Posted: 7/10/2011 8:28:16 AM EDT
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So a buddy of mine called me this morning with a very interesting encounter. He was pulled over this morning for speeding, according to the officer. During the course of their conversation, the officer asked him to step out of the car. He did, and when he got out he locked his doors as he usually does. This seemed to draw the officer's ire, and the officer asked if he could search his car. My friend replied no, and the officer gave him the usual "well are you hiding something", to which my friend would either reply "am i being detained" or "i do not give you permission to search my car". The officer told my friend to wait in his car and took my friend's license, assuming he was going to run his license and probably issue a citation.
After a half hour (he said it was 32 minutes to be exact), another squad pulls up with a K9 unit. The officer has my friend step out of the car again and says his K9 unit is going to sniff around the car and if they find anything suspicious, then it will give him just cause to search the car. The dog goes around the car, finds nothing and does nothing (according to my friend), but the officer claims the dog "signaled" at the back right door. So, they search his car, and find nothing. However, they do come across his 1911 in the trunk (unloaded and encased as per law), and they "confiscate" it so they can "check it out and make sure it's not stolen or hasn't been used in a crime". Then the officer gives him his license back (no ticket for speeding), takes his gun, and says if it checks out he can get it back in a few days. Obviously there is a lot about this encounter that is a lot of BS. My friend was wearing dress slacks and a dress shirt (no tie) and drives a very nice clean mercedes. He looks like your usual clean cut business man. My question is, what could be done differently in such a situation like this? The officer says he's not detaining him, yet takes his license and keeps him there for 30 minutes so he can get a K9 unit there. What would you do? What can you do? |
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So a buddy of mine called me this morning with a very interesting encounter. He was pulled over this morning for speeding, according to the officer. During the course of their conversation, the officer asked him to step out of the car. He did, and when he got out he locked his doors as he usually does. This seemed to draw the officer's ire, and the officer asked if he could search his car. My friend replied no, and the officer gave him the usual "well are you hiding something", to which my friend would either reply "am i being detained" or "i do not give you permission to search my car". The officer told my friend to wait in his car and took my friend's license, assuming he was going to run his license and probably issue a citation. After a half hour (he said it was 32 minutes to be exact), another squad pulls up with a K9 unit. The officer has my friend step out of the car again and says his K9 unit is going to sniff around the car and if they find anything suspicious, then it will give him just cause to search the car. The dog goes around the car, finds nothing and does nothing (according to my friend), but the officer claims the dog "signaled" at the back right door. So, they search his car, and find nothing. However, they do come across his 1911 in the truck (unloaded and encased as per law), and they "confiscate" it so they can "check it out and make sure it's not stolen or hasn't been used in a crime". Then the officer gives him his license back (no ticket for speeding), takes his gun, and says if it checks out he can get it back in a few days. Obviously there is a lot about this encounter that is a lot of BS. My friend was wearing dress slacks and a dress shirt (no tie) and drives a very nice clean mercedes. He looks like your usual clean cut business man. My question is, what could be done differently in such a situation like this? The officer says he's not detaining him, yet takes his license and keeps him there for 30 minutes so he can get a K9 unit there. What would you do? What can you do? Looks mean nothing, why would a guy driving a fancy car wearing nice clothes be treated any different than a regular joe. I have learned that when dealing with police it better to be nice and not a smart ass, because they can make you wait until the drug/bomb dogs show up. (Which can be more than 30 min) I'm pretty sure they cannot keep the 1911, a simple call to dispatch will reveal if its stolen or not. 
And since when did Mercedes make trucks? That's new to me. What would I do? Not speed. What dept did this...? |
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I would advise him to contact an attorney. He is being harassed for exercising his right to avoid unreasonable search and seizure. Also, an officer can check on the spot if he is a felon, and should not be allowed to confiscate anything to "check it out".
