Quoted:
meh. they don't really carry much for the evil black rifle anyway.

ETA: isn't badger in west milwaukee anyway? wouldn't milwaukee cops be out of their turf?

Quoted:


FWIW, they've got more EBRs than you can shake a stick at right now.

The store itself is in West Milwaukee.  Portions of their parking lot and the street area itself are in Milwaukee.

As for Badger doing this, GOOD.  Perhaps it'll start to drive a wedge between the liberal monolith that is Milwaukee city government and the black community.  That - in and of itself - is a good reason to drop a few dollars there!

Mike

Quoted:


FWIW, they've got more EBRs than you can shake a stick at right now.

The store itself is in West Milwaukee.  Portions of their parking lot and the street area itself are in Milwaukee.

As for Badger doing this, GOOD.  Perhaps it'll start to drive a wedge between the liberal monolith that is Milwaukee city government and the black community.  That - in and of itself - is a good reason to drop a few dollars there!

Mike

Quoted:


Not in my opinion.

Quoted:



Just to play Devil's Advocate here; Are you saying the store should be more selective, or biased on who they sell guns to? Wouldn't that then become discriminatory? I would imagine that being in that location a majority of their business comes from certain types of people. How is the store supposed to know they are selling a firearm to a third party member who then intends on reselling said firearm to an individual for malicious intent? Isn't the fundamental principle of free market capitalism the ability to sell and buy at free will without restrictions? Why should the store and/or their patrons be subjected to harassment based on who the clientele is considering all parties involved are within the law?

Also, with the cops pulling people over and targeting them just because they left a certain store be considered profiling, racial profiling, or harassment? Wouldn't that be the same as them setting up shop in front of a bar pulling over patrons just to find a DWI charge? Imagine how many more drunks we could get off the roadways if this state allowed that along with DWI Checkpoints.

Carl

PS...I'm in favor of DWI Checkpoints.

Quoted:



Just to play Devil's Advocate here; Are you saying the store should be more selective, or biased on who they sell guns to? Wouldn't that then become discriminatory? I would imagine that being in that location a majority of their business comes from certain types of people. How is the store supposed to know they are selling a firearm to a third party member who then intends on reselling said firearm to an individual for malicious intent? Isn't the fundamental principle of free market capitalism the ability to sell and buy at free will without restrictions? Why should the store and/or their patrons be subjected to harassment based on who the clientele is considering all parties involved are within the law?

Also, with the cops pulling people over and targeting them just because they left a certain store be considered profiling, racial profiling, or harassment? Wouldn't that be the same as them setting up shop in front of a bar pulling over patrons just to find a DWI charge? Imagine how many more drunks we could get off the roadways if this state allowed that along with DWI Checkpoints.

Carl

PS...I'm in favor of DWI Checkpoints.

Quoted:
At this point, with this many years of Badger being one of the top stores in the nation for selling firearms that are recovered at crime scenes (no, we are overwhelmingly not talking about self defense situations) combined with their ongoing attitude exhibited: my sympathy level is pretty low.

Quoted:
Again guys, I said I was playing Devil's Advocate. I didn't mean anything personal by it.

I did not know they were skirting the laws to their own benefit.

If they are in fact breaking the laws why haven't they been shut down?

