Posted: 4/6/2008 7:59:57 AM EDT
I bet the SWAT team was wearing BDU's, too.  link  
I remember the flak that La Crosse County caught when they got this Bearcat a few years ago. I'm waiting for the critics who said it wasn't needed to start issuing retractions. Instead, they'll probably oppose replacing the passenger windshield. 
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Which is why the government took 6 years to "serve papers" on him. At which point he tried to murder the deputies, who were not there to arrest him or kick him off the property. Shooting at deputies does seem to be something the government takes more seriously than taxes. |
| hello. this is typical political grandstanding at its finest! someone tell me why the police ALWAYS confront the person at their residence, where you know they are going to have weapons. why didnt they wait until he was at a store and arrest him when he was getting in his car? reminds me of koresch, he was out in the open many times and they would have been able to take him peacably, but wanted to make a show of it. you want me to cry for police who blatantly put themselves in danger, not hardly. ill bet the guy who made the decision to get him at his house wasnt one of the guys dressed in full wanna be ninja uniforms. kirk |
From the original article:
It's the job of the county-elected Sheriff, or his/her deputies, to serve civil papers. In other words, they weren't at his door to arrest him. Not at first, anyway. BTW, I agree it makes sense--sometimes--to arrest people away from their |
Gee.. I don't know.. maybe if the guy would have PAID HIS TAXES...none of this would have happened..... Just sayin... And since when has a reasonable response to having papers served on you been to come out shooting with firearms and Improvised explosives??? |
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And since when has a reasonable response to having papers served on you been to come out shooting with firearms and Improvised explosives??? hello. you make my point exactly! you NEVER know how someone is going to react when confronted by the police or court papers. your not going to make me believe that they didnt have an idea this guy was anti-government and wouldnt go without a fight! they could have simply handed him the papers as he came out of a store to get into his car. kinda hard for him to much if he isnt in his car or house. like i said, just politics as usual. kirk |
kirkinwisc
Politics has nothing to do with this... This guy thru his behavior and actions brought this down on hims self. It's called personnel responsibility... Try to focus on the fact that what he did was wrong and endangered lives unnecessarily.. Most normal folks don't go off the deep end when being served papers (a daily occurrence in all 50 states thru out this country by the way...) and I would gather that a very few percentage of them , go and do what this guy did. Try to focus on HIS actions... which is what caused everything else... |
| hello. if politics had nothing to do with this, WHY didnt they serve the papers when he was somewhere other than his house? the authorities knew this guy was on the fringe and let him be in his house where he has all his weapons when they served the papers. you dont expect anyone to think that he was just going to say okay, thanks guys ill see you in court! you make my point again, most NORMAL folks dont go off the deep end. they new he wasnt normal. i am saying again, they could have easily served him away from his residence. dont think its politics? my local fish wrap has full size picture of local sherrif standing on side of truck saying how terrible it was. you must be blind if you cant see the steady progression of militarsation of the police and their over- zealousness to use it. ill tell you if an armored vehicle showed up with 11 ninjas i am not coming out either. kirk |
The LEO's (I assume 2) went on a monday to serve papers and were fired upon. (which I believe is a crime ) 4 days later they armored truck came out(prolly not to serve papers any longer).I'm not in favor of a police state anymore than anyone else, but if he only got bean bag rounds, he got off WAY too easy. |
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What an idiot. Taxes suck, but that's life. 5-6k over a period of time (years?) isn't really that much IMO. So he had his tantrum, and now he has to face the music. I'm glad noone was killed, that shows huge restraint on behlaf of the law. I'm also curious about the "grenades"...wtf did he get those? |
This guy is obviously a criminal. Would it be to much to think that maybe just MAYBE he was CCWing to? So then you confront him in the middle of the parking lot of the grocery store. He pulls out his pistol and starts blasting away...how many innocent people are going to be in the line of fire? How many of those people are going to panic and start running around like chickens with their heads cut off? Not to mention, there isn't exactly a lot of "planning" that goes into process service. Not like you trail this guy for days to get his routine down for christ sakes.
