Posted: 7/5/2011 7:07:39 PM EDT
| Ok, so, I will apologize now for posting something that has probably been beaten to death on every gun forum there is. I did some searching, and unfortunately I found myself more confused than less. :( I think I'm just having a hard time wading through what is good information vs what is not. I'm trying to figure out what 9mm ammo I should be purchasing for practice at the range, and what to use for personal defense in our house and eventually for CCW. Also, best sources for ammo? It's $25 a box of 100 for the white box winchester rounds at my local wallymart. |
| First off you should practice with your home defense rounds other wise you will not know how they shoot out of your gun. Not all ammo will shoot out of all guns. So go out and buy several different types till you find one that your gun shoots with out failure. As far as ammo to shoot for fun there are lot and lots of different ammo to choose from Remington green box is one Herters from Cabelas is another. Blazer isn't bad from Fleet farm. You can go on line and find a whole slew of others. Try Aim one of the sponsors. The key is to get out and shoot learn your gun and get the muscle memory for shooting and reloading down pat. |
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I researched this subject TO DEATH before I bought my Glock 19 Gen 4.
I came to the conclusion that 124 grain Gold Dots +P OR 124 Grain Federal HST (I'm not sure if they make +P here. If you can find em, great) will work wonderfully. I went with the Gold Dots cause they are MUCH easier to find locally than the HST. I found that Badger Guns carries the GD 124 +P round and I am sure Shooters does too. Cabelas carries the 124 grain normal pressure load which work decently as well. I like using good quality practice ammo. I standardized on the 124 grain American Eagle round for the range. It works well and out of 500+ rounds not a single malfunction. It shoots fairly clean as well. I am probably VERY OCD when it comes to my Glock but I do not like underpowered cheap ammo. The stuff works in my Glock but feels underpowered and inconsistent. As far as shooting your duty ammo often? Always a good idea. BUT I think that shooting duty ammo for practice is a waste of money. Honestly, with a 9mm the recoil is hardly noticeable. I accidently loaded a magazine with my Gold Dots once and did not realize I was shooting the higher pressured rounds until after I emptied my magazine. As always YMMV. Any questions feel free to pm or ask! |
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First off you should practice with your home defense rounds other wise you will not know how they shoot out of your gun. Not all ammo will shoot out of all guns. So go out and buy several different types till you find one that your gun shoots with out failure. As far as ammo to shoot for fun there are lot and lots of different ammo to choose from Remington green box is one Herters from Cabelas is another. Blazer isn't bad from Fleet farm. You can go on line and find a whole slew of others. Try Aim one of the sponsors. The key is to get out and shoot learn your gun and get the muscle memory for shooting and reloading down pat. +1 Test your carry ammo, tho, there is something to be said about a pistol that will "eat anything" (Glohurumphherummck). If you carry a 'pocket rocket' (in my case KelTec PF-9) the difference between shooting my HST and WWB is dramatic, to say the least. As an aside, one way I use up my carry ammo (FED HST 147gr) when I rotate it out is to place random rounds in with my practice ammo along with the dummy rounds. That way, along with the occasional 'misfire' I will get the random "hot round" in the mix. C361 Stan |
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You can also try to find out what the local cops carry, and then just make sure it runs in your gun before carrying it. It's always nice when the DA breaks out the "man-killing exploding dum-dum assassin bullets!" meme to say "well, I am just using what the local PD does..."
That said, I have found some round-nose HP rounds that will lock up my HK, due to the type of rifling, so ALWAYS run it before you carry it. |
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Just reload your own and build the best round for your gun. I wonder how WI will that this? I've read that most people use factory loads for ccw and home defense, sure to prior judgements saying that self-loaded ammo was intended for killing. As if factory defense loads aren't.... just wondering. |
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Just reload your own and build the best round for your gun. I wonder how WI will that this? I've read that most people use factory loads for ccw and home defense, sure to prior judgements saying that self-loaded ammo was intended for killing. As if factory defense loads aren't.... just wondering. I want to know what legal statement recognized or produced by the state says the reloads are made for killing. When I get into a situation where I have to use a firearm to protect myself or my family my defense is "I shot to stop the threat". If I have my target 1911 handy in my house and someone breaks in am I not allowed to use it if the situations arises legally becuase it has my handloads in it? Statements like "reloads are made for killing" are just one of the little things anti-firearm people throw out to disrupt your rights and options in my opinion. |
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In most places, it won't come up unless you tried to make some kind of crazy poison or exploding bullets. A good self defense shoot is a good self defense shoot. The law (normally) does not make big distinctions between "varying levels of lethal force", since the idea is an oxymoron. Force is lethal, or it isn't. However, it has happened. Harold Fish, the famous AZ self defense case, the very anti-gun, anti-CCW DA made a big point about how he carried a 10mm Glock and it was more powerful and deadly than what the police carried (.40 S&W). And in post trial interviews, it did resonate with at least one female juror who said it was a factor in her decision in an interview on one of the TV news shows. IIRC, Mr. Fish had some pretty ineffective counsel, and I don't recall him rebutting how the police carry standardized ammo for training purposes for men/women, different sized hands and bodies, and logistical convenience reasons, and that common self defense wisdom from gun experts is that ALL handguns are marginal stoppers, and you should carry as much as you comfortably can carry and fire, and that a private citizen has none of those concerns the police do. Not counting all the other ways Mr. Fish got screwed, like the fact the "victim" had a violent criminal record, and a large screwdriver in his pocket, with no other ostensible purpose than for use as a weapon, but it was all excluded because Mr. Fish could not have known either fact at the time he shot the man who was assaulting/approaching him over an altercations over threatening behavior from the man's dogs. The case did not hinge on Mr. Fish's caliber choice, but it did hurt him. So while getting hung out to dry by caliber choice or the rounds you used is rare, its not some kind of urban legend either. It is out there. Personally, I feel prosecution based on ammo choice is still so rare as to not be a concern for me, but since it has happened in documented cases, I will not ridicule anyone for worrying about it either. |
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I have some friends in MI that are very paranoid of hand loads for personal protection, so I've not been sure of that. However, I hand load for target and hunting, so I'd prefer to do that for my own CCW gun, as well.
I've loaded Speer Gold Dots and Barnes TAC-XP for my full size 1911 and feel good about both. Both have run great in the 1911, so I'm hoping they'll work well in a .380. |
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Just reload your own and build the best round for your gun. I wonder how WI will that this? I've read that most people use factory loads for ccw and home defense, sure to prior judgements saying that self-loaded ammo was intended for killing. As if factory defense loads aren't.... just wondering. link to cases where this actually happened? |
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The other site has a great sticky in the terminal ballistics sub forum titled "duty loads".
LOTS of good information there. For what it's worth, in my Glock 17 I run Winchester white box for practice, but for home defense I have Winchester 124 gr. bonded. Gold Dots are supposed to be good stuff too. |
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You can also try to find out what the local cops carry, and then just make sure it runs in your gun before carrying it. It's always nice when the DA breaks out the "man-killing exploding dum-dum assassin bullets!" meme to say "well, I am just using what the local PD does..." That said, I have found some round-nose HP rounds that will lock up my HK, due to the type of rifling, so ALWAYS run it before you carry it. just find any PD that uses the round you prefer, and their argument is going to hold no water |
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Both my Glock 9mms (17 & 19) have Tru-Glo TFO sights, and both shot a few inches above POA at 15 yds with every 124gr load I tried. So I tried 115gr Winchester Ranger +P JHPs, and they were dead on for elevation at 15 yds, so that's what I have in the mags. WWB 115s hit at almost the exact same spot, so I can use them for range practice. I was able to pretty much duplicate the WWB performance with handloads too (only about a 15-20fps differance with the same Winchester 115gr bullets), so I now load my own range stuff. But for carry or home defense, the mags are stuffed with the Ranger P+ 115s.
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Lots of good advice been given so far OP.
I too am a fan of gold dot, winchester ranger, and any of the federal HP offerings. If you are on a super tight budget, (sometimes you can find locally) the winchester white box hollow points(box of 50) for about what the super premium cost for a box of 20. What I do is run AT LEAST 100-200 rounds of (a particular)ammo I'm wanting to use for defense, to check for function and point of aim/point of impact............ Then use FMJ ammo for practice/plinking. (I use mostly winchester WB, Rem green box, blazer brass, and have had no ammo related problems) It's a good idea to periodically run some of your defensive ammo to refresh your mind about point of aim/point of impact. Too this will help keep your ammo fresh and rotated. (not that I've ever had any trouble using ammo from semi-long term storage. I use some reg. mil ammo cans with good seals and whatever dessicants I can scrounge up, to store ammo in too. |
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So last night me and the wife went to MW Shooters and had a good time. I fired my sig for the first time, and I think it'll take some getting used to. I think it's the trigger. A lot of my shots pulled right, and I think I'm not used to the harder trigger pull on the sig. I used a box of herter's FMJ and a box of winchester FMJ (whitebox). Had 0 problems with either one. Once I get more comfortable shooting the pistol, I'll work on the self defense rounds and figure out what I want to use. Our experience at MW shooters was great. Very friendly, very knowledgeable, and a really nice indoor range. We had it all to ourselves, which is good anyways as my wife is 2 months pregnant, and we try to limit the amount of lead exposure she gets (using FMJ helps a lot).
My wife did not like the sig at all so we rented her a glock 19 in 9mm. She did great with that. In fact, she kicked my butt. lol |
| Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say that using factory ammo is teh roxorz big !!!!11eleventy. It's just nice if you're able to get inside a prosecutor's decision cycle before you have even been arrested. For instance, I also have a digital voice recorder on at all times when I'm carrying. It's just one more base to cover for when they're reviewing evidence and deciding whether or not it is politically beneficial for them to press charges. Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt 90%+ of DAs give a shit about justice. |
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Just remember, if you go to trial over a self defense shooting, you will very likely have a jury. It would be very easy for the DA to imply that the reloads you used are some kind of "super dooper cop killer bullets, made for nothing but killing people". Even if the judge orders that stricken, do you think the jury will forget it?
IMHO, factory loads are just another way of eliminating liability for you, at least until stand your ground is the norm. Note I said stand your ground, not castle doctrine. IF castle doctrine winds up only meaning your house and/or car, whatcha gonna do if you have to use it in the streets or a store? I seriously doubt you are going to keep separate magazines for castle/non-castle situations. And lets not forget if you go to another state and have to defend yourself... |
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The only reason I won't carry reloads is that I've had a greater percentage of failures with reloads than I have had with factory ammunition. Not many, mind you, but enough to notice. I've never had a failure with factory self defense ammunition, but I've had dud reloads here and there.
"Was it too humid where I stored these primers?" is not the last though I want to have before drawing to defend myself. |
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Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say that using factory ammo is teh roxorz big !!!!11eleventy. It's just nice if you're able to get inside a prosecutor's decision cycle before you have even been arrested. For instance, I also have a digital voice recorder on at all times when I'm carrying. It's just one more base to cover for when they're reviewing evidence and deciding whether or not it is politically beneficial for them to press charges. Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt 90%+ of DAs give a shit about justice. I'll ask again, since my first time wasn't replied to: Could you link of any information/case on when this has happened to someone who had to use deadly force, and were using reloads? |
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I use Remington UMC 9mm for fun, they come in 250 round boxes they are very occasionally on sale. I also buy Winchester white box the 100 round value pack (fun fact, a few years ago, you could by a box of it for 11 bucks not 25).
I also use Speer Gold Dots for my purpose ammo. I once heard that you should shoot 250 rounds of your purpose ammo through your gun before trusting said ammo/gun combination. It may cost alot, but I am sure that gold dots will work in my unique glock 17. edit: I don't know where you live but the Farm and Fleet near me will have ammo on sale pretty often. It seems you need to go right away or they are out however. |
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Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say that using factory ammo is teh roxorz big !!!!11eleventy. It's just nice if you're able to get inside a prosecutor's decision cycle before you have even been arrested. For instance, I also have a digital voice recorder on at all times when I'm carrying. It's just one more base to cover for when they're reviewing evidence and deciding whether or not it is politically beneficial for them to press charges. Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt 90%+ of DAs give a shit about justice. I'll ask again, since my first time wasn't replied to: Could you link of any information/case on when this has happened to someone who had to use deadly force, and were using reloads? Please reread my answer where I directly answered your question. |
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Short of Dr Fackler chiming in.
This link should answer the reload question: Link As for ammunition, I think Bank Miller said it best: "shot placement is paramount". The factors that effect that are reliability and accuracy. Both can be ensured to a higher level with factory ball ammunition sans the weapons platform. That being said, being on an evaluation board (creates after actions reports for shootings), 26 incidents in 6 months with ball handgun ammunition. All that were fatal for the target included correct shot placement to vitals (occular box and tin can alley) with an average expenditure of 2.5 rounds (a one shot stop could not be determined with multiple shot encounters, even though the likeliness was highly probable), this also does not include the second shot being placed through the primary/secondary wound channel because we did not have the technology in county to determine that. IMHO everyone is understandably trying to stack their decks with majic bullets, but forget the price there of. So I go factory ball unless the mfr (like Seecamp) says different or Magsafe and or/Glaser for special application ammunition (wheel guns, nutcrackers, etc). Hope this helps V OUT |
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Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say that using factory ammo is teh roxorz big !!!!11eleventy. It's just nice if you're able to get inside a prosecutor's decision cycle before you have even been arrested. For instance, I also have a digital voice recorder on at all times when I'm carrying. It's just one more base to cover for when they're reviewing evidence and deciding whether or not it is politically beneficial for them to press charges. Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt 90%+ of DAs give a shit about justice. I'll ask again, since my first time wasn't replied to: Could you link of any information/case on when this has happened to someone who had to use deadly force, and were using reloads? Please reread my answer where I directly answered your question.  what?
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Just to be clear, I'm not trying to say that using factory ammo is teh roxorz big !!!!11eleventy. It's just nice if you're able to get inside a prosecutor's decision cycle before you have even been arrested. For instance, I also have a digital voice recorder on at all times when I'm carrying. It's just one more base to cover for when they're reviewing evidence and deciding whether or not it is politically beneficial for them to press charges. Call me a cynic, but I seriously doubt 90%+ of DAs give a shit about justice. uh....where exactly does that give an example of someone using reloads and having had to deal with a D.A. going after them? |
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Quoted: Short of Dr Fackler chiming in. This link should answer the reload question: Link As for ammunition, I think Bank Miller said it best: "shot placement is paramount". The factors that effect that are reliability and accuracy. Both can be ensured to a higher level with factory ball ammunition sans the weapons platform. That being said, being on an evaluation board (creates after actions reports for shootings), 26 incidents in 6 months with ball handgun ammunition. All that were fatal for the target included correct shot placement to vitals (occular box and tin can alley) with an average expenditure of 2.5 rounds (a one shot stop could not be determined with multiple shot encounters, even though the likeliness was highly probable), this also does not include the second shot being placed through the primary/secondary wound channel because we did not have the technology in county to determine that. IMHO everyone is understandably trying to stack their decks with majic bullets, but forget the price there of. So I go factory ball unless the mfr (like Seecamp) says different or Magsafe and or/Glaser for special application ammunition (wheel guns, nutcrackers, etc). Hope this helps V OUT Yep, imagine a bowling pin shape centered on the aggressor's head and chest. The small knob on top in the center of the head, and the neck along the neck, and the wider body of the pin over the sternum. That's where those fast lead thingys that come out of the gun need to go.
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Short of Dr Fackler chiming in. This link should answer the reload question: Link As for ammunition, I think Bank Miller said it best: "shot placement is paramount". The factors that effect that are reliability and accuracy. Both can be ensured to a higher level with factory ball ammunition sans the weapons platform. That being said, being on an evaluation board (creates after actions reports for shootings), 26 incidents in 6 months with ball handgun ammunition. All that were fatal for the target included correct shot placement to vitals (occular box and tin can alley) with an average expenditure of 2.5 rounds (a one shot stop could not be determined with multiple shot encounters, even though the likeliness was highly probable), this also does not include the second shot being placed through the primary/secondary wound channel because we did not have the technology in county to determine that. IMHO everyone is understandably trying to stack their decks with majic bullets, but forget the price there of. So I go factory ball unless the mfr (like Seecamp) says different or Magsafe and or/Glaser for special application ammunition (wheel guns, nutcrackers, etc). Hope this helps V OUT Yep, imagine a bowling pin shape centered on the aggressor's head and chest. The small knob on top in the center of the head, and the neck along the neck, and the wider body of the pin over the sternum. That's where those fast lead thingys that come out of the gun need to go. While I think bullet selection is important. Bullet placement is by far the key to stopping a threat. |