Sue them into the ground. |
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So a buddy of mine called me this morning with a very interesting encounter. He was pulled over this morning for speeding, according to the officer. During the course of their conversation, the officer asked him to step out of the car. He did, and when he got out he locked his doors as he usually does. This seemed to draw the officer's ire, and the officer asked if he could search his car. My friend replied no, and the officer gave him the usual "well are you hiding something", to which my friend would either reply "am i being detained" or "i do not give you permission to search my car". The officer told my friend to wait in his car and took my friend's license, assuming he was going to run his license and probably issue a citation. After a half hour (he said it was 32 minutes to be exact), another squad pulls up with a K9 unit. The officer has my friend step out of the car again and says his K9 unit is going to sniff around the car and if they find anything suspicious, then it will give him just cause to search the car. The dog goes around the car, finds nothing and does nothing (according to my friend), but the officer claims the dog "signaled" at the back right door. So, they search his car, and find nothing. However, they do come across his 1911 in the truck (unloaded and encased as per law), and they "confiscate" it so they can "check it out and make sure it's not stolen or hasn't been used in a crime". Then the officer gives him his license back (no ticket for speeding), takes his gun, and says if it checks out he can get it back in a few days. Obviously there is a lot about this encounter that is a lot of BS. My friend was wearing dress slacks and a dress shirt (no tie) and drives a very nice clean mercedes. He looks like your usual clean cut business man. My question is, what could be done differently in such a situation like this? The officer says he's not detaining him, yet takes his license and keeps him there for 30 minutes so he can get a K9 unit there. What would you do? What can you do? Looks mean nothing, why would a guy driving a fancy car wearing nice clothes be treated any different than a regular joe. I have learned that when dealing with police it better to be nice and not a smart ass, because they can make you wait until the drug/bomb dogs show up. (Which can be more than 30 min) I'm pretty sure they cannot keep the 1911, a simple call to dispatch will reveal if its stolen or not.
And since when did Mercedes make trucks? That's new to me. What would I do? Not speed. What dept did this...? I merely mentioned what he was wearing and what he looks like as some people seem to want to know that information. It's human nature to profile. Everyone does it, including police. Also, that should be TRUNK not truck. Sorry I'll fix it. And my friend was plenty nice and polite. Not giving permission to search your vehicle isn't "not being nice". Also, he was doing about 4mph over the speed limit. I want to say it was germantown PD but I could be mistaken. |
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I merely mentioned what he was wearing and what he looks like as some people seem to want to know that information. It's human nature to profile. Everyone does it, including police. Also, that should be TRUNK not truck. Sorry I'll fix it. And my friend was plenty nice and polite. Not giving permission to search your vehicle isn't "not being nice". Also, he was doing about 4mph over the speed limit. I want to say it was germantown PD but I could be mistaken. Everybody profiles, I interpreted it as you saying because he was driving a nice car and wearing nice clothes he shouldn't have been stopped. Ah, ok, I was confused about the car then the truck part. Trunk makes much more sense. 
It will say the dept on the ticket or warning he got, along with any other info about the stop. I am pretty sure if they took his pistol he was issued a document with a number on it, but I have never had a LEO take anything from me. When I had my serial numbers checked they called in and with 5 min I was back on my merry way. Not giving permission to search is your right, but going about it the wrong way can tip off some cops to call a dog. ETA- person have a history with the law? |
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Quoted: Not saying anything bad about the OP (don't know you from Adam) but something about this story does not sound right. The police will not seize a firearm without giving some reason and there should be paperwork involved. This. Not calling BS. But you don't have all the facts yet. I do reserve the right to hoist the bs flag in the near future. YMMV.  |
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Not saying anything bad about the OP (don't know you from Adam) but something about this story does not sound right. The police will not seize a firearm without giving some reason and there should be paperwork involved. This. Not calling BS. But you don't have all the facts yet. I do reserve the right to hoist the bs flag in the near future. YMMV.
I think the OP's source is leaving out valuable information. 
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I've had S/N's on firearms run by patrol officers before.
[smartass] There are two amazing devices available nowdays - they're called mobile radios and computers. The radios let the officers talk to their dispatchers, and they can talk back. The dispatchers use the computers to look up the serial numbers in databases, and you know? The computers in the PD talk to other computers that talk to other conmputers in opther PD's and they've stored all the numbers of stolen firearms inside them. From around the state and elsewhere around the country. Nobody has to go look through stacks of file cards - those newfangled computers can do it in a matter of minutes. What's next? Flat TV screens or maybe a phone without a cord? Maybe you could take it with you.  [/smartass]
My checks all lasted less than 4 minutes. Something's not right with that story. |
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Piling on.
