[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Set me straight (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 5/1/2009 11:58:30 AM EDT
I saw a guy test driving a new Dodge Ram pickup this morning and it's been bugging me ever since.  How many of you would buy a new Chrysler or GM product today, if you were in the market for a new vehicle? ETA; or any brand that would be in either of their current financial or political positions |
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I am a die hard Chevy man and I will NOT ever buy a Chevy or GM product anymore... If they do like the did to Chrysler and steel the company and GIVE the it to the union.
The unions hate the "management" and since the engineers are "management" I am sure the quality will hit rock bottom. The union doesn't shit for designing cars. This is going to be really interesting Also Obama it a thief! If Ford stays above water my next (new) vehicel will be a ford  ( I really don't like fords) (But I would get an older Chevy)
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I'd trade my current ride for a Jeep (Chrysler) today if they put a Diesel engine in the Rubicon Unlimited 
ETA one could argue no one at the "Big 3" knows how to design cars (least of all the union). Here's Ford's answer to their problems LINK
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I bought a Dodge last summer because I wanted the Cummins and they are the only one using it. It's been an outstanding truck so far. I got the 6 speed manual with the big NV5600 trans. Their automatic trannys can't hold up to the torque of the Cummins. The way I see it: Dodge has the best motor (Cummins). Chevy has the best transmission (Allison) Ford has the looks. And they are all crooks, like all corporations. IMHO |
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Grew up in Detroit. Have/had relatives working for each of the Big 3, including my Grandmother who spent 30 at Chryslers, and got me summer jobs at Dodge Main while in college.
The only one of the Big 3 whose products I would consider buying now would be a Ford, since they did not take any bail-out money; GM and Chrysler are especially on the shit list, since they are now joint ventures of the government and the labor unions. SEE GAZ, UAZ, Lada, Trabant... |
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Quoted: <snip> That's pretty much how I see it too. Your post is the one that matches my thoughts the most so far. Chrysler 0% return on taxpayer funded bailouts UAW owns 55% after killing Daimler/Cerebus groups capital investment Obama owns 8% Italians own 25% Taxpayers still on the hook GM 0% return on taxpayer funded bailouts UAW obligations unsustainable Obama fired the CEO Taxpayers still on the hook I'd rather walk than support that horseshit  |
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I was going to get a new Chev 3/4 diesel about 2 months ago. The reason I haven't doesn't have anything to do with GM's current condition. If they file chapter stiffem I believe they will still make trucks. I believe they will honor warranties.
The reason I don't own one is I think they will put a green tax on anyone not driving what they want you to drive. I can hardly wait to pay 40,000 + for a truck and not be able to pay the green tax and then the fuel goes way up. I don't really need one I just want one. I only hope we can start to fix this way of thinking after the next election. The dudes in office are trying their best to make sure we won't have a candidate by ass fucking anyone that looks good in an advance. |
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I'm going with GM......PCR and I were counting all of the Pontiac's on our way to work the other day (4 or 5 if I remember right) and we couldn't help to notice the overwhelming numbers of GM cars on the road.
There must be an over-abundance of parts out there and not to mention......they are indeed a good vehicle. |
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It would be interesting to sift through people's lives and see if they apply their belief of not supporting companies that have accepted government subsidies and bailouts to all of their purchasing and financial decisions or just the automobile manufacturers. Personally, I suspect the latter and just more of the same old double standards I have come to expect.
If I was in the market for a full size truck, it sure would not be for what Toyota and Nissan are trying to pass off as competitors in that market. I wouldn't mind a new Corvette or Camaro, either. |
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Quoted: It would be interesting to sift through people's lives and see if they apply their belief of not supporting companies that have accepted government subsidies and bailouts to all of their purchasing and financial decisions or just the automobile manufacturers. Personally, I suspect the latter and just more of the same old double standards I have come to expect. Examples? |
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Nothing but Chevy's in my driveway now.