Carl

Quoted:
Has Badger commited a crime?  With the ATF raiding shops for the most innane of paperwork errors, how can they be turning a blind eye to this den of iniquity?  I bet they keep it pretty tight on the legal front.
What is the legal standard for an 'obvious straw purchase'?
Are there any statistics compiled on what local car dealers sold automobiles used to commit/assit in a felony?
Can we get some more info on those guns sold?  Were any stolen from legal owners?  Were any used by the person who bought it to commit their first crime- meaning that the sale was not straw. etc., and legal at the time of purchase?   Do we need to start hiring phychics to stop the sale of budding criminals?  
What kind of crimes were commited with these guns?  The implication is that every one was used to kill a cop or an elderly woman walking to church.  Any chance some of the crimes were simple possesion crimes because the gun laws in WI are a little 'overbearing'?
If I buy a gun (no felonies on my record) from this store legally, and then go out and kill 50 cops with it- is the gun store to blame?  At what point do we place ALL the blame on the animals who do bad things, not the tool they use to do it and the business that sold the tool?
How long would it take for an ACLU lawyer to jump on the $$$ that would come from the 'discrimination' case when they turn away the wrong customer.
Hell, I should go in there all gangster blinged out with pants hanging around my knees, then have my wife ask the questions (she knows very little about guns, call shotguns rifles, etc.), then pray they try to turn me away.  Me and some shady lawyer would have a pass to print money.
Why isn't there a big red 'F' on a felon's DL?  That would make it easy.  Beter to have the small business owner risk losing his livelyhood by making them enforce your laws.  What if the owner just wants to sell guns?  Can you make that easier for him?
I was a bouncer in Ozaukee County when they started changing the background color of DL photos for over/under 21.  Helped tremendously.  If I remember correctly, that suggestion came from a tavern owner, tired of being harrassed because he wasn't good enough at ferreting out fake IDs.  So there is a precedence for that sort of thing.  You know, helping business owners when you ask them to do your job of enforcing the law.
Our 'guns are evil and deadly' culture is the problem.  The only thing to do in these crimes is to make sure those commiting the crime are harshly punished, go ahead and tack on time for using the gun in the commision of a crime.  Don't punish the store that sold it.
Nowhere in any of this drivel is the point that the guns themselves ddin't rise up by magic and start robbing people.  Criminal savages used them as a tool to do something bad.  Go ahead and use the gun to shoot the criminal and then sell it back to a new, crime-free owner.
More/less guns will never = more/less crime.
This is bad police work and really bad journalism.  
A critically thinking 10 year-old would come away from that article with a lot of questions.  I can't believe the J/S is still i business.

Quoted:
Hell, I should go in there all gangster blinged out with pants hanging around my knees, then have my wife ask the questions (she knows very little about guns, call shotguns rifles, etc.), then pray they try to turn me away.  Me and some shady lawyer would have a pass to print money.

Quoted:
Too bad we didn't hear of this earlier in the city's undercover investigation. We could have done a few experiments to see how they (city and Badger) responded. Get a few people to dress "ghetto" and drive up in a "ghetto cruiser" and see how both parties respond. I guarantee it's profiling to the fullest.

Quoted:

Just to play Devil's Advocate here; Are you saying the store should be more selective, or biased on who they sell guns to? Wouldn't that then become discriminatory? I would imagine that being in that location a majority of their business comes from certain types of people. How is the store supposed to know they are selling a firearm to a third party member who then intends on reselling said firearm to an individual for malicious intent? Isn't the fundamental principle of free market capitalism the ability to sell and buy at free will without restrictions? Why should the store and/or their patrons be subjected to harassment based on who the clientele is considering all parties involved are within the law?

Quoted:
Has Badger commited a crime?

Quoted:
Just google "badger outdoors illegal" and you'll get scores of articles about guns that badger sells being recovered in affiliation with felonies.  In fact, last I heard, they lead the nation in guns sold ending up in felonies.

Now, are they doing anything wrong?  Well, so far, they seem to be in compliance with the letter of the law.  On the other hand: it is pretty ridiculous to take what their approach appears to be: denial.  Namely the hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil.  It's sad that they are choosing to simply throw on the blinders and apparently fight efforts to curve the crimes that are committed at their store (straw man purchases) let alone curve the violent crime that many of their products become involved in.

At this point, with this many years of Badger being one of the top stores in the nation for selling firearms that are recovered at crime scenes (no, we are overwhelmingly not talking about self defense situations) combined with their ongoing attitude exhibited: my sympathy level is pretty low.

Quoted:


If Badger was doing anything legally questionable, much less illegal, ATF would've been all over them a long time ago.  FFL holders who commit illegal acts AND who are well-known in the community-at-large don't stay in business.