Calling in the numbers and running the driver's name to make sure the firearm hasn't been reported stolen and the driver isn't a prohibited person would seem within the bounds of an upset officer. Taking his property without issuing him a property receipt is pure unadulterated BS, and I'd have a lawyer and a call into the officer's superiors by now if that were the case. Interested to know more of what occurred. |
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Not saying anything bad about the OP (don't know you from Adam) but something about this story does not sound right. The police will not seize a firearm without giving some reason and there should be paperwork involved. I texted him and he clarified, he did get paperwork, and he said the cop claimed something about a gun "matching the description" was used in a crime. My friend is married, 1 kid, no prior records. The cop didn't even give him a speeding ticket. And remember, I am trying to give you this story from a 3rd party, so I'm certain there are more details to it, and I may not have everything "exactly" as he told me in his frantic call. But, the point of the story was, what would you do if you found yourself in such a position? Where an officer makes you sit in your car for 30 minutes and you're just sitting there? Obviously if it played out "exactly" as I presented it, it would be time to lawyer up. But again I'm a 3rd party in this, so I can't say I remembered every exact detail, nor that he necessarily told me every exact detail. It was still an interesting situation to say the least I would think. |
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Quoted: Not saying anything bad about the OP (don't know you from Adam) but something about this story does not sound right. The police will not seize a firearm without giving some reason and there should be paperwork involved. They also can't hold someone at the scene of a stop for longer than a reasonable amount of time to get a K9 there, absent other factors. |
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Not saying anything bad about the OP (don't know you from Adam) but something about this story does not sound right. The police will not seize a firearm without giving some reason and there should be paperwork involved. They also can't hold someone at the scene of a stop for longer than a reasonable amount of time to get a K9 there, absent other factors. That's interesting I've had cops make me wait for like 15 minutes before. I thought that was a bit excessive but meh. I was young and dumb back then (haven't been pulled over in over a decade). (knock on wood) |
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Not saying anything bad about the OP (don't know you from Adam) but something about this story does not sound right. The police will not seize a firearm without giving some reason and there should be paperwork involved. They also can't hold someone at the scene of a stop for longer than a reasonable amount of time to get a K9 there, absent other factors. That's interesting I've had cops make me wait for like 15 minutes before. I thought that was a bit excessive but meh. I was young and dumb back then (haven't been pulled over in over a decade). (knock on wood) The key word there is reasonable. I would say that 15 minutes is reasonable. Sometimes dispatch gets really busy and it takes time to even run a registration. |
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he did get paperwork, Well that's a good thing. and he said the cop claimed something about a gun "matching the description" was used in a crime.
Yeah - it shoots bullets, therefore it "matches the description" of pretty much every firearm used in every shooting by handgun everywhere. 
I still think the cop is FOS, which is pretty unusual for me to say. The cop didn't even give him a speeding ticket.
While I doubt any charges will be forthcoming, couldn't that kibosh the PC for the stop? 
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It would be interesting to hear the cop's version of events. I'll wait for that one before drawing any conclusions. Police aren't perfect, but I wonder whether there's a bit more to this story. I'm sure the officer is a member here or someone here knows the guy. It will just take a day or two to get the other side of the story. |
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Quoted: The key word there is reasonable. I would say that 15 minutes is reasonable. Sometimes dispatch gets really busy and it takes time to even run a registration. This. But 15 minutes is about the limit of time I would be willing to detain someone on a normal stop waiting for a dog. |
| seems to me this whole thing could have been avoided if your friend would not have locked his doors while getting out of car. seems like this whole situation. im not defending the LEOs miss doings in other parts of the story but to me that raises a huge red flag to me. the next thing is why not let a leo search your car if your not hiding something. the police are people to and i have noticed in my LEO interactions that if you show respect and not act confrontational it goes a lone way |
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seems to me this whole thing could have been avoided if your friend would not have locked his doors while getting out of car. seems like this whole situation. im not defending the LEOs miss doings in other parts of the story but to me that raises a huge red flag to me. the next thing is why not let a leo search your car if your not hiding something. the police are people to and i have noticed in my LEO interactions that if you show respect and not act confrontational it goes a lone way If he's done nothing wrong, why let the cop search his things? We have a 4th Amendment and what's the point of it if we just give it away when someone asks. There is no reason for a cop to search ANYONE'S property unless he has a warrant or probable cause coupled with exigent circumstances. There is NO good that can come of letting LEO search our things anytime they want to. If a cop comes to your door and wants to look around your house, are you going to let him? |