In the future? Smaller vehicles...Toyotas. Larger vehicles...Fords. Sure, Obama can say that GM and Chrysler,"warranties are backed with the full faith and confidence of the US Government" all he wants. Reality is that the US govt is ass-deep in so much debt (and getting deeper by the day) that "faith" and "confidence" in the fiscal health of the US Gov't went down the crapper long ago. The words "faith" and "confidence", simply don't belong in the same sentence as the word, "government"...particularly after the November 2008 elections. Having a coalition of government bureaucrats and union "officials" owning and operating a major corporation is destined for nothing but failure. Having a "government" of left-wing moon-bats and socialist environmental-nazis making decisions as to what cars and trucks to design is nothing more than a disaster in the making. Automobiles are an enormously engineering-intensive endeavor, GM and Chrysler engineers don't even enter into the equation any longer (insofar as the destiny of their respective companies are concerned). So what is the motivation for them to design competitive, safe, and environmentally intelligent products? Meh...GM and Chrysler are done. I'll still buy older GM's in the future though...the "pre-Government Motors" vehicles. |
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I have been eyeballing those megacab dodge diesels, I would want to go redneck limo style, longbed, dually, big chrome stacks, huge lift and monster tires. like president unicorn is going to let them build that stuff anymore! then I shall build my own, and run it on nothing but chemicals known to the people's republic of commi-fornia to cause, birth defects, cancer, and "global warming" and I will let it sit and idle at every stop I make when I run errands.  
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I'd buy a GM still. I do think they made some bad decisions, but I think in large part, the unions and the government's handling of the unions are the main contributors. The Unions are only on the take, and they have crossed the line in from fair compensation to greed long ago. I still want someone to make a 4x4, half ton, short box, with a V8 and a manual 6 speed... seems manual transmissions have gone away in half ton pickups as they have become more and more popular for soccer mom grocery haulers 5.3L Chevy backed by a 6 speed would be kick ass.. |
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I have been eyeballing those megacab dodge diesels, I would want to go redneck limo style, longbed, dually, big chrome stacks, huge lift and monster tires. And a truly nice truck you would have if "Hecho en Mexico" was what you wanted. The new dodge Ram is more foreign made (BY FAR) than any of the products that come out of our plants in OHIO, Tennesse, Georgia, Indiana. Just sayin........ |
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I see it just the opposite.
I'm not avoiding them because they got bailout money. The .gov bailed them out, using my money, against my will. And they're loosing money on each car they sell. The least I can do is get part of my loss back by getting a vehicle from them for below cost.
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This is how I see it.
The government regulated the auto industry into the ground with mountains of impossible CAFE and CARB regulations and standards. The unions ran the auto industry into the ground with unreasonable regulations and entitlements. Now the two entities most responsible for the death of the US auto industry suddenly find themselves as majority owners. Do you really think they have a clue how to run it efficiently and design better vehicles than everyone else? Personally, I believe that GM/Chrysler (henceforth known as Government Motors) will churn-out nothing but crap and stay on the government dole forever. |
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Quoted: This is how I see it. The government regulated the auto industry into the ground with mountains of impossible CAFE and CARB regulations and standards. The unions ran the auto industry into the ground with unreasonable regulations and entitlements. Now the two entities most responsible for the death of the US auto industry suddenly find themselves as majority owners. Do you really think they have a clue how to run it efficiently and design better vehicles than everyone else? Personally, I believe that GM/Chrysler (henceforth known as Government Motors) will churn-out nothing but crap and stay on the government dole forever. + All of that I'll also add another point. These two companies found a way to not be successful during the largest credit bubble the world has ever seen. A credit bubble conceived and nurtured by the US government, (via the community reinvestment act and other forced lending practices. which lead to Americans insane over-spending, and in turn, generated all time highs in tax generation). But did .gov use the new massive tax incomes to our advantage? Fuck no! The went out and got "leveraged" too, with our money. While we were busy putting ourselves in record high debt, they were making us look like rookies, from municipal bonds to US treasuries. Spend baby, SPEND! So all parties were enjoying record income numbers, yet still managed to miss-manage the money, and get us so far in to debt that we can not continue without, you guessed it, MORE DEBT. WTF? Now, the so very few of us who DO pay taxes and who DIDN'T live beyond our means, are expected to jump in and join the stupidity so we can all play ball for another day? No fucking thanks. Or, as another poster in GD so eloquently put it, (about a month ago, in the thread about GMs bailouts and CEO firing), "If you're going to buy another new GM, you sure must love the taste of Obamas cock in your mouth" I lol'd. |
