Posted: 3/12/2005 1:39:54 PM EDT
| 13 people shot and 6 or 8 dead at the Sheraton in Brookfield. I know this probably sounds cold right now but I can't help but wonder what type of firearm was used? Obviously something with a hi-cap mag I would guess. |
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Good God, there were thirty of us in Madison shooting IDPA when this happened. Thirty law abiding citizens who could be out there to stop things like this if we had overuled that damn veto. We need to get the legislature off their asses and send Doyle a message. I think its time for an open carry protest in Madison to show our reps that we're serious about our rights, and our lives. |
I would consider it over the summer, where the only thing at stake is losing my job. No way I'm doing it during classes. I'd have to buy a Raven or a Jennings so I wouldn't cry when they took my gun away. I'd also like to have atleast a wink-and-nod agreement with some well funded pro-ccw org that could provide for my defense. Without that, its kind of pointless. We WILL lose in Madison court. I personally do not have the resource to get embroiled in legal battles with the state. Besides, that's the type of thing that requires a genuine legal strategy, not just frustration. With the state preemption, we're free to pick the court we want to fight in, and go get arrested in their jurisdiction. Madison seems like a crappy place to start other than the political statement of the capitol. ------------------------- Aside from that issue, I don't know how much CCW would have helped. Most all CCW legislation excludes carrying in places of worship. I'm pretty sure that last year's PPA did also. I never understood the logic behind such provisions. CCW laws basically recognize that society is dangerous and that Citizens have the right to protect themselves with arms. However, they'd like to amend it to say that you are legally bound to victimhood when attending worship services, and leave no discretion to the privately held house of worship. I always thought there was a substantial argument that the provisions are anti-religion because they discourage attendance by making people choose between their physical safety and their spirituality. It the wake of this incident, that argument might be taken more seriously. |
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Adrian and I were having a conversation about an open carry protest after our Criminal Law & Justice class last week. If the ENTIRE event is organized and executed as a freedom of speech event (not a civil revolt) the carrying of openly displayed weapons cannot constitutionally be interpreted as a violation of pubic ordinance such as disturbing the peace or dissorderly condust. The line between simply carrying a gun openly and carrying a gun openly with the intent to make a political statement is narrow, but there is a major difference in the way the legal system interprets the actions. It's a lot easier to envoke the 1st Amendment than anything else, especially in Madison. |
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Definitely. If it were well organized, and well attended I think we could be very successful. The police are not going to come in and arrest 50 people who are protesting. One or two, maybe, but not 50. Plus, there is NO LAW in Wisconsin that prohibits the open carrying of weapons. We'd have to carefully choose our place - (probably couldnt bring a gun into the capitol), make sure we follow all other laws (not concealed, not carried in vehicles, etc). They did this in Michigan and Ohio and were very successful in getting CCW laws passed. They marched with unloaded firearms, and their right to do so was protected by the first amendment. |
Ummm Taz, as po-po you're specifically exempted from the carry laws. I think it'd be a bit hard to arrest you for carrying off-duty, wouldn't it? (Not picking, just pointing it out) |
Playing devil's advocate, he's exempted from the concealed carry law--see 941.23. He could still be cited for "disorderly conduct" for openly carrying a firearm w/o visible badge, if that's the route any enforcement would take. Or, depending on the political climate of his department, an IA investigation into "conduct unbecoming an officer" if he open-carried off-duty. You know, for not carrying concealed, as some departments require; or for displaying his department's name while engaged in political activity (by having a badge displayed next to the open-carried firearm). If I attend, I'll probably carry concealed, with a sign asking, "Do I have a gun?" 
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I believe Lux is correct. In short, if you are a sworn officer with arrest powers, you The State AG's are still issuing opinions on this, however; so you may not do the time, but you'll probably do the ride if you carry in places like NYC or Chicago. California has already released it's opinion, and you'd be GTG in LosAngeles or SanFransisco. YMMV, IANAL, etc. yada, yada. What we need is for a friendly Sherriff to deputize us all...
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Nope, IIRC corrections officers, unless they have arrest powers(which they don't in Wi according to a former coworker who is now a corrections officer) than they don't fall into the National LEO CCW bill. |
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Yes and no, State CO's are not LE. County, some are and some aren't. Depends on on the department. |
Weapon used was a beretta 9mm
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A I understand the situation; the CCW for retired LE is FUBAR. Training and certification requirments. Be a miracle if it ever actually comes to be. The airline pilot carry thing got FUBAR kind of the same way. Too many committees trying to sooth everybodies concerns. As a small-time FFL, I always breathe a sigh of relief when I DON'T get the phone call from ATF after a local incident. Don't wish any bad to Fletcher's. It's bad enough when ATF calls for a trace (last one was for a Ruger SA that I sold in the '70's), without it being something horrible like this. |
Those must have fallen behind a file cabinet. 4473's are destroyed. Otherwise BATFE would be proprieting over an illegal national firearms database. |
   
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Funny, I didn't even think of that, but they probably just pulled 4473s from the milwaukee gun shops........ Well I'd like to think that anyway..... |
| Illegal database? Here's the story: a dealer MUST keep his 4473's as long a he holds the license. When or if he give up the license, ATF requires all records to be sent to their facility in, I think, WV. They scan or micro-film all the records. The ATF lady that last called me for a trace told me they recently had one that they found in their closed dealer database. Better hope your dealer buddy has a non-fatal boating accident on his way to the Post Office after he retires. |
| He said "4473's", but the same applies to the background check forms. The dealer is required to keep them with the 4473. NICS and WI Handgun Hotline are not supposed to keep any records. The NRA sued the feds over NICS keeping records even short-term for "quality audit" purposes. IIRC, the NRA won. Who knows though. It's so incredibly easy to just dump a load of stuff on a disc. |
I dont sell guns.|
The 4473 is the yellow Fed sheet. The dealer calls NICS (FBI) for a background check on long guns and the call info is recorded on the back of the 4473. In states like WI that have their own system; the dealer has to have the customer fill out another (white) sheet and call Madison for the check. So for handguns, BOTH forms have to be filled out, but the call only goes to Madison. The state system was in place before the Fed system so they kept it for handguns. The interesting thing here is the people at NICS don't know or care if the state has their own system. I've mistakenly called NICS on handguns and received the OK from them. WI is not real happy when a dealer does that. I'm sure they're both using the same database. |