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seems to me this whole thing could have been avoided if your friend would not have locked his doors while getting out of car. seems like this whole situation. im not defending the LEOs miss doings in other parts of the story but to me that raises a huge red flag to me. the next thing is why not let a leo search your car if your not hiding something. the police are people to and i have noticed in my LEO interactions that if you show respect and not act confrontational it goes a lone way To start, he locked his doors out of habit. In fact, I think his car has like the "touch access" thing where when you get out of the car and close the door and touch the handle it locks the car. That said I have allowed searches, and refused searches before, mainly because I was in a hurry. The police officers I encountered didn't really give me much grief, and I was shortly on my way. Regardless, the whole "if you're not hiding something why not let them search" is just bad form, and inexcusable as a reason for a cop to "suspect" you of anything. It's a constitutional amendment for crying out loud. You can refuse a search for whatever reason you want, and to assume that one who refuses is instantly guilty of hiding something is just wrong. Simply refusing a search is not disrespectful nor is it confrontational. According to him, my friend was polite, courteous, non-confrontational, and was respectful to the LEO. Given his track record and the type of person he is, I'm inclined to believe him. But again I can only go off what he says. |
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seems to me this whole thing could have been avoided if your friend would not have locked his doors while getting out of car. seems like this whole situation. im not defending the LEOs miss doings in other parts of the story but to me that raises a huge red flag to me. the next thing is why not let a leo search your car if your not hiding something. the police are people to and i have noticed in my LEO interactions that if you show respect and not act confrontational it goes a lone way To start, he locked his doors out of habit. In fact, I think his car has like the "touch access" thing where when you get out of the car and close the door and touch the handle it locks the car. That said I have allowed searches, and refused searches before, mainly because I was in a hurry. The police officers I encountered didn't really give me much grief, and I was shortly on my way. Regardless, the whole "if you're not hiding something why not let them search" is just bad form, and inexcusable as a reason for a cop to "suspect" you of anything. It's a constitutional amendment for crying out loud. You can refuse a search for whatever reason you want, and to assume that one who refuses is instantly guilty of hiding something is just wrong. Simply refusing a search is not disrespectful nor is it confrontational. According to him, my friend was polite, courteous, non-confrontational, and was respectful to the LEO. Given his track record and the type of person he is, I'm inclined to believe him. But again I can only go off what he says. Everyone may see it that way, but from a LEO standpoint that may be viewed differently. Little jokes/comments can be taken the wrong way and can get you in hot water. |
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seems to me this whole thing could have been avoided if your friend would not have locked his doors while getting out of car. In reconsidering this thread this occurred to me. While completely within his rights, if it's the first time the cop encountered this his "WTF" alarm probably went off. Not saying it jusitifed the seizure of the pistol, but... Quoted:
If he's done nothing wrong, why let the cop search his things? We have a 4th Amendment and what's the point of it if we just give it away when someone asks. There is no reason for a cop to search ANYONE'S property unless he has a warrant or probable cause coupled with exigent circumstances. There is NO good that can come of letting LEO search our things anytime they want to. If a cop comes to your door and wants to look around your house, are you going to let him? The driver could have simply responded "No, sorry" to a request to search. I think locking the doors was perceived as an obstructive action, whether rightfully or wrongfully so, and may have steered the officer towards a less "hospitable" choice of actions. Still think holding the pistol was dubious at best but will await more complete AAR. |
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Hah I had no idea. I guess when I filled out the paperwork for mine I assumed it went I to some database somewhere. Nope, not supposed to. When the FFL called in for the background check, if it was a handgun, and bought in WI, he called DOJ. The only info given to DOJ is YOUR info... nothing about the handgun you bought. I've listened to at least a hundred of these calls when my buddy had a gun shop, and he never even gave the make or caliber, nor anything else about the gun to DOJ. That info is only on the 4473, which the dealer keeps in his records, and in his bound book that records all his transactions. The FFL sends it nowhere (as long as he stays in business. He must turn over all those 4473s and his record books to ATF if his license is ever dropped or revoked). Betcha if your friend doesn't hire a lawyer to retrieve his 1911, he won't see it for at least 6 months... if ever. Same crap happened to a friend of mine. Every time he inquired about his pistol, he was stonewalled. After about 5-6 months of being fed BS, he called a lawyer... paid him $150, and had his S&W model 19 back in 3 days. |
| Here's a video about what to do when stopped by a cop. Its also a really good idea to have a voice recorder going. video |
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Here's a video about what to do when stopped by a cop. Its also a really good idea to have a voice recorder going. video IANAL but a piece of advice - make sure it's legal in your state to do that. It's not in IL. 