FWIW, I also think that it's time we consider all of these so-called "crime guns" getting traced.  "There are lies, damned lies, and statiatics."

First matter: What constitutes a "crime gun?"  Is this a firearm that has turned up in a crime or a firearm that gets traced?

If it's ONLY a firearm that turns up in a crime, does this count violent crimes or non-violent crimes?  Furthermore, was the firearm actually used in the commission of that crime?  For example, let's say that we've got a non-violent tax evader who gets raided, cuffed, etc.  He's nailed for a felony.  There's a double barrel fudd-grade shotgun in the basement.  Does this gun count as a crime gun?  Or let's say that a deer hunter gets pulled over for speeding.  He's got an unloaded and encased handgun in the trunk.  (He gave permission to search for whatever reason.)  Is this a crime gun?  Or let's say that some asshole hits his wife during an argument.  The police come and arrest the guy.  He's got a rifle in the closet.  It's confiscated.  Is this a crime gun?

If it's only traces, let's discuss Milwaukee Police Department's own internal policy of tracing every gun that they encounter during an investigation.  Note that this policy is NOT shared by most other departments across the nation.  Is it possible that Badger's level of traces might be higher than normal because the number of traces are higher than normal?

Second matter: The lack of gun shops.  Head down to where I used to live, Arizona, and you can't throw a rock without hitting a FFL–– and we're not counting big box places that just happen to have a firearms section.  There are plenty of gun shops to hit.  So, when a firearm is used in a crime, things are pretty spread out between all of the shops.  Now come to Milwaukee.  We've - again, not counting big box shops - really only got two major gun shops in the metro Milwaukee area.  This means that the traces are going to be divided up between these two shops versus over many shops–– this leads to higher numbers per shop.  In addition, one of the shops, the Shooter's Shop, is generally overpriced.  The other, Badger, has much better prices.  Good and bad actors alike prefer to pay less, so Badger is going to be more popular with all concerned.  More traces to Badger as a result.  Toss in its location (closer to crappier areas than the Shooter's Shop) and that's even more traces for Badger due to geography.

Put both of these matters together - how we define a "crime gun" and/or a trace with the MPD's inane internal policy to trace everything, the relatively low number of gun stores, the high prices in one compared with the lower prices in the other, and geographic location issue - and suddenly Badger's numbers don't seem as "amazing" as the media would have us believe.

Mike

Quoted:
You were wondering about law on the straw purchase bit?

18 U.S.C. sec. 922(a)(6): knowingly making a false statement to a firearms dealer in the acquisition of a firearm which is likely to deceive the dealer as to the lawfulness of the transaction. United States v. Petitjean, 883 F.2d 1341, 1345 (7th Cir. 1989). When a legally eligible purchaser represents that he is the purchaser of a firearm when, in fact, he is the "straw purchaser" for another who is legally ineligible, the purchaser violates sec. 922(a)(6). United States v. Howell, 37 F.3d 1197, 1202 (7th Cir. 1994).

And if the answer is: well, they are closer to high crime neighborhoods so naturally they may come into contact with a high proportion of criminals, then all the more reason to re-evaluate how and with whom you conduct business.

Quoted:



Well, within 20 minute drive of downtown...

Badger Guns
Shooters Shop
Gander Mountain (Waukesha)
Gander Mountain (Germantown)
Dunhams (Northridge) (not sure if they even sell handguns?)
Dunhams (Brookfield)
Dunhams (West Allis)
Ace Hardware (Oostberg)
Sportsmans (out of business)(West Bend)
Sportsmans (out of business)(New Berlin)

And this ontop of gunshows, pawnshops, gunbroker, autionarms, gunsamerica, numerous boards, private FFLs, private sales, etc.  And I'm sure I am missing some.


There's no reason why one store should account for such a staggeringly large share of virtually all the negative gun trace statistics.  

And if the answer is: well, they are closer to high crime neighborhoods so naturally they may come into contact with a high proportion of criminals, then all the more reason to re-evaluate how and with whom you conduct business.