IED's? Or, maybe he went to the milsurp store and bought the hulls and rigged himself up some sort of fuse. That wouldn't be all that hard... |
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It is one thing if you are grilling burger and hot dogs in the back yard and the Big Black RV full of "Mall Ninjas" show up for no reason and use the ram on your front door. This is far from that scenario. The LEO s had a legal reason to be there. They were shot at and wisely pulled back. Now at this point they are not going to just walk away and let this guy go. But Why not just let him go? He was only protecting his property right? If he can justify to himself that shooting at LEO s (they were legally trying to serve him papers because HE hadn't paid his taxes) is a good idea, then he can justify shooting at anyone that he doesn't like. If they do just let him be, who will he decide is next in line deserving to dodge a few rounds? Gas station attendants? (High fuel prices ya know). Teachers? (the quality of education isn't what it used to be). He broke the law and proved that he was a danger. LEO s have to take action and try and arrest him. They take an oath to do that. Why would they take this guy down at his home that is out in the sticks instead of the local WAL-MART or Kwik Trip? So that they could limit the number of innocent bystanders that may get caught up in any possible violence that this guy maybe/is capable of causing. Ps those impacts to the windshield look like they were caused by something a whole lot bigger than your average deer rifle. This not meant to be a rant, Please read with a conversational tone in mind. |
What? Nobody in WI hunts with 300 Weatherby or 338 WinMag anymore? If he used a .50 BMG, we'd have heard about it. EVERYBODY would have heard about it 
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Money. Police serve papers all the time. Making the police watch someone, then follow the person to a public place would take a lot of time, which means we have to hire more officers, which means more money. If police did it that way, then we would all be complaining about police playing "ninja" and wasting our tax dollars. |
Not to mention the people bitching when you start serving them with divorce papers when their standing in line at the grocery store or sitting on a bar stool. |
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$5K in taxes or $1.50 in taxes - as soon as you start shooting at uniformed officers they are not going to leave you alone. I am impressed that the glass took multiple hits on the passenger side and held. I would have wet myself if I was sitting in the passenger seat. Av. |
Wow... you have your tinfoil on just a little bit two tight.. You assume quite abit... You assume that every LEO knows the mental profile of every person they serve.. You assume that they have the resources and manpower to follow this guy everywhere he goes so they can pick the best place to serve him.... You assume that everyone who gets served is going to react like he did... and then to top it off, you feel his actions are justifiable because of the way the LEO's show up ..AFTER he shoots at them and then you make a statement that you will do the same thing.....Nice.... Better dust off your Posse Commitatus lifetime membership card.....
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| hello. harv24, i think you are the one who is a little kooky! show me where im assuming anything! i am saying that there is no way they didnt know that this guy was unstable! go back and read what i said ( if you do know how to read? ) i never said everyone who gets served is going to react like him, i said they had to have known he would act like he did based on previous info on the guy. also <edit - HD40>, please show me where i said his actions were justified! i never said that once! i said what did they think would happen when they showed up with an armored car and a bunch of ninjas? how do you know he even shot at them first? oh, thats right they are the government, and everyone knows that the government never lies! and yes, i wouldnt walk out with my hands up either if 11 ninjas showed up at my house. you must have never heard the saying " hi, were from the government and were here to help you! " now, go back to hiding under your rock and drinking kool-aid. kirk |
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Kirk, Two deputies showed up at his house to serve him papers. Not 11 in a ninja-mobile. Let's assume those two deputies knew he was a nutjob. (And I tend to agree that they probably knew he was Posse-Comitatus, which is why they bothered sending two. Normally only one deputy serves papers, around here anyway.) So, knowing about the [hypothetical] nutjob threats he's made in the past, the Sheriff's Department doesn't try serving him with the ninja-mobile. Even though it would help ensure the good guys went home safe at the end of the shift. Even though the guys in brown wouldn't have an excuse to go after Fido. Instead, the Sheriff's Department avoids escalating the tension. They handle it as a routine paper service, and send two uniformed deputies to the house to hand the nutjob an envelope. They didn't follow him around, "spying" on him, and getting his tinfoil all tight. They just treated him with respect and openness. So, Kirk, a couple of questions, if you'll play along. Is it OK for nutjob to start shooting? What should the Sheriff's Department have done differently? (This is a serious question, because from my Monday-morning chair, this looks like a textbook example of good work. But that doesn't mean there isn't something that could be improved, or handled differently, or looked at from a different perspective.) I'm all ears, and willing to learn new ways of approaching these situations. 