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Here's a video about what to do when stopped by a cop. Its also a really good idea to have a voice recorder going. video IANAL but a piece of advice - make sure it's legal in your state to do that. It's not in IL. Pssst, this is the Wisconsin forum. |
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Here's a video about what to do when stopped by a cop. Its also a really good idea to have a voice recorder going. video That officers situational awareness is whacked. |
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My question is, what could be done differently in such a situation like this? The officer says he's not detaining him, yet takes his license and keeps him there for 30 minutes so he can get a K9 unit there. What would you do? What can you do?
I find with Cops it is best to walk in their shoes while you deal with them. I would answer by saying there is nothing illegal in my vehicle and repeat it. In general it is better to make a statement as opposed to questioning the cop before you have even built any rapport. The authority figure will react to a challenge. Why ask "am I being detained." Yeah, no shit sherlock, you are being detained. Either by a Cop or a serial killer dressed like one. He now perceives a challenge and attitude. You can always bring a challenge and more attitude later but it is hard to take it back once it is out there. Words are like bullets, once they leave your mouth you can't put them back in. I think roles reversed, almost anyone would find locking the door odd. This guy is locking the cops out of his vehicle? His word is enough to do that, yet he locks the door. As a Father I would react the same way to kids in my driveway if my perception was they were trying to keep me out of the car. Once the search failed, the cop is just being a prick. Sore loser. If he does not push back and follow up, that gun is gone. |
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It would be interesting to hear the cop's version of events. I'll wait for that one before drawing any conclusions. Police aren't perfect, but I wonder whether there's a bit more to this story. This. Quoted:
... the point of the story was, what would you do if you found yourself in such a position? Where an officer makes you sit in your car for 30 minutes and you're just sitting there? Obviously if it played out "exactly" as I presented it, it would be time to lawyer up. I would have followed the officer to the PD, where he and my attorney who met us there and the officer's supervisor would have a frank discussion about RAS, PC, and pretext. FTR: No Glenn, you still can't look in my trunk. |
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Making the statement "I have nothing illegal in my car" is beyond idiotic. With the tens of thousands of laws on the books, you are most likely comitting some crime at any instant of your day. Now you've set yourself up for lying or impeding and investigation. Dumb, dumb, dumb. The best course of action is to say simply, "Am I free to go, officer?" in your friendliest voice, followed up by responding to any request for a search with "I do not consent to any searches; am I free to go, officer?"
If most cops are such authoritarians that simply locking your doors (whether a conditioned impulse or an immediate action during a stop to prevent illegal "casual" searches of your car) can set them off, then they all need to find another job. Maybe those LEOs that always cry "officer safety" should look at this a different way: if the car is locked, then you're safer because the "citizen" "subject" "suspect" can't access all the dangerous weapons they have immediate access to in their cars! |
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Making the statement "I have nothing illegal in my car" is beyond idiotic. ! That was my thought when I read it. Why did the officer ask your friend to get out of the car. I've never been asked to get out of the car. Maybe this was discussed and I missed it. |
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Making the statement "I have nothing illegal in my car" is beyond idiotic. With the tens of thousands of laws on the books, you are most likely comitting some crime at any instant of your day. Now you've set yourself up for lying or impeding and investigation. Dumb, dumb, dumb. The best course of action is to say simply, "Am I free to go, officer?" in your friendliest voice, followed up by responding to any request for a search with "I do not consent to any searches; am I free to go, officer?" If most cops are such authoritarians that simply locking your doors (whether a conditioned impulse or an immediate action during a stop to prevent illegal "casual" searches of your car) can set them off, then they all need to find another job. Maybe those LEOs that always cry "officer safety" should look at this a different way: if the car is locked, then you're safer because the "citizen" "subject" "suspect" can't access all the dangerous weapons they have immediate access to in their cars! I should clarify that, you say that when the Cop is asking questions and is in the act of detaining you, not before. I would have asked those questions and made those statements long before I ever got out of my vehicle, but that