Quoted:


There isn't one law-abiding citizen in the general area who might want a gun to defend themselves from those who blatantly disregard the law?

Do you hold the criminal responsible at all for the actions they commit with a gun?  

What percentage of the responsility should every player i nthe whole mess earn?

Is it 50% the criminal's fault?  50% the gun shop?  More/less?  What about the weapon itself, surely that's good for at least 25%  What about the criminal's lack of Ivy League education, can we add another 50%?  Bad parents, at least 25%.  Grew up in poverty, another 15%.  If we keep going we can get the perp's original 50% down to like 1% easy.  BLAME EVERYBODY!  

I see the criminal as 100% responsible for the crimes they commit, I choose not to see any other contributing factor.  

Quoted:



I am willing to bet its because of their inventory and prices. As others have previously stated, they themselves once shopped there due to prices and availability of certain types of firearms (most likely handguns and EBRs). When's the last time any sane person bought a firearm from Gander Mountain and/or how large of a selection does GM have of handguns and EBRs in stock? And two other places on your list are no longer in business (not sure how long ago the went out of business). I've only been in one Dunhams and their gun selection rivals that of a small Mom and Pop gun shop with no handguns.

Quoted:

Don't you think the store deserves some harsh scrutiny?

Quoted:


Multiple hit-jobs by the Journal-Sentinel, stings by MPD, and ATF oversight aren't scrutiny?

If Badger was actually doing something illegal, they'd have been long since shut down and the owners would be in jail.  Yet they're still around, and they've been around for over two decades.

So either a) local, state, and federal law enforcement is allowing a rogue dealer to continue doing business or b) the media is making shit up again.

Can't speak for you, but my money's on b.

Mike

Quoted:


Thank you.  

Neoinarien, your selection of stores and websites attempts to draw multiple grossly and completely invalid comparissons.

1.  Big box stores are generally not directly comparable to dedicated gun stores.  I specifically excluded big box stores from my original post and made note that I completely excluded big box stores from the comparisson.  The reason I did this is because big box stores which sell firearms generally:

a) do not attract as many scumbags as a dedicated gun shops owing to their higher prices;
b) have a lower selection of EBRs and handguns;
c) are hidden to scumbags because many scumbags aren't even bright enough to know that such stores even stock firearms in the first place.

2.  Your geographic boundaries are far too broad and create an invalid comparisson to stores closer to Milwaukee.  Scumbags generally don't take "long" (to them) road trips to visit the Dunhams in Brookfield, the Gander Mountain in Germantown, or (I can't believe you even listed this as a comparable) the ACE HARDWARE IN OOSTBURG.  Give me a break, the ACE HARDWARE IN OOSTBURG is directly comparable to a dedicated multi-line gun shop within 5 miles of ghetto Milwaukee??!  

3.  GunBroker, AuctionArms, GunsAmerica, etc., are completely and utterly invalid as comparables because they do NOT sell firearms.  They only LIST firearms for people to sell.  They're nothing but a glorified broker.  They do NOT have a FFL, nor are they required to have one under Federal Law because they never come into possession of the firearm in the first place.  So how can they have traces if they don't even sell firearms or possess firearms that third parties list on their sites?

4.  Small FFLs, like me, generally do the volume of sales in one year that Badger does in one week.  How can you directly compare a huge FFL who does 52x the amount of business to a kitchen table guy?  Furthermore, it's invalid to attempt to compare a business that is totally open to the public to somebody who literally welcomes individuals into their home or into a small private office for a sale here and there.  Which one, by its very nature, is far more likely to have bad actors walk in during business hours?  Which one really doesn't even have true business hours (except as mandated by ATF for purposes of scheduling compliance audits) in the first place?

5.  You're attempting to equate private sellers WHO AREN'T EVEN IN THE BUSINESS OF SELLING FIREARMS with one of the largest gun STORES in the state??!   Furthermore, have you considered that a private transfer AFTER BADGER (or ANY FFL) SELLS THE FIREARM CAN'T BE CONTROLLED BY BADGER (or by ANY other FFL)?  Yet suddenly it's Badger's fault if a legit person buys a gun, sells it to some fellow, that fellow loses it in a burglary, and later that burglar murders somebody with that gun?