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nationwide Here in the southwest part of the state 338 and 300 anythings are your average deer rifles.hat Stay safe. |
Big +1 |
I think you need to read what you wrote because I see a whole bunch of assumption in your text. I resist the urge to post as much as I am able but I just had to crawl out of my bunker for this one. I think someone may have watched a Conspiracy Theory marathon while their parents were gone for the weekend. That is why there is a rating system for movies to avoid children seeing things they do not understand and formulating the wrong ideas. Why is the SWAT/ERT team being refered to as NINJAS? I know several SWAT members and none of them are the stormtroopers portrayed. Why does there have to be more to the story? Why should only one deputy have gone to serve the papers if they "knew he wasn't normal?" Life looks a lot different outside your parents basement. People should need permit to breed. |
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60 year old white guys are always fair game for PR stunts like this. Going after MS-13 in urban areas in the same fashion? Why that would offend the Hispanic voter base! This was nothing more than justifying the purchase of these "police" vehicles to the sheeple. Moral of the story: Police are to protect the power brokers, not you. You are own your OWN! We have some good candidates for the ATF here. They have lots of cool guns! Go for it! |
Wehrwulf
Wow.. did you buddy Kirk (or Neighbor.. ) sent you over here..???So if The LEO's would have just walked up to this guys house and he shot them dead, you would be OK with that... cause they did not use there "JBT mobile" And as far as your concerend.. the problem revolves around the Jack booted thug LEO's and the 60yr old had absoulutely no role or responsibility in this what so ever??? What the hell do you guys eat up there that makes you that screwy??? CWD tainted Venison...... (or is that a conspiracy also......
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| This was a no-brainer for the Police. For public safety's sake you want the potental problem contained. First, I don't think its logistically (time/manpower) effctlive in the jurisdiction involved to surveil the suspect for God knows how long until he leaves his residence. Secondly, the first rule of tactical engagement is to contain the situation so the goof doesn't go mobile and end up carjacking and killing grandma Kowalski down the block (whose family would then sue the Police for not taking the appropriate measure of containing the incident.) The suspect forced the play and he should be held responsible for his actions. |
wow......reading these threads just reinforces my position that I will continue to be very cautious who I "associate" with from these boards. It is hard to believe some of these ludicris comments are for real.... Glenn and Harv....I unfortunately think your common sense is falling on def ears..... |
No sh*t... are some of you out of your friggin' minds? This wasn't "JBT theatre"... those officers showed amazing restraint. They even took the guy alive with less-lethal after he'd tried to kill any number of them... how many of you would show the same degree of forbearance? This whole incident started because they sent two deputies to serve papers... read that again. Two deputies. Serving papers. The homeowner had refused to pay his taxes... and whatever your feelings on taxes (nobody likes them... join the club), refusing to pay them will bring about legal consequences. The deputies didn't come rolling in first thing with a JBT-mobile, a tank, or whatever term-of-art you want to throw at their armored vehicle. They brought that in afterwards... at which time they were fired on again (and with pretty fair marksmanship by the looks of that Bearcat... would you have wanted to be the #2 officer in a regular cruiser with that shot placement?) Some of you need to sell your guns, cancel your internet, and move to a desert island someplace... you're embarrassing the rest of us. 
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hello. its too damn bad if you dont like my comments or some others comments! hmmm, you guys sound like left wingers to me, only certain ammendments apply apparently the first amendment does not? open board, i will post my feelings. dont like it? oh well! if you dont think the police has become way over-milatarised, thats your opinion. i happen to believe they have, and use certain situations to promote their agenda. do i like cops? NO! almost everyone of them i have ever met is a class A prick! i have a couple of officers in my local dept that i do consider friends, but they are the exception, not the rule. see, ive been through their propaganda bullshit when they tried to get me to prison for speaking my first amendment rights, and saying how dangerous the types of guns i own are. not a single one of them told the truth, even the local sherrif new the truth but wouldnt stand up and do whats right. thank the good lord that i had an exceptional lawyer who is very pro-gun to get me out of it. so, if i live in a tinfoil hat, its a good reason. they all know that i will not go so easy the next time they try to bring false charges against me. so yes, if they show up with an armored truck and ninjas, i will be ready. kirk |
Hmmm. So because the system worked, and you beat the false charges before, you're going to shoot it out with them the next time? Do you know how you sound? I doubt you have any idea. As for the "militarization" of the police, it seems to me that it served them well in this incident, particularly considering that the "militarized" gear they used was purely defensive. They didn't use a ma-deuce or an Abrams to chop his house to pieces... they used armor to protect themselves from his incoming rounds, and when given the opportunity to shoot him, they instead opted for less-lethal and took him alive. The "militarization" was clearly more on the suspect's part, considering he was throwing home-made grenades. Seems to me you've got a textbook incident here, with a great deal of restraint shown on the part of the sheriff, and appropriate use of their tools. Their "militarized gear" saved officers' lives (that may not be a big concern for you), and ironically enough, also saved the suspect's life, since it allowed them to get close enough to flush him out and bean-bag him. Without those armored vehicles, they'd have been unable to approach, and probably would have had to take the suspect out with long-rifle fire. Either that, or they'd have had to wait until he went to sleep and make entry into his undoubtedly-fortified residence, risking yet more officers lives (again, probably not a big concern for you). This incident went very well; I don't see the problem |