, IMO. It's definitely not outside the realm of possibility with these people. Either way, I don't mind showing an ID, CWP, or anything else showing residency or a clean backround. You want copies? Sorry, I'm not in the habit of providing copies of my personal documentation to strangers. |
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you don't need to show your DL or CCW.
Sellers rules; don't like them, don't buy from them. By that same accord, they are not obligated to sell you shit. ETA: Now I'm waiting for someone to go onta armsloist and post " Be cautious about people who don't want to fill out paperwork, show ID, or let you copy their information. MS13 has been heavily searching classfieds in Milwaukee and teh surrounding counties, and buying whatever thay can with no trace to them. Several of these guns ahve already been linked to homicides and home invasions. etc etc so forth" 
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If y'all don't think we're on a list already, just try crossing the border into Canada. Last time I was there the border agent started grilling me about why I felt the need to own guns.  Which reminds me ... i need to grill you about when we are getting together to grill meat.... or drink beer ... or something ..... now that I moved into your back yard |
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If y'all don't think we're on a list already, just try crossing the border into Canada. Last time I was there the border agent started grilling me about why I felt the need to own guns. Which reminds me ... i need to grill you about when we are getting together to grill meat.... or drink beer ... or something ..... now that I moved into your back yard Dude, I just checked. The only thing back there is an empty corn field. 
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| There are many good reasons to verify someones Identity before selling. #1 being it is illegal to privately sell any firearm across state lines. First thing to check is that the buyer is a Wisconsin resident. Second, recording someones identity and address protects YOU, the seller. Say the firearm in used in a crime. The ATF starts a crime trace. They call the manufacturer, the manufacturer tells them they sold it to so and so distributor, so and so distributor tells them they sold it to XYZ dealer, XYZ dealer shows them the 4473 with YOUR name on it. Guess who's door the ATF is knocking on!! You better either have the firearm, have reported it stolen, or have a name and address to send them to. Before I had my FFL if someone wasn't willing to let me record their name and address and do a quick CCAP check, they could go pound sand!! |
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If y'all don't think we're on a list already, just try crossing the border into Canada. Last time I was there the border agent started grilling me about why I felt the need to own guns. You should have told them that when there is a premptive strike against Canada, you will be ready. Honestly though it seems most Canadians just assume we all have guns and are ready to slaughter entire villages at a moments notice. 
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There are many good reasons to verify someones Identity before selling. #1 being it is illegal to privately sell any firearm across state lines. First thing to check is that the buyer is a Wisconsin resident. Second, recording someones identity and address protects YOU, the seller. Say the firearm in used in a crime. The ATF starts a crime trace. They call the manufacturer, the manufacturer tells them they sold it to so and so distributor, so and so distributor tells them they sold it to XYZ dealer, XYZ dealer shows them the 4473 with YOUR name on it. Guess who's door the ATF is knocking on!! You better either have the firearm, have reported it stolen, or have a name and address to send them to. Before I had my FFL if someone wasn't willing to let me record their name and address and do a quick CCAP check, they could go pound sand!! In all of the above situations the end user purchaser bears no responsibility during resale. "I sold it." ...... To who? ....... "A guy with money." "I lost in it a poker game." ...... To who? ....... "The guy that won the pot." Perfectly fine answers that end discussion and bring about zero culpability. Spot checking an ID to make sure that it says Wisconsin and bears an adult-colored background is generally prudent. Asking for the presentation of a CCW license may also be prudent. Demanding that you be permitted to copy and retain all of the purchaser's private identifying data is silly. I'm fine with folks doing whatever they want, so long as they declare it up front. Then the prospective purchaser can agree or decline at their option. Surprising someone with your demands during the sale is super crappy. "A'hem...hem .... we just have a few Standard Forms for you to fill out ....." 
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There are many good reasons to verify someones Identity before selling. #1 being it is illegal to privately sell any firearm across state lines. First thing to check is that the buyer is a Wisconsin resident. Second, recording someones identity and address protects YOU, the seller. Say the firearm in used in a crime. The ATF starts a crime trace. They call the manufacturer, the manufacturer tells them they sold it to so and so distributor, so and so distributor tells them they sold it to XYZ dealer, XYZ dealer shows them the 4473 with YOUR name on it. Guess who's door the ATF is knocking on!! You better either have the firearm, have reported it stolen, or have a name and address to send them to. Before I had my FFL if someone wasn't willing to let me record their name and address and do a quick CCAP check, they could go pound sand!! In all of the above situations the end user purchaser bears no responsibility during resale. "I sold it." ...... To who? ....... "A guy with money." "I lost in it a poker game." ...... To who? ....... "The guy that won the pot." Perfectly fine answers that end discussion and bring about zero culpability. Spot checking an ID to make sure that it says Wisconsin and bears an adult-colored background is generally prudent. Asking for the presentation of a CCW license may also be prudent. Demanding that you be permitted to copy and retain all of the purchaser's private identifying data is silly. I'm fine with folks doing whatever they want, so long as they declare it up front. Then the prospective purchaser can agree or decline at their option. Surprising someone with your demands during the sale is super crappy. "A'hem...hem .... we just have a few Standard Forms for you to fill out ....."