You ought to consider seeking employment with the Journal-Sentinel; the sort of logic, invalid comparissons, and general ignorance about how the firearms industry actually operates would fit in perfectly with their editorial board.

Mike

Quoted:
What's the percentage of guns Badger sells over Shooters?

I would suspect by the law of averages that Badger sells proportionality more, thus a high likelihood of having more firearms used in crimes. The article also brings to question the statistics that were used and who obtained them. We all know how stats can be skewed to show a specific outcome.

What more can a store do above following the law. I would assume gun shops and the selling of firearms are more strictly regulated than say bars/convenience stores selling booze. How many accidents or deaths are there a year that are attributed to underage drinking? How can the state go after a store and harass their patrons whom buy alcohol by the assumption that they are going to give it to a minority or someone who is a Parolee? They already ID everyone. With certain Conditions of Releases it is stipulated that the Parolee is not to consume alcohol. Is it up to the store selling alcohol to run a background check on every shady looking character to ensure they aren't a parolee? Lets say that said parolee gets drunk from the alcohol and kills someone or commits another crime while under the influence. According to your reasoning, the store that sold the parolee the alcohol is at fault. How is that logical reasoning?

Carl

Quoted:


So you think those numbers cited are 100% made up huh?

I guess those officers weren't shot back in June, just figments of everyone's imagination?  

Next, I'm guessing you'll tell me who detonated the bombs to bring down the twin towers, eh?

Quoted:

First off, I was responding to hackl, not prebans.

Next, I was not talking about stores on immediately available to downtown and/or the "scumbags" as you say it.

Finally, I think you created a false situation.  The question you are asking and the question that I am asking are two separate questions.  

You're asking the question (as best I can tell): what stores are available to the criminally inclined.

I'm asking the questions of what stores sell guns (and specifically, within about 20 minutes or so of Milwaukee).  


The reason why I go with my question instead of yours is that my questions shows that not all stores have guns that turn out high rates of guns traced to crimes.  In fact, Badger Guns appears to be the only one (the article said something about 33% of all crime guns traced back to Badger, with Shooters Shop being 3%).  If you have one store that accounts for a grossly disproportionately large percentage of crime guns, with the second place store nearly 11 times lower, don't you think there is something wrong with the situation?  Don't you think the store, after decades of leading the nation in the sales of crime guns, bears at least some of the responsibility for their sales?

First matter, this is a public forum. You're spouting talking points that can only come from somebody who has NO IDEA how the firearms industry and the laws surrounding the industry work. That'd be fine by itself, but you're advocating for harsh treatment based upon your incorrect views of how things actually operate. Thus, you're going to earn a rebuke. If you don't like this, may I suggest learning how things actually work in the real world of the firearms industry prior to spouting nonsense as justification for going after anybody or anything?

Second and third matter, trying to compare stores farther out than Badger to the scumbags (and yes, criminals who misuse firearms ARE scumbags who NEED to be incarcerated and kept off of the streets) is a faulty comparisson. If you want to compare apples, you compare apples to apples. Not only is this a proper comparisson, but it also aids in determining what changes need to be made to rectify a situation. Your question, while germaine to other discussions, doesn't help to compare Badger to places in the same area with the same circumstances that may have done something to attract less scumbags. More simply, I sincerely doubt that the Ace Hardware in Oostburg encounters the same challenges and difficulties of the Shooter's Shop, Badger, or the now-shuttered Buckhorn Guns.

Now, speaking to your last paragraph, you may have ignored a few things that I said earlier.

1. Let's have a clear definition of what constitutes a "crime gun." I'm going to hazard that even we can agree that a hunter caught poaching deer with a Badger-bought rifle is way different than a kid shooting two cops with a gun he bought from a schmuck who originally purchased the gun from Badger. Yet these two are considered the same with a trace–– a crime trace is a crime trace.