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Quoted:
This is how I see it. The government regulated the auto industry into the ground with mountains of impossible CAFE and CARB regulations and standards. The unions ran the auto industry into the ground with unreasonable regulations and entitlements. Now the two entities most responsible for the death of the US auto industry suddenly find themselves as majority owners. I'll agree that those were contributing factors, but why is that how these companies have been managed rarely if ever gets questioned around here? Seems a lot of folks believe that the managers of these companies were simply unwitting victims in the whole ordeal. Per a thread in GD about this: Quoted:
I blame management for going into to much debt, designing cars that don't last, changing the styles every year, marketing a 25,000 purchase on the "wow" factor, having too many safety problems that require recalls, generally only caring about next quarters stock price, paying executives way too much, giving executives lucrative pensions after only a few years employment, shipping US jobs to Canada, mexico and other outside the US locations, treating employees shitty enough they have to have a union, having their own finance arm of the company, leasing vehicles that they must take back after 3 years instead of selling them, thinking quality is about options, and generally running the company into the ground all the while taking large payments for themselves. That about sums it up I think. Bingo. Do you really think they have a clue how to run it efficiently and design better vehicles than everyone else? Personally, I believe that GM/Chrysler (henceforth known as Government Motors) will churn-out nothing but crap and stay on the government dole forever. I'll hope for the best and wait and see. The government managed to make a success story out of a bunch of bankrupt eastern railroads, maybe they can pull this one off, too. At this point, I do not believe it is the beginning of the American Trabant that so many appear to want to believe. |
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It would be interesting to sift through people's lives and see if they apply their belief of not supporting companies that have accepted government subsidies and bailouts to all of their purchasing and financial decisions or just the automobile manufacturers. Personally, I suspect the latter and just more of the same old double standards I have come to expect. Examples? The most glaring example are the members who rant about socialism even as their whole livelihood depends on accepting money from it. If were were to look through the finances and purchasing decisions of people shunning automakers for accepting government help, would we find that they continue to do business with any of the myriad financial institutions that have taken bailout money? How about manufacturers and retailers that support socialism and outright communism in other countries? Etc, etc, etc. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It would be interesting to sift through people's lives and see if they apply their belief of not supporting companies that have accepted government subsidies and bailouts to all of their purchasing and financial decisions or just the automobile manufacturers. Personally, I suspect the latter and just more of the same old double standards I have come to expect. Examples? The most glaring example are the members who rant about socialism even as their whole livelihood depends on accepting money from it. If were were to look through the finances and purchasing decisions of people shunning automakers for accepting government help, would we find that they continue to do business with any of the myriad financial institutions that have taken bailout money? How about manufacturers and retailers that support socialism and outright communism in other countries? Etc, etc, etc. Yeah, I understood the premise of your point, but wondered if there's a specific list of what you had in mind. In my case, I can only think of one, (the outfit that processes our credit cards is a branch of a now bailed-out large national bank). But it would be a huge expense (around $7k, and miles of red tape) to jump ship due to these very recent events, and there isn't really a wise place to jump "to" either, as far as I can see. Catch 22. I'm not sure that's an expense I want to try to pass on to my customers either, when the tide is still changing. But back to your point. My kids go to public school and I drive on city, state, county and federal highways daily. All are receiving bailout money. We're all guilty at some point. |
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I see it just the opposite. I'm not avoiding them because they got bailout money. The .gov bailed them out, using my money, against my will. And they're loosing money on each car they sell. The least I can do is get part of my loss back by getting a vehicle from them for below cost. Why must you always make sense of everything? Can't you just go with the flow?
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I see it just the opposite. I'm not avoiding them because they got bailout money. The .gov bailed them out, using my money, against my will. And they're loosing money on each car they sell. The least I can do is get part of my loss back by getting a vehicle from them for below cost. Why must you always make sense of everything? Can't you just go with the flow?
ethical egoism: Selfishness alone will therefore motivate each agent to adopt a basic set of rules which will allow for a civilized community.
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<snip> That's pretty much how I see it too. Your post is the one that matches my thoughts the most so far. Chrysler 0% return on taxpayer funded bailouts UAW owns 55% after killing Daimler/Cerebus groups capital investment Obama owns 8% Italians own 25% Taxpayers still on the hook GM 0% return on taxpayer funded bailouts UAW obligations unsustainable Obama fired the CEO Taxpayers still on the hook I'd rather walk than support that horseshit
this.... fuck'em, I'd buy a import before one of their rides 
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| Considering that the Federal Government can't make a profit running a brothel, I figure GM and Chrysler are doomed. |
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Quoted: I drive between 30 and 40k a year and I've had Ford's and Chevy's, but to date my 08 Dodge 1500 is the best truck I've ever had. Buy what you want and like, I don't care. I laugh when people actually get worked up over this type of crap. <sigh>  It sickens me when people don't get worked up over this type of crap. psst, the thread is about the government interfering with the free market and with capitalism in very extreme ways, not what 'brand name' you like to see sitting in your driveway. RIF. |
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I drive between 30 and 40k a year and I've had Ford's and Chevy's, but to date my 08 Dodge 1500 is the best truck I've ever had. Buy what you want and like, I don't care. I laugh when people actually get worked up over this type of crap. <sigh>
It sickens me when people don't get worked up over this type of crap. psst, the thread is about the government interfering with the free market and with capitalism in very extreme ways, not what 'brand name' you like to see sitting in your driveway. RIF. Good point. But demand drives manufacturers to design and market certain products. Like full size pick up trucks with large towing capacity. The japs don't make one so looking for a Honda or Toyota with a big diesel in it is not an option. I will not buy another Ford truck. I got rid of my Ford to get my Dodge. It was my second Ford truck. Their transmissions SUCK. I called two tranny shops before my Dodge purchase and both said the same thing. "For every few Chevy's and Dodges we get in for repair we get 100 Fords". Once when AAA was towing my Ford home, I asked the driver what brand he tows most and he told me he has late model Ford trucks on the hook all the time and a couple of Dodges and Chevys here and there. I have to have a full size truck with a large towing capacity for several reasons. Unless I was going to buy a team of mules I didn't have many other options. I think if you looked hard enough you could find something wrong with just about every product. Whether it's overpriced or inferior quality or made overseas or donates money to anti gun/anti liberty organizations etc. It's a big list now and the averge Joe doesn't pay attention. He just wants and buys. I totally see you're point and concern though and agree with it. |
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Quoted: I totally see you're point and concern though and agree with it. Likewise  And I'm not immune to the brand wars or the disappointments many of us have had with our favorite brands either. I'm a bow-tie man, and have been loyal to Chevy/GMC pickups with the exception of a few Toyotas over the years. The past few Silverados/Sierras I've owned, and including all the ones my father and friends have owned, have ALL had brake problems, not to mention the other smaller problems we've experienced. (all were 1/2 ton light duty pickups) I look at this and think, "GM has been making pickups for a loooong ass time. How tough is it to get a set of brakes right?". I'd gladly pay these extra cost directly to the dealership at the time of purchase, rather than to the repair shop later on, while I wait to get back on the road. So I may have ultimately gotten fed up with that shit at some point, and taken my money elsewhere. Many certainly have already. But this situation is entirely different than the above, as you've already acknowledged. I won't buy my next vehicle from the government. |
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I drive between 30 and 40k a year and I've had Ford's and Chevy's, but to date my 08 Dodge 1500 is the best truck I've ever had. Buy what you want and like, I don't care. I laugh when people actually get worked up over this type of crap. <sigh>
It sickens me when people don't get worked up over this type of crap. psst, the thread is about the government interfering with the free market and with capitalism in very extreme ways, not what 'brand name' you like to see sitting in your driveway. RIF. I love you ODT 
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... I got rid of my Ford to get my Dodge. It was my second Ford truck. Their transmissions SUCK. You ditched a Ford for a Dodge, because the Ford's tranny sucked?! You had transmission problems and deliberately bought a DODGE? Maybe he got a truck with a manual transmission.
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... I got rid of my Ford to get my Dodge. It was my second Ford truck. Their transmissions SUCK. You ditched a Ford for a Dodge, because the Ford's tranny sucked?! You had transmission problems and deliberately bought a DODGE? Tranny problems, wiring problems, cracked exhaust manifolds, front brake problems, horrible gas mileage, catastrophic rear axle bearing failure. The winshield wiper linkage disintegrated and I had to pull half the fucking dash apart to get to it and fix it. I build/drive race cars. I have built both Chevy and Ford engines from the bare block up. Fuck Ford. They have some of the dumbest designs I could possibly think of. Ever lay under a Ford for an hour trying to get the stationary alignment pins on the converter into the tight tolerance holes in the flexplate? FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How about the Ford water pump married to the timing cover? That's some brilliant engineering there. Ever have the little shit ass pin on the Ford cam that fit's in the top timing gear break? That's a lot of fun as the crank continues to turn smashing your pistons into any valves that are open at the time. Lets not forget the 2+ foot long oil pick up tube that runs from the oil pump to the pan sump on all ford big blocks. That was fucking brilliant. Ford also is the only manufacturer with a different firing order. No standardization there. As for the diesel motors, the Cummins is far superior to the Powerstroke or the Duramax being inline rather than a "V" design eliminating pressure on the cylinder walls. Which greatly increases engine life. At this point my racing buddy/mentor and myself will NOT work on anyones Ford. You think I'm bitching? You oughta hear him.
ETA. Almost forgot how nice it is having the Ford distributor right in front of the carb to make carb tuning/removal so much more enjoyable. 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... I got rid of my Ford to get my Dodge. It was my second Ford truck. Their transmissions SUCK. You ditched a Ford for a Dodge, because the Ford's tranny sucked?! You had transmission problems and deliberately bought a DODGE? Tranny problems, wiring problems, cracked exhaust manifolds, front brake problems, horrible gas mileage, catastrophic rear axle bearing failure. The winshield wiper linkage disintegrated and I had to pull half the fucking dash apart to get to it and fix it. I build/drive race cars. I have built both Chevy and Ford engines from the bare block up. Fuck Ford. They have some of the dumbest designs I could possibly think of. Ever lay under a Ford for an hour trying to get the stationary alignment pins on the converter into the tight tolerance holes in the flexplate? FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How about the Ford water pump married to the timing cover? That's some brilliant engineering there. Ever have the little shit ass pin on the Ford cam that fit's in the top timing gear break? That's a lot of fun as the crank continues to turn smashing your pistons into any valves that are open at the time. Lets not forget the 2+ foot long oil pick up tube that runs from the oil pump to the pan sump on all ford big blocks. That was fucking brilliant. Ford also is the only manufacturer with a different firing order. No standardization there. As for the diesel motors, the Cummins is far superior to the Powerstroke or the Duramax being inline rather than a "V" design eliminating pressure on the cylinder walls. Which greatly increases engine life. At this point my racing buddy/mentor and myself will NOT work on anyones Ford. You think I'm bitching? You oughta hear him. So, what you're saying is, that you won't help me with the restoration of my '69 Mustang... |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: ... I got rid of my Ford to get my Dodge. It was my second Ford truck. Their transmissions SUCK. You ditched a Ford for a Dodge, because the Ford's tranny sucked?! You had transmission problems and deliberately bought a DODGE? Tranny problems, wiring problems, cracked exhaust manifolds, front brake problems, horrible gas mileage, catastrophic rear axle bearing failure. The winshield wiper linkage disintegrated and I had to pull half the fucking dash apart to get to it and fix it. I build/drive race cars. I have built both Chevy and Ford engines from the bare block up. Fuck Ford. They have some of the dumbest designs I could possibly think of. Ever lay under a Ford for an hour trying to get the stationary alignment pins on the converter into the tight tolerance holes in the flexplate? FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How about the Ford water pump married to the timing cover? That's some brilliant engineering there. Ever have the little shit ass pin on the Ford cam that fit's in the top timing gear break? That's a lot of fun as the crank continues to turn smashing your pistons into any valves that are open at the time. Lets not forget the 2+ foot long oil pick up tube that runs from the oil pump to the pan sump on all ford big blocks. That was fucking brilliant. Ford also is the only manufacturer with a different firing order. No standardization there. As for the diesel motors, the Cummins is far superior to the Powerstroke or the Duramax being inline rather than a "V" design eliminating pressure on the cylinder walls. Which greatly increases engine life. At this point my racing buddy/mentor and myself will NOT work on anyones Ford. You think I'm bitching? You oughta hear him. So, what you're saying is, that you won't help me with the restoration of my '69 Mustang...  I'll help! I'm an expert at putting cars on blocks and stealing removing tires |