is me. If there is no obvious to me reason for my being detained or removed from my vehicle, it does not hurt to establish the facts up front. The Cop already knows exactly what you are doing. It is not a lie if it is true. Asking questions to clarify the situation and protect your rights is not impeding an investigation. Who taught you that? You really see impeding in my words and actions? I am not afraid to question authority but you don't provoke people either. Cops are people, you can communicate with them. What are cops looking for in an average vehicle stop beyond laws applying to operation of the vehicle itself? Drugs, alcohol, illegal weapons, warrants, what else? The other 9,996 things do not worry me or keep me up at night, they are easy to deal with. If you have illegal items in your vehicle or on your person and you don't know it, some might say as an adult, that is beyond idiotic. Then again, I think owning a car that locks the doors automatically is idiotic. I don't care how many automatic overrides there are to get back in it. If you get advice from professionals and use it and it works, then it is more then internet BS. In my case BTDT, spent tens of thousands of dollars to defend and keep my rights and I know how to deal with overzealous LEO's and win. None of my guns are sitting in a Police locker and my friends are not asking for free advice on the net. That is what high limit credit cards and lawyers phone numbers are for. This thread covers a lot of ground. We do not have to agree on all things but I can tell you this, it is not like TV. You need to have an an attorney who takes your calls BEFORE the need arises to call them. Cousin Viinie does not cut it and that Cop was triggered by those automatic locks and whatever happened to cause him to remove the driver from the vehicle in the first place. Even if the Cop was just being a prick. |
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Making the statement "I have nothing illegal in my car" is beyond idiotic. With the tens of thousands of laws on the books, you are most likely comitting some crime at any instant of your day. Now you've set yourself up for lying or impeding and investigation. Dumb, dumb, dumb. The best course of action is to say simply, "Am I free to go, officer?" in your friendliest voice, followed up by responding to any request for a search with "I do not consent to any searches; am I free to go, officer?" If most cops are such authoritarians that simply locking your doors (whether a conditioned impulse or an immediate action during a stop to prevent illegal "casual" searches of your car) can set them off, then they all need to find another job. Maybe those LEOs that always cry "officer safety" should look at this a different way: if the car is locked, then you're safer because the "citizen" "subject" "suspect" can't access all the dangerous weapons they have immediate access to in their cars! I should clarify that, you say that when the Cop is asking questions and is in the act of detaining you, not before. I would have asked those questions and made those statements long before I ever got out of my vehicle, but that is me. If there is no obvious to me reason for my being detained or removed from my vehicle, it does not hurt to establish the facts up front. The Cop already knows exactly what you are doing. It is not a lie if it is true. Asking questions to clarify the situation and protect your rights is not impeding an investigation. Who taught you that? You really see impeding in my words and actions? I am not afraid to question authority but you don't provoke people either. Cops are people, you can communicate with them. What are cops looking for in an average vehicle stop beyond laws applying to operation of the vehicle itself? Drugs, alcohol, illegal weapons, warrants, what else? The other 9,996 things do not worry me or keep me up at night, they are easy to deal with. If you have illegal items in your vehicle or on your person and you don't know it, some might say as an adult, that is beyond idiotic. Then again, I think owning a car that locks the doors automatically is idiotic. I don't care how many automatic overrides there are to get back in it. If you get advice from professionals and use it and it works, then it is more then internet BS. In my case BTDT, spent tens of thousands of dollars to defend and keep my rights and I know how to deal with overzealous LEO's and win. None of my guns are sitting in a Police locker and my friends are not asking for free advice on the net. That is what high limit credit cards and lawyers phone numbers are for. This thread covers a lot of ground. We do not have to agree on all things but I can tell you this, it is not like TV. You need to have an an attorney who takes your calls BEFORE the need arises to call them. Cousin Viinie does not cut it and that Cop was triggered by those automatic locks and whatever happened to cause him to remove the driver from the vehicle in the first place. Even if the Cop was just being a prick. He is right though. You really should never say something like "there is nothing illegal in my car". You don't want to put yourself into a statement in which something could happen that contradicts you, otherwise it makes everything else you say seem like it could be a lie. |