I agree completely. I always informed buyers up front of my terms of sale. While "I sold it" should be a viable answer to the question, it's no guarantee that a few hours, even a few days of your life won't be wasted answering questions in an interrogation room. I'd rather say here's who I sold it to, now piss off! |
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While "I sold it" should be a viable answer to the question, it's no guarantee that a few hours, even a few days of your life won't be wasted answering questions in an interrogation room. I'd rather say here's who I sold it to, now piss off! Not to mention giving some low-life or their family all the more reason to sue you if they were shot with the gun that you sold to someone who you cannot identify. And just to be clear, when I say being sued it doesn't mean going to trial and jury deliberation. I've seen people willing file frivolous lawsuits in hopes of a quick, low-5-figure settlement! |
| A friend works for the local police agency and this was their advice. Get a receipt because they have people who sell things on Craigs list no receipt was issued and then they go in the house and claim the person stole the item and they want it back. No receipt no proof the item was sold person returns item and the seller keeps the cash. It does happen |
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If y'all don't think we're on a list already, just try crossing the border into Canada. Last time I was there the border agent started grilling me about why I felt the need to own guns. Which reminds me ... i need to grill you about when we are getting together to grill meat.... or drink beer ... or something ..... now that I moved into your back yard Dude, I just checked. The only thing back there is an empty corn field. Dude.... its almost the 21st. I built an underground bunker |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There are many good reasons to verify someones Identity before selling. #1 being it is illegal to privately sell any firearm across state lines. First thing to check is that the buyer is a Wisconsin resident. Second, recording someones identity and address protects YOU, the seller. Say the firearm in used in a crime. The ATF starts a crime trace. They call the manufacturer, the manufacturer tells them they sold it to so and so distributor, so and so distributor tells them they sold it to XYZ dealer, XYZ dealer shows them the 4473 with YOUR name on it. Guess who's door the ATF is knocking on!! You better either have the firearm, have reported it stolen, or have a name and address to send them to. Before I had my FFL if someone wasn't willing to let me record their name and address and do a quick CCAP check, they could go pound sand!! In all of the above situations the end user purchaser bears no responsibility during resale. "I sold it." ...... To who? ....... "A guy with money." "I lost in it a poker game." ...... To who? ....... "The guy that won the pot." Perfectly fine answers that end discussion and bring about zero culpability. Spot checking an ID to make sure that it says Wisconsin and bears an adult-colored background is generally prudent. Asking for the presentation of a CCW license may also be prudent. Demanding that you be permitted to copy and retain all of the purchaser's private identifying data is silly. I'm fine with folks doing whatever they want, so long as they declare it up front. Then the prospective purchaser can agree or decline at their option. Surprising someone with your demands during the sale is super crappy. "A'hem...hem .... we just have a few Standard Forms for you to fill out ....." I agree completely. I always informed buyers up front of my terms of sale. While "I sold it" should be a viable answer to the question, it's no guarantee that a few hours, even a few days of your life won't be wasted answering questions in an interrogation room. I'd rather say here's who I sold it to, now piss off! That's everybody's personal choice to make. I don't mind the seller putting restrictions on the sale or wanting a bill of sale, etc. No problem at all, as long as they say that as the condition of the sale in the first place to let the buyers decide for themselves. I'd be pretty pissed if I went to get cash, drove two hours to meet half way and some asshat wanted to go to Kinkos to photocopy my ID, wanted me to fill out forms, or somesuch. It's not like in this day and age, ID theft isn't a problem or anything. What if the SELLER is a criminal selling stolen guns and finds it convenient to start new identities while fencing the guns? I just want to see a WI id for a buy or sell, and not to get creeped out during the purchase or sale. For the right gun, I might let someone copy information down, but I am getting theirs too, probably a photo of their IDs and CCW on my phone.
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A friend works for the local police agency and this was their advice. Get a receipt because they have people who sell things on Craigs list no receipt was issued and then they go in the house and claim the person stole the item and they want it back. No receipt no proof the item was sold person returns item and the seller keeps the cash. It does happen I've seen an episode of Judge Judy where the crooked seller decided to double her price after they closed the deal and claimed the buyer only paid her half of the agreed upon price. I always write up a little bill of sale for anything over $150. Also, always use email when working the details, never the phone (unless you are recording the conversation) Just good CYA. As far as the BATF guys... If they really want your name on a list there's much easier ways to do that. So are these guys giving out some deals? Since I'm sure I'm already on their list I might as well get a deal on a new toy. If it's just a sting operation to root out private sale buyers that have no business owning a gun, then I have no problem with that. There is no right of anonymity when conducting a private sale. If that's your sole objective for doing private sales, I'd say you probably have a well stocked tin-foil closet. |