2. Next, how many of those traces wouldn't have happened if it wasn't MPD's policy to trace every firearm that they encounter like many other PDs across the nation?

3. Is it reasonable to believe that if there are only two major shops in an area, that the one closest to the scumbags who has FAR lower prices will sell more guns and thus get more traces?

Consider these factors together and I suspect that Badger's TRUE so-called "crime gun" purchases - defined as where they directly sold a firearm to a criminal and that firearm is misused - are actually pretty low.

One other matter. How do you explain all of this in light of the requirement for a NICS check for all purchasers for long guns and the state background check for all handgun purchases? We all know that ANY FFL who violates these laws is headed for a loss of license and a loss of freedom (aka a felony with prison time). Given that Badger Guns & Ammo is oh-so-notorious and yet still in business, either a) the government is asleep and letting Badger run rampant over local, state, and federal law or b) Badger is following the law and is selling to people who come up fine on background checks.

If it's a, we've got a far greater problem than anything we've discussed here. Further, if it was a, I'd agree with your responsibility issue. As a FFL/SOT and knowing how we're watched, I can assure you that it's NOT a. That leaves b. If it's b, Badger bears ZERO responsibility because it is following the law and conducting state and federally mandated background checks in accordance with the law.

But then the question remains of firearms getting into the wrong hands. Do you suggest a ban on private sales? Perhaps mandatory storage requirements? Gun owner licensing?

Mike

Quoted:
First, let me state that I have no love for Badger Outdoors.

Second, no one seems to have acknowledged that every gun sold at Badger goes through NICS or the WI DOJ for the person that checks the box that says "I am the ACTUAL buyer of the firearm".

Third, it seems that MPD is stretching the definition of RAS to include black folks coming from a gun store equating to "the recent commission of a crime, or a crime about to be committed".

Again, I have no love for Badger, but based on their sign I might just have to start patronizing them.  It seems they are concerned with their clientele's 4th Amendment rights as much as they are their rights protected by the 2nd.

Good for them.  WE might do well to remember that they also have the 1st Amendment right to put up a sign.

Cops don't have an easy job.  I understand this very well (and truly appreciate their sacrifice).  That said, I think it's a shame some of them can't comprehend that their job is supposed to be hard. If MPD can't play by the rules (or wants to bend them just a bit - only this one time - yada yada) in the name of public safety, then they deserve the derision the sign brings.

Quoted:

re. my knowledge of the law
Dear Lord.  Contrary to your assertions I do understand how criminal law works (that's what this is though I do suspect that certain aspects of the situation may be tortious, but I am not a torts expert).  I have no idea what your background with the law is, etc.  However, can we please leave the accusations and taunting to the side? (your comment about how I have "NO IDEA"  how criminal law works as it pertains to false purchases, felon in possession, etc, earning a "rebuke", etc) edit: I don't really know how to gauge my knowledge of the firearm's industry compared to others.  I am not an industry "insider" nor have I ever worked within the industry.  On the other hand, I wouldn't consider myself a rookie or disinterested third party.

re. "crime guns"
I would roughly agree with your definition.  I'd point out that many of the DNR statutes are not criminal in nature.  I would broadly classify a "crime gun" as a firearm found in possession of a felon or another individual prohibited as an operation of law from possessing a firearm, a firearm used in connection with a crime illegally (as opposed to one used in defense of a crime).  


re. stores, apples-to-apples
Yes!  I completely agree that these stores face different challenges.   But you're starting with a presupposition that excuses Badger from the numbers at hand.  Namely, because of the increased challenges they face due to their location that, well, of course more crime guns will be traced to them (true...) and that's perfectly OK but that's not their fault.  I would agree to a point.


re. MPD tracing
I see this point as nearly moot.  First off, I do not have any real knowledge of the practices of PD's outside of Wisconsin.  But I am less concerned about comparing Badger to some shop in LA as I am comparing Badger to Shooters, etc. Shooter Shop is simply another few minutes down the highway, then drive 5 minutes south.


re. closer shop with lower prices
I would assume this would play a role in more people going there.  I would also assume, given the sharp disparity between first place in crime gun traces and second (Badger to Shooter), that there is more to the picture than these facts alone which appear to be the only ones that you are prepared to acknowledge.  


re. Badger has "ZERO responsibility"
So as long as someone follows the letter of the law, one has zero responsibility?  So if there are obvious straw purchases going down and the store decides to just let it happen (I am NOT saying this is what happening, it's just a hypothetical) under the notion that as long as the "purchaser" passes background check and they say it's for them, the store's responsibility stops there?  From what you said, you would answer yes.  


re. facts, who is being investigated
These are the general facts: we have a store that appears to be complying with the letter of the law (a fact I have stated many times now) in their sales of firearms.  We also have the same store whose product is heavily involved in crime, often violent and deadly crime.  In fact their product is eleven times more likely to be involved in crime than the next closest competitor.  We do know there is an element of a criminal clientele (certainly not everyone).  

Are you saying the clientele, in an effort to investigate crimes and save lives, should not be looked at legally by the police?



bottom line, where I think we diverge

Here's where I think your arguments jump from the tracks (correct me if I misunderstand your position).

Your side (for lack of a better term) seems to be fine with saying "as long as the letter of the law is followed, everything is fine."  Well, my response would be, cognizant of the above facts and that they may be far more aggravated than what I just outlined, "Then you don't mind the police doing what they are doing, so long as it is legal.  After all, as long as the letter of the law is followed I thought you said it was fine."  

So I guess I don't understand what your side's problem is?  If we play by your rules, the follow the literal reading of the law and I don't have  a problem, then you should not have a problem with what the police are doing.  And if you do, then it's a double standard.  

Quoted:


100% agreed about the civil liberties issues here. but i think you already know we are on the same page there...

i guess the problem i have with the shop is that numerous people, including off duty law enforcement personal, have witnessed obvious straw sales there. some common sense could be used by the staff of the store. a sign right as you walk in the door that states, "we reserve the right to....", would do well.  

as to the issue that badger hasn't broken any laws... true. the letter of the law has been follow. does that mean decisions to sell to obvious straw buyers was ethical? i guess that depends on your ethics. the bankers and politicians that have ruined our economy didn't break any laws, but was it ethical?

just my 2 cents. ready for my written berating!

Quoted:


Ethics are not law and law is not ethics.  If we're going to start demanding "ethical" behavior over legal behavior, whose standards do we use?  According to a few folks I know, owning a firearm is unethical.  Are they right?  What makes them wrong and you (or anybody else) right?

This is why we have laws.  They are codified and let everybody know what's legal and what's illegal.  Demanding "more," when "more" is not codified or varies from person to person to community to community, only muddies the water and creates a patchwork quilt of pseudo-regulations.  

FYI, they already reserve - and use - the right to deny service to anybody.  

Mike

Quoted:


Ethics are not law and law is not ethics.  If we're going to start demanding "ethical" behavior over legal behavior, whose standards do we use?  According to a few folks I know, owning a firearm is unethical.  Are they right?  What makes them wrong and you (or anybody else) right?

This is why we have laws.  They are codified and let everybody know what's legal and what's illegal.  Demanding "more," when "more" is not codified or varies from person to person to community to community, only muddies the water and creates a patchwork quilt of pseudo-regulations.  

FYI, they already reserve - and use - the right to deny service to anybody.  

Mike

Quoted:
What if we looked at the sign this way.

If he is outright telling the "black community" that the MPD is watching and pulling people over guess who is not going to show up and buy guns.

I think he is just using the MPD to get the thugs away from is store.

Plus this is pathetic:
A total of 1,880 crime guns recovered in Milwaukee were linked to Badger
Badger isn't just the biggest seller of crime guns in Milwaukee, but among the biggest in the nation. Badger Outdoors was one of the top sellers a decade ago and was No. 1 as of 2005, according to federal data.

If they were serious about the integrity of their customers then they failed